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Nexus Forums _ Statistics and Formulas Board _ Hit Vs. Damage

Posted by: Virk Jun 21 2007, 10:34 AM

I was wondering what they really do. I see a lot of warriors running arround with Deamon hearts that have more hit and I always figured that Luck amulets would be better given they all a lot more damage. Do wars get more of a boost having more hit then dam?

Posted by: Vortextk Jun 21 2007, 12:20 PM

I believe that because of how the damage formulas are setup, warriors get a boost to damage from dam, but rogues get a LOT more. Thus, you see rogues maxing out their damage, especially early on, because they only get backstab/flank by raising their cunning and they get more out of damage than warriors anyway. Warriors are always able to hit 8 monsters with a PA right out of the box because of self buffs and since damage isn't as helpful as it is on rogues, a lot of hit can help them hit the corner targets better.

Also, hearts are usually cheaper =P

I believe that's all correct but not 100%.

Posted by: Tynan Jun 21 2007, 12:40 PM

QUOTE(Virk @ Jun 21 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]35459[/snapback]

I was wondering what they really do. I see a lot of warriors running arround with Deamon hearts that have more hit and I always figured that Luck amulets would be better given they all a lot more damage. Do wars get more of a boost having more hit then dam?


Frog is correct in that rogues get a larger boost due to DAM than warriors do. This is because Invisible*Fury multiplies DAM, and on C1-C5 this is x54-x108, and since warriors have no Invisible (normally), R1-R6 is only x8-x81. Warriors do get a larger Ingress, but that does not help DAM.

Thus, DAM for rogues counts a lot more, particularly when comparing lower Cunnings to lower Rages. As for what DAM does, well, it basically adds a bit of power to each swing of your weapon, so basically DAM increases...damage. HIT apparently increases accuracy and possible how often you crit (red flash on enemy for double damage or so), but quantifying the bonus is hard.

Rogues use New Luck Amulets at level 99 because they get a MASSIVE boost from them due to their high multipliers on DAM and the fact they do not get Ambrosias - warriors do, and each has 5 DAM/HIT and better AC, so no warrior in their right mind would take NLAs over Ambrosias (in my opinion).

In fact, Ambrosias are viable until ee san, even sam san (though by sam san you really should have ADHs/ACs), for warriors, as they really are not bad. The AC is a little weak at ee san, but the stats are acceptable. Rogues do not have the luxury of amazing non-Vortex hand items, so they need to use Luck Amulets/Claws/Spirit Masks/Daemon Hearts to keep up.

At the sam san level, you need to keep in mind a few things:

1.) Ancient Daemon Hearts (ADHs) have -1 AC better than Ancient Luck Amulets (ALAs), and when on Rage, each AC point is very important. Very. If you saw how much damage I take on R6 in Bandit3 you'd know why each point counts.

2.) ADHs have 6 DAM and 10 HIT, whereas ALAs only have 9 DAM, no HIT. Now, DAM is better than HIT, especially since what HIT does, exactly, is a bit of a mystery (Accuracy, how much? Critical hits? How many?). However, ADHs have a total of 16 swing-related points, whereas ALAs have merely 9.

3.) ADHs add more Vitality than ALAs, and though the extra 5K or so is fairly minor at those stats, it is something. Of course, there is a mana substraction, but warriors do not really need mana, anyway, as even its contribution to Siege is minor.

Still, the best option of all, for rogues and warriors, are Ancient Claws. However, they cost something like 10M a pair, whereas ADHs cost only 4M a pair. For a warrior who is not rather rich, it is worth taking the slightly worse hand item and saving the 6M, as the difference in effectiveness is not visible. tongue.gif

Posted by: Vortextk Jun 21 2007, 07:01 PM

QUOTE(Tynan @ Jun 21 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]35464[/snapback]


If you saw how much damage I take on R6 in Bandit3 you'd know why each point counts.



It is a lot. Sometimes I want to stop paralyzing monsters and see how fast they kill him on r6.

Posted by: Tynan Jun 22 2007, 01:14 PM

QUOTE(Vortextk @ Jun 21 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]35489[/snapback]

It is a lot. Sometimes I want to stop paralyzing monsters and see how fast they kill him on r6.


Luckily I now have a Seraph pendant! It is just for cases when I hunt with terrible, evil mages! tongue.gif

Oddly enough, since buying one I have not died, and even more oddly, I have never died in Bandit3, ever, though I still sometimes die in Hunter3. Go figure.

However, I am sure my time will come in Bandit3. I have already been healed out a few times, and one day I will not be so lucky. tongue.gif

Oh, and as for how long it would take me to die on R6, assuming 4 things were hitting me...a maximum of 4 rounds of swings, so maybe...6-8 seconds or less? That is just an estimate, of course. smile.gif

Posted by: solman Jun 24 2007, 11:47 PM

Heres a quick sum down of hit vs damage rogue vs warrior...

warriors have flank/backstab.. in general multiple attacks. They need a higher HIT to manage all these directions for 1 swing. Thus its smarter to increase HIT then dam..

Rogues normally only have 1 attack. Thats in a forward direction. So it makes more sence to increase this damage as much as possible since hit is rarely concidered due to you normally hit every swing the way it is.

Quick run down of why its diffrent for warrior vs rogue. Easiest explination.

Posted by: Rachel Jun 25 2007, 03:00 PM

QUOTE(solman @ Jun 24 2007, 11:47 PM) [snapback]35670[/snapback]
Rogues normally only have 1 attack. Thats in a forward direction.


It's really been that long since you've played Nexus? happy.gif

80% of the time, a rogue hits in 7 or 8 directions. The rest of the time, they hit in 3.

Posted by: solman Jun 25 2007, 11:11 PM

Im talking more at a PK thing and not so much hunting. Granted polearms are diffrent in this aspect but eh..

Posted by: Vortextk Jun 26 2007, 03:00 AM

Who relies on hit/dam at all for pk? I mean, isn't like almost every pre 99 carnage done anyway? There are 2-3 between carnages/bloodlusts I think, but could be wrong. And even then, with such TINY furies, weapon stats and ingresses, I really doubt hit/dam could ever make a large difference.

Posted by: solman Jun 26 2007, 06:56 AM

eh true there. What is there now? only glory and legends? I do remember when I played and SF was around that it ment 2 swinging a player if they were dis sc vs 3 swinging. So DAM ment a huge diffrence vs hit. Yet once you get into the higher levels it really means nothing because its all 1 hit related.

Posted by: Hemp Jun 26 2007, 07:26 PM

Currently, I have a Fine Pearl Bracelet and a Tuna wizard eye for my hand items.

I was thinking about buying a New Mystic Herb & Spirit Mask. To me this would seem decently balanced.

I want your opinions on it.

Posted by: Vortextk Jun 26 2007, 08:51 PM

Herbs are ok for how much they cost, but you should really stay away from new herbs. If anything get a geo orb, or qi shard, or something. It only has 4 hit and 2 dam and at 99, there are cheaper and/or better alternatives.

New masks are better, flip flopped hit/dam, but really, we're talking about a 99 rogue? It doesn't get better than shee-lees or luck amulets if you go expensive, and qi shards/charus are good if you're going cheap. The only big thing they add that most hand items won't, are actual stats. Good to help you reach the next cunning, but a day or two of hunting can bump you up as well.

Posted by: Hemp Jun 26 2007, 10:12 PM

Interesting.

What about a pair of Spirit masks VS. pair of NLA's?

Do you think the HIT 4 DAM 8 would not rock as much as 12 DAM? I'm thinking I may hit more in terms of a large attack.

Posted by: Vortextk Jun 26 2007, 11:11 PM

I don't like more hit because on c1(though I'm sure you're probably 3+?) you only hit 3 targets. In 99 caves and low stat caves, you already kill so fast sets are practically destroyed as soon as the mage can make them IF they can make them at all. You spend a lot of your time going to 2-3 guys, killing your main target, moving a bit, and hitting one of your corners as your "front" now. Especially in mythic caves as you walk around more, you don't sit in 1 spot and get diamonds around you. I would always choose damage as my preference but I do not have hard numbers to back me up.

Though if you can't decide between those two, get 2 shee-lees and just never die =P whats that like...16 dam and 8 hit? heh.

Posted by: Hemp Jun 27 2007, 12:27 AM

I would love a pair of shee-lees for carnages.
Know if they are expensive to bank?

I'll save up for a pair of NSM's for now and test them out. So far adding the tuna wizard eye in place of the metal orb I had has proved more effective in terms of killing, so hit seems to be a good boost. I'll try out NLA's without getting stats to compare and see how effective 4 DAM really is.

These HIT/DAM things has always stumped me anyway.

Posted by: solman Jun 27 2007, 09:15 AM

Heres an old PK/hunters trick for figuring out whats better. get a semi strong buddy of yours and you take some weak/semi buff items in terms of DAM vs HIT. Go into an arena and start swinging at him. You will notice on average how much damage you do and how fast you do it. You want to get more in depth you bring a few people and attack in all directions. Determine how many times they all get hit vs how much damage they do. You don't have to have the most expensive items to see your ratio in what it should be. I believe if im not mistaken for a rogue should be 3.5 DAM vs 2 HIT. Somewhere in that range.

Posted by: Rokugo Jun 27 2007, 10:20 AM

QUOTE(solman @ Jun 24 2007, 11:47 PM) [snapback]35670[/snapback]


warriors have flank/backstab.. in general multiple attacks. They need a higher HIT to manage all these directions for 1 swing. Thus its smarter to increase HIT then dam..



QUOTE(solman @ Jun 25 2007, 11:11 PM) [snapback]35723[/snapback]

Im talking more at a PK thing and not so much hunting. Granted polearms are diffrent in this aspect but eh..


Okay, please explain in what kind of PK situation warriors actually use flank and backstab effectively enough that increasing HIT over DAM is desirable.

Posted by: Euphoria Jun 27 2007, 01:00 PM

the only good thing hit does is let you wake up a slept poet easier in a pk situation other than that I dont know

Posted by: solman Jun 28 2007, 09:58 PM

QUOTE(Rokugo @ Jun 27 2007, 10:20 AM) [snapback]35790[/snapback]

Okay, please explain in what kind of PK situation warriors actually use flank and backstab effectively enough that increasing HIT over DAM is desirable.


how many warriors do you know who aether or even duo with anybody thats not a non 99er without ww?

Posted by: Vortextk Jun 29 2007, 01:17 AM

QUOTE(solman @ Jun 28 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]35862[/snapback]

how many warriors do you know who aether or even duo with anybody thats not a non 99er without ww?


Seriously, I have no clue what that is supposed to mean.

Posted by: Rokugo Jun 29 2007, 08:34 AM

QUOTE(Vortextk @ Jun 29 2007, 01:17 AM) [snapback]35868[/snapback]

Seriously, I have no clue what that is supposed to mean.


Me neither. I remember a time when solman's bizarre assertions were at least understandable.

Posted by: AceoStar Jun 29 2007, 08:40 AM

I think he meant, How many warriors below 99, duo or use attacks on aethers, since they dont have WW.

/shrug

Posted by: Hemp Jun 30 2007, 02:11 AM

I switched to a pair of Corrupted rings. I like the AC boost a lot, and it saves my ass more often.

Just testing out some HIT/DAM combinations with it, it seems effective for me to have a good amount of HIT and a higher amount of DAM on top of that. The larger attack (red hit) happens more often than it did before, and I can clear Purple dragon rooms fairly quick.

Haven't tested this out in a PK situation though.


Posted by: solman Jul 3 2007, 04:05 PM

I swear i have to spell out everything... least aceo got it.

Posted by: Vortextk Jul 3 2007, 10:44 PM

Spelling would be one thing that could help you, yes. And again, pre 99 hardly matters at ALL anymore since hardly anyone ever actually levels through 99 without a PA along the way. And how many pk events are still held between levels 6-98 only? 1? 2? By the way, "not a non 99er" is the cause of my "dunno wth he be talking about" thinking. It still doesn't make sense after knowing what you meant.

Posted by: Rokugo Jul 3 2007, 10:47 PM

Spell it out?! Are you serious? Do me a favor. Get a tape recorder and tape yourself saying this:

QUOTE(solman @ Jun 28 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]35862[/snapback]

how many warriors do you know who aether or even duo with anybody thats not a non 99er without ww?


Now play it back for yourself and listen to what you sound like to everyone else. This isn't a matter of grammatical nitpicking, this is a matter of your refusal to take a small bit of effort to write in a manner which is understandable.

Anyway, the point is that your initial post gave absolutely NO description for what kind of situation you were talking about, but apparently you have now clarified that you were comparing non 99 rogue PK to non 99 warrior hunting, which makes absolutely no sense. Any person coming in here looking for a real explanation of HIT vs DAM would have assumed that you were talking about nearly all contexts, when instead you were talking about such a small context that it only applies to a small handful of people anymore (Pre 99 hunting and PK).

Your "quick easy" explanation is at best highly misleading, and at worst completely wrong.

Posted by: solman Jul 4 2007, 01:10 PM

geez fine i will spell it out. It means that if you cant duo with a party or have some type of spell you can aether with like WW that you do consistant amount of decent damage delt out to counteract a polearm or hitting on all 4 sides.. Then yes warriors have to use more flank and backstab which reflects higher hits will be required.

Does this make a little more sence or not? Let me take it a step further

Non 99ers don't have any spell where they can do any consistant decent damage period. zerk isn't even close to being worth it. So thus my comment about a non 99er. Once you get stronger and if you have rages of some kind then yes polearms and hit is still the way to go. If you have a non rage type character and rely on the aethered attacks, then hit is pointless. Does this make even more sence?

Try to sum something up without going into a lecture on these boards is just idiotic. I thought this was all common sence during any time era of play.

Now you can apply this theory to hunting or PKing. It really doesn't matter. The whole concept behind it is if you can attack in multiple directions or spaces, hit is the way to go. If its an isolated target, dam is the way you go. Bottom line. My whole quick comment was to refer people in the most ineffective way and just realize how many people even do this. Again.. Nobody does.

Posted by: Mirado Jul 8 2007, 07:06 PM

There are no more "Non-Rage" characters anymore, except the Do.

Also, your signature is worded horribly. Go ahead and take out that first "even" in that sentence. It still doesn't make much sense, and still isn't funny, but at least then it's grammatically acceptable.

Posted by: Iter Jul 10 2007, 09:32 PM

*trembles, supported by his cane* When I was a young rogue everyone wanted Hunter\'s gloves because they were a Tit glove that anyone could wear--i.e. rogues could get DAM for the first time. I wanted a bear very much back then... Then pearl bracelets came along and blew those out of the water. And now it sounds like there\'s a lot more shinies that are even better.

Posted by: Excaliber Jul 25 2007, 11:57 PM

HIT and DAM are interesting concepts to note. As a r6, I just got myself a pair of ADH, and they rock compared to sam san charus. The hit and dam are amazing, and relatively cheap compared to claws. I find myself with 19 DAM and 35 HIT in my hunting attire (wind, 2 ADH, amber casque, mpa, 2 black sam boots) At first glance, I thought that was a hell of a lot of hit...and that's after my +hit and dam spells were added too. Basically, in the world of nexus where we rely so much on the power of our furies...do whatever it takes to increase those statistics as much as possible. There's a reason why the MPA add +5 hit and no damage...beacuse it's a tricky item to hit monsters with. With 35 HIT...I keep those 8 creatures in constant attack, and it will simply get better once I get sam san flutes. Rage 6 is now on par with everyone else, maybe a few thousand damage difference.

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