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> Immortal Issues, Split from Special Orange Thanks
Laren
post Nov 1 2006, 02:02 AM
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It's a viewpoint that the powerful always try to propagate, along the lines of "money doesn't buy happiness." This idea that those in power are doing hard work so that we don't have to, that they're taking on this great burden of power, and deserve our thanks for it, no matter what we think of their job. I especially hate it coming from voluntary workers. If you volunteer to do something, you cannot act like a martyr about it. If you can quit any time you want, you don't get to guilt trip people. For instance, a Subpath guide cannot say, "I work my butt off for this path, and I deserve some respect." No. You earn respect. You work your butt off, and if you do a -good job- you get respect. You can't take my respect for granted, and if you feel unappreciated, you don't have to do the job.

Now as for the Archons, most of them probably do have the best interests of the community in mind. However, each person has their own idea of what's best for the community, and the Archons are often chosen from those who are happiest with the game as it is, which is not representative of the majority of the community, and does not make for good progress for the game. Thus, while every Archon works hard, not every Archon works hard on things that deserve thanks.

Mordechai gave us an interesting quote there. "But you can do something I can't. You can influence people. You can lead the community. I can order people to do something but you can get them to want to do it. That is the power that really matters." That may have been true back then, in a way. But it is not nearly as true now. People who are not satisfied with the community as it is cannot change it openly. New ideas are not accepted these days. Controversial words are rejected before they can really be heard. Opposing the current hierarchy, opposing current systems and events, is futile. You do it quietly, or you are shut up forcibly.

So, I would like to controvert this thread, and say that I am very disappointed in many of the past immortals, and in the systems they helped to thrive. For those who have earned my respect and my thanks, you have them. For those who -honestly- worked hard without expecting anything in return, without a personal motive, and with good goals, you have them...

...all of the rest of you, good riddance.


P.S. Also, Mordechai... an Archon can do that as well. An Archon has the power to do both, as they have both their Archon, and their mortal who can be a prominent leader in the community.
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Falaris
post Nov 1 2006, 02:19 AM
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There are very, very few archons who deserve any real appreciation in my opinion. As I said in the other thread, only a few truly ruined it, however, many don't necessarily fill the position 'greatly.'

Mordechai brought up a few names that I spit on, personally. In fact, I still disagree with Mordechai on why he jailed me back in the 30s. Blatantly, I think it was a poor decision and I have never made that a secret. I was behind the Kugnae stables fence with a girl, one of us on top of the other via summoning, naked and doing the pick-up item emote and love wink emote.

I'm still waiting to see people who don't wear any clothes that run around kissing and spamming comma get jailed as well. Because its something I see in Nexus every day.

And while I do agree that too many opinions are based on rumors, there are some of us who know enough facts to dislike, if not hate, certain archons and GMs for real reasons.

Let me say this though: The one archon that I truly appreciated was Ahalya. Few have seriously any idea how much time and effort she put into Nexus. Any hopes that the carnage system would get better went out the window with her being no longer around.


-Falaris


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Lucifer
post Nov 1 2006, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE(Mordechai @ Oct 31 2006, 11:31 PM) [snapback]15846[/snapback]
Archons are not the only heroes. Remember the power all mortals have: The power to change the community. You have that power. How will you use it? Will you be a hero?

That is a problem in today's Nexus: normal players (and even most Elders/Primogens) have little or no say in what happens. However, with the current playerbase, I realize this is for the best in certain situations. I don't want the ROFL'ers of Sire Pit deciding what happens to events and traditions that have existed for years before they began playing, and in reverse I don't want the naive leaders of certain organizations deciding what happens to PKing or the justice system.

QUOTE(Falaris @ Nov 1 2006, 01:19 AM) [snapback]15859[/snapback]

I was behind the Kugnae stables fence with a girl, one of us on top of the other via summoning, naked and doing the pick-up item emote and love wink emote.

RICO SUAVE STRIKES AGAIN!!!


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Simbel
post Nov 1 2006, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE(Falaris @ Nov 1 2006, 03:19 AM) [snapback]15859[/snapback]

Let me say this though: The one archon that I truly appreciated was Ahalya. Few have seriously any idea how much time and effort she put into Nexus. Any hopes that the carnage system would get better went out the window with her being no longer around.
-Falaris


Ahalya, huh. It figures YOU would say that, Falaris.



-Simbel
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Falaris
post Nov 1 2006, 12:21 PM
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Oh please, I know what you are trying to refer to, and its not true. What if I made extremely vague, random accusations that no one gets on a similar topic about you?

Er, wait.


-Falaris

P.S.- Lucifer, hah! And that happened when people actually knew that as my nickname too.


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Forum Troll
post Nov 1 2006, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE(Simbel @ Nov 1 2006, 11:27 AM) [snapback]15885[/snapback]

Ahalya, huh. It figures YOU would say that, Falaris.
-Simbel


Funny funny.
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AceoStar
post Nov 1 2006, 04:32 PM
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^^Just because we don't reply, doesn't mean we don't get the references =p


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Genica
post Nov 1 2006, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE(AceoStar @ Nov 1 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]15935[/snapback]

^^Just because we don't reply, doesn't mean we don't get the references =p



I dont get it sad.gif Someone clue me in please!

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SilentS
post Nov 1 2006, 04:54 PM
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Most know my thoughts and feelings about the recently "deceased" ((we hope)) Archons. Little to no love lost here. Except for a few. And I speak from personal dealings with them. But to those who hindered our game play, tried to bring in retarded rules, and showed personal biased feelings and remarks towards specific groups singling them out, either positively or negatively... All I can say is "Good Riddance!"

It has been asked for well over a year for this to happen. It is about time. Having a fresh start on this should do better for everybody in general.


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Dannicus
post Nov 1 2006, 05:42 PM
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Mordechai, while you make sense, I think it's been said that you're also out dated. That's one of the reasons, I'd assume, behind this change in archons, is so that mortals once again DO have the kind of power they had in the early days. As well, that aside, it seems a lot of the archons did a lot more than just "volunteer work" as some have outright ruined Nexus lives, for better or worse and often through seemingly personal reasons, amoung countless other issues, most prominent being the constant lack of ANY agreement to ANYTHING that would bring good change and content to the game. That's like a volunteer at a nursing home bringing someone the same sandwich for lunch everday despite constant complaining when there are plenty of other viable options. A volunteer like that deserves no thanks for their time because they didn't do anything worth thanking them for.


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SilentNights
post Nov 1 2006, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE(SilentS @ Nov 1 2006, 01:54 PM) [snapback]15944[/snapback]

Most know my thoughts and feelings about the recently "deceased" ((we hope)) Archons. Little to no love lost here. Except for a few. And I speak from personal dealings with them. But to those who hindered our game play, tried to bring in retarded rules, and showed personal biased feelings and remarks towards specific groups singling them out, either positively or negatively... All I can say is "Good Riddance!"

It has been asked for well over a year for this to happen. It is about time. Having a fresh start on this should do better for everybody in general.


Couldnt have said it better myself.

SN
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Rhew
post Nov 2 2006, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE(Laren @ Oct 31 2006, 11:02 PM) [snapback]15858[/snapback]

It's a viewpoint that the powerful always try to propagate, along the lines of "money doesn't buy happiness." This idea that those in power are doing hard work so that we don't have to, that they're taking on this great burden of power, and deserve our thanks for it, no matter what we think of their job. I especially hate it coming from voluntary workers. If you volunteer to do something, you cannot act like a martyr about it. If you can quit any time you want, you don't get to guilt trip people. For instance, a Subpath guide cannot say, "I work my butt off for this path, and I deserve some respect." No. You earn respect. You work your butt off, and if you do a -good job- you get respect. You can't take my respect for granted, and if you feel unappreciated, you don't have to do the job.


I couldn't agree with this more.

There have been a few immortals who I really respected and was grateful for having around. Such as people like Hroth, who actually spent time with the Community. They came down from the heavens long enough to say hello, and maybe even more. I really think that the Angels should be brought back -- or that the current GMs and Archons take a page from their book and spend more time in game.

Mug is making a start. He came to the Geo circle recently to make sure we were pleased with our map upgrades. It's not the first time he's come down to say hello and make sure everything's alright. I hope he continues this.

But, more than those, there have been immortals who not only hinder, but often damage certain parts of the community, and therefore the game overall. Which is why I don't really support the idea of Archons -- without something like, being paid, job security, etc, to curtail them, who's to say what damage they'll do?



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Dannicus
post Nov 2 2006, 04:00 PM
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Rhew: So, Eldridge, who was paid to be the Nexus GM, by your logic must have done a great job because he made money doing it. I wish it was possible with the resources and community and player base Nexus has now for kru to fix everything that game designing failure ever did, but it may be impossible these days, mostly due to how accustomed the community is to what Eldridge did, as well as how many more pure power gamers and PKers came along VS those like the roleplayers or outright good people who do something to help better the community and make it funner. Most of them are gone. Hopefully the new archons have a good enough mix of players to really begin to help make Nexus a better game.


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Rhew
post Nov 2 2006, 04:27 PM
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Yes. That's exactly what I said.

All I was implying is that when there isn't something to be lost other than imaginary power, it's more likely that corruption is going to be an issue. I won't deny that Eldridge was probably one of the worst things to happen to Nexus. However, the last batch of Archons did not exactly make the situation any better. They pushed aside and ignored the issues they didn't care about, causing damage to the entire game.

I guess the combination that needs to be made, and it's unlikely that it ever will, is a set of Archons who care IN GENERAL about the game. If you want to have someone just for RP, just for Carnages, just for this or that, that's fine. But all of them need to be monitored.

Perhaps the Head Archon should be an actual paid job by Kru, and it would be their job only to monitor the Archons below them. This would include LISTENING to Community input, and regularily evaluating if the Archons have been using their powers and pull appropriately and fairly. Also, choosing other Archons based on the entire gamescape. Nexus isn't that big, the Archons shouldn't be chosen just from one small group of individuals. A job like this would be difficult, and would include trusting the Community's input to a large degree, but that in a sense would give us back the power over our little pixel world that we once had.


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Falaris
post Nov 2 2006, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE(Rhew @ Nov 2 2006, 03:27 PM) [snapback]16038[/snapback]

Perhaps the Head Archon should be an actual paid job by Kru, and it would be their job only to monitor the Archons below them. This would include LISTENING to Community input, and regularily evaluating if the Archons have been using their powers and pull appropriately and fairly. Also, choosing other Archons based on the entire gamescape. Nexus isn't that big, the Archons shouldn't be chosen just from one small group of individuals. A job like this would be difficult, and would include trusting the Community's input to a large degree, but that in a sense would give us back the power over our little pixel world that we once had.


This job position already exists. Its called "Game Master."


-Falaris


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Laren
post Nov 3 2006, 04:52 AM
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QUOTE
Perhaps the Head Archon should be an actual paid job by Kru, and it would be their job only to monitor the Archons below them.


We had a paid Archon Primogen with Cerulean, and if anything it was worse than a player. Cerulean didn't know enough about the game or the people playing it to work out problems and deal with game issues. Besides, Kru doesn't have the money for paid Archons, and even if they could spare it, they should spend that money on other things, like GMs who work on content full time. What we need for Archons is good, responsible members of the community. At some point the choosing of Archons changed from those who are apparently the most mature, responsible, and knowledgeable, to those who work the hardest and get highest up in the mortal hierarchy. There are a lot of players who don't stand out in terms of public positions, but definitely would make good Archons. Unfortunately, they are overlooked for those who publicly work their butts off and have lots of titles.
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Airadine
post Nov 3 2006, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE(Laren @ Nov 3 2006, 03:52 AM) [snapback]16156[/snapback]

We had a paid Archon Primogen with Cerulean


There is a big difference between paying a player with their own issues and vendettas and hiring a real person with no ties to this game whatsoever.

I'm sorry but I'm 100% AGAINST hiring anyone who plays Nexus. Every person is human and they have people they like and don't like and when a person gets into power they can then use their power against those they don't like.

This is not some theory, it's been proven time and again. How many times does kru have to be hit in the head before he learns to duck?




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darkmaverick
post Nov 4 2006, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE(Laren @ Nov 3 2006, 01:52 AM) [snapback]16156[/snapback]

We had a paid Archon Primogen with Cerulean, and if anything it was worse than a player. Cerulean didn't know enough about the game or the people playing it to work out problems and deal with game issues. Besides, Kru doesn't have the money for paid Archons, and even if they could spare it, they should spend that money on other things, like GMs who work on content full time. What we need for Archons is good, responsible members of the community.


You cannot find good, responsible members of a playerbase to do GM level work for free.

Many MMORPGs have tried it before. It has been concluded by the majority that asking players to have GM level authority over other player's and their gaming experience always leads to major problems.

An Archon is still a player. They have a player mentality. As a result of this, they will always have a bias toward "having fun". They are still trying to "win" at the game and will use GM level authority to pursue their goal of "winning". Players are so entrapped into the pursuit of winning that they often persuade themselves into believing something they did was not wrong when it clearly was a misuse of their authority.

Like taking other subpaths' proposals and passing them off as your own.
Or following players around to catch them when they say something bad about you, going so far as monitoring their whispers with an admin power you werent suppose to be using.
Or posting that you don't want anyone to make message board posts with their name typed in caps.

They also tend to make rule exceptions for people they like. They also tend to hold grudges against other players based on what players did to them on their mortal characters. None of these activities is appropriate for a GM.


The GM does not run the game to "have fun".
The GM runs the game to provide fun for OTHER PEOPLE in return for a paycheck!
The mentality is very different, at least when the job is held by someone who is professional.

When an Archon messes up so badly they are fired, they just don't play the game anymore. They move on to find another game to play.

When a GM messes up so badly they are fired, they have to look for another well-paying job so they can keep supporting their families and paying their bills.

It has to do with why the approach is different.

When Ultima Online assistant GMs sued Origin in 2000, that is when it was proven that volunteer players are a huge mistake in a commercial MMORPG game.

http://archive.salon.com/tech/log/2000/09/...ima_volunteers/
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004...wsuit_sett.html

Why KRU continues to use volunteers when everyone else knows the system cannot work is beyond all hope of logic. It's pretty much unanimously agreed in game design circles that it is a poor idea.


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Twink
post Nov 4 2006, 04:52 PM
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Having been a volunteer customer service rep in a couple games (not Nexus), I can say that it is truly a double-edged sword. First, the positions are not compensated except usually by having your subscription fees waived. Second, there is a lot more work involved than non-reps believe. Not only do you have to put in so many hours a week (usually 5-10), there are also ministerial tasks involved, like documenting each action taken, which can take another 5-10 hours a week. When you have a full real life (work, family), this can be punishing! You don't have much time left for normal play.

Working with a volunteer staff is difficult because either you have to avoid giving the staff powers to affect the gameplay of others (which makes them virtually useless) or you have to trust them with that great responsibility (which is subject to abuse). Even when volunteers offer proof of bugs, exploits or cheating, it is difficult to get the paid help to listen. However, if it weren't for the volunteers fighting on the players' behalf (remember, they are players too), most things wouldn't be sorted out until way too late to do much good.

Nexus isn't the first game that has suffered from the abuse of its volunteer staff and it won't be the last. What has to be decided is whether the game is better off with the volunteer staff or without them. Right now, it seems that everyone is saying "Thank goodness they are gone." There may soon come a day when we're begging to have them back!

As far as the UO fiasco a few years back, that happened because a few volunteers decided that they should be compensated as employees. They set out to prove that what was required of them fell out of the realm of volunteer work and into the realm of employment and therefore they were entitled to at least minimum wage. As mentioned in my first paragraph, volunteer customer service work often takes more time than you'd think, but nobody is forcing you to do it. If it takes more time than you're willing to invest, quit.

For every bad volunteer rep, there are 20 good ones, but as usual, it's the squeaky wheels that get the oil. An entire volunteer program can be ruined by a few bad apples, and that, my friends, is a shame. The volunteers are usually the ones who have the greatest love for the game.
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darkmaverick
post Nov 4 2006, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE(Twink @ Nov 4 2006, 01:52 PM) [snapback]16317[/snapback]

For every bad volunteer rep, there are 20 good ones, but as usual, it's the squeaky wheels that get the oil. An entire volunteer program can be ruined by a few bad apples, and that, my friends, is a shame. The volunteers are usually the ones who have the greatest love for the game.


Whether they have love for the game or not is rather irrelevant. The simple fact of the matter is they are players.

Players who (at least in Nexus) aren't volunteering out of the sheer goodness of their hearts. They want the prestige and they want the power.

If that was not the case then why the hell must every Archon brag to their buddies about what they know and what they have done despite this being against their code of conduct? The reason we can find out what Archons are up to is because they are not content to have their actions remain unseen. They want people to know they exist. That's the whole point of them becoming an Archon-- prestige! People gotta know how great they are ya know? They will pursuit the goal of inflating their ego over that of protecting the game and entertaining the playerbase. This is because they themselves are still players. I can't blame players for being players, so I will blame KRU for allowing it to happen in the first place.

Give me one good reason why Archons should be in charge of things like the Dreams board or Subpaths, deciding which ideas should be passed on to the GM and which should not.

Simply playing videogames does not qualify you to know what is and is not a good feature idea for a MMORPG. It requires an extraordinary amount of time and research. It requires possessing a bias toward that which is balanced/fair and in the best interest of the player community as a whole rather than a bias toward what you personally believe would be fun for you to do in the game.

And it demands a great commitment which the average person is not willing to commit themselves to.

The average person would rather play a fun game than spend countless hours hunched over a laptop with a calculator running number-crunching playtests and devising algorithms that will need to be re-done and possibly tossed out as the design takes shape.

They would rather hang around invisible looking for someone to jail than sit up all night pouring over any kind of data they can find which might expand their knowledge of game design theory-- all so they can come up with a solution for a design challenge.

And they repeatedly confuse things that sound "cool" with things that can have synergy in the design structure of the game. This is likely because they have no idea what the structure is to begin with and are just spontanously requesting crap to be implimented "because players want it". As if players should actually receive everything they want at the precise moment they want it. Players would request an item that transforms them into oh san if they thought they could get it....and then they would be bored just as quick.

There is admin positions which KRU has historically given to people who simply are not qualified to perform these duties. This is why so many problems occur. You can be the most devoted person in the world but if you cannot do the job then your incompetance will only make things worse.

Having a cluessless GM run a game is really bad, but it is even worse when clueless players are advisors to the clueless GM.

To become an Archon all you need do is kiss a lot of the right butts. Anyone that dares to tell KRU the god honest truth about their game is ignored and shunned as someone trying to cause problems rather than resolve them.


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