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Nexus Forums _ Community Board _ NexusTK Needs a New Server

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 9 2016, 10:30 AM

To preface, in waiting >2 weeks for my account to be approved, I took the opportunity to read every Community post from the last ~5 years to prep for this. Only OhHowSoCute seemed to hit on this topic, though many people have obviously contributed to the discussion about what they like and don't like about the game, and what needs to change. This summer, it has become extremely obvious that Wony is not nearly as good at game design as the pioneers of NexusTK (I've been told Orb and Grin are mostly responsible for the design in the early days, but maybe DM can correct me). Laughably bad changes like overflow, combined with simple aging and neglect have made the game unplayable for many former and new players. A new server is the simplest path to success for Kru.

In short, the code that made this game special is already there. One would simply need to hit the delete key enough times to remove everything from Vortex onward (including Tangun obv). Do it in winter '16 or '17 when the Northern Hemisphere is indoors, and couple it with a marketing push on Steam. The hype from former players alone would be more than enough to pay the bills, assuming the license Kru just renewed covers multiple instances of the game. Even if it doesn't, I'm sure Wony knows exactly what kind of numbers he'd need to make this work. The vast majority of former players are in their late 20s and early 30s, with plenty of disposable income to dump on mounts, crafting bags, etc. I know they'd get ~$50/month out of me for at least the first year, assuming they make all the required changes and don't ruin this opportunity.

Since I missed the boat on the "what makes NexusTK good/bad" thread, I'll just share my thoughts here since these are also reasons why a new server is needed:

1. NexusTK's biggest asset by far was its pacing. As mentioned, it's been completely bastardized to the point where if you die as a fresh 99er before selling exp, you'd simply chuckle at the thought of wasting one hour of gameplay. The dopamine boost from finally hitting 99 and getting to sell was MASSIVE, and instantly got players hooked. Scheduling dopamine release properly is essential to MMOs, and NexusTK's founders got it almost perfect. You could argue there are a couple stretches from 1-99 that went a little too long without rewarding the player somehow, but these would be comically easy to fix (e.g. increase dmg on spear trap and change berserk to lvl 75 to make the climb from Ox1-Snake1 a little more fun). As OhHowSoCute mentioned, it should take weeks to get to 99.

2. This is sort of a 1b, but time-gating and Ee Culture, to me, were huge strengths for pacing. It felt like you really achieved something when hitting those marks. Encouraging your player base to try something new like poetry and writing is part of what made this game special. More importantly, requiring players to be decent to each other for >1 year in order to get Sam was simply genius. DM will tell you that it's what prevented the game from being more popular, which is certainly valid, but I will tell you that it's what prevented the game from being as toxic as every other game out there. Btw, it's pretty obvious from reading through thousands of words from DM on these boards that he's super duper toxic at times, so no wonder he had issues with the justice system. (I would argue though that he's a very intelligent dude, and 80% of his posts are actually really solid - you guys are too hard on him.) I can't remember how long sage used to be, and I know they cut it in half, but having to wait 1 year without getting jailed feels about right for Sam. It's a substantial time investment, but not unbearably long.

3. Paths were reasonably balanced, and hunting was fun despite its relative simplicity and hand-breaking mechanics. Again, NexusTK's founders really crushed it here pre-Sa San. Each of the four paths gave you some incentive to play them. Warriors generally out-PVE'd rogues, but not so much that no one would take a Rogue, and Rogues were superior in PVP. Mages had to do the most work, but they were basically required for hunts and PVP gods (having one class that rewards hand-breaking with PVP prowess is not a bad thing imo). Poets were in the same boat as Mages, though as a fresh 99er with WoL and restore, hunting was actually pretty easy on your hands for long stretches. Getting rid of overflow would work wonders for just about every class. Most of the fun in NexusTK's PVE was derived from swing dmg + setting. It's what made the game unique and gave Mages a chance to vastly increase the group's experience based on how skilled they were. Neglect and dumb game design like overflow has ruined hunting. A new server would instantly fix all of that.

4. Meaningful prizes and fun PVP that made you want to make a new character to max Glory/Legends/Ancients.

I could go on about why I poured thousands of hours into this game pre-2006, but I want to keep this list somewhat focused for now. Slow progression and the need for group hunting are what really made this game great. I keep seeing ideas thrown around to make soloing viable for every path, but none of those people realize how boring that would be. Part of the dopamine boost schedule was simply finding a hunt, and socializing should always be a priority in MMOs. For this same reason, Kru should never consider instancing caves, even if players clamor for it on a new server. Getting to hunt in that one great room every now and then is yet another source of dopamine.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on a new server over the weekend (especially DM/Conro). I've really given this a lot of thought over the past couple months and have tried to be hyper-aware of nostalgia glasses. When I brought this up on in-game Community, Wony actually said that a new server is an interesting idea, so there is a nonzero chance of it happening if we get enough support. Thanks all, and have a nice weekend!

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 9 2016, 10:57 AM

While I think a second server where people can choose to start over from scratch with a new ruleset (like no aethers or something) would be a good idea to breath some life into the game, I don't think that in itself will be enough.

By modern MMO standards levels 1-99 are incredibly boring. NexusTK has to compete against games like WoW, Maplestory, FFXIV, Eve Online, Tree of Savior, Dungeon Fighter Online, etc. etc.

Also, when the time limits on Sage were first implemented and then tied to Sam san, it wasn't as significant a deal as it is now because you normally would not have Sam san stats within a year of playing the game. It mostly impacted players who were jailed. It is different now because Sam san stats can be obtained in a matter of months.

It is important to remember that Sage originally had no time gate; there was a sage you could purchase at level 99, and another Sage you could purchase at il san and ee san which had lower aethers. That was how Sage originally worked until the complex system was created originally to reduce the amount of people who had Sage by removing it if you were jailed for anything. The new system was implemented because people were complaining about Sage spam. The solution that Eldridge came up with was spiteful, as many of his solutions to player complaints often were. What he should have done is added a "looking for group" function and added an auction house system, because these two features would have significantly reduced the need for people to Sage repeatedly to look for hunts or sell their items. Instead his mind seemed to go toward what would cause the most amount of frustration for players.

Anyway, even without the Sage restriction on obtaining Sam san you still have the problem of NexusTK's gameplay simply not being competitive in the market. Even 99+ is not very competitive. The gameplay largely consists of camping a room and continually killing enemies that respawn on a timer. There's no encounter mechanics like you'd see in other MMO produced in the past two decades. There is a severe lack of depth to NexusTK's combat system when it is compared to other MMOs these days and it's a core reason why the game is not very competitive in the market.

I also think your interpretation of what a "toxic player" is may not be in line with what the term generally means; toxic players are those find pleasure in ruining the game experience for other players. It's not toxic to passionately disagree with people.

My opinion is that the way the Archon and justice system operate makes NexusTK one of the most toxic MMOs out there. In the vast majority of MMOs other players have to resort to playing the game in unintended ways and exploiting holes in the game's logic in order to troll. In NexusTK the developer has given the trolls a tool like Jail and built an entire system of penalties that encourages players to permanently create loss of items, gold and clan membership status on another person's character. It is only because these trolls have a stamp of approval from the developer do people not immediately recognize the players for what they are.

PS: Not that it really matters much in addressing today's issues but in an effort to remove some rose colored glasses of nostalgia you may have, it's important to remember exactly how balance issues with Warriors and Rogues came about. Originally aethers as they exist now were not in the initial release. There were very few spells with any aethers, and if they had one it was short. Berserk and DA were balanced in the sense that Berserk did not rely on Mana no consume it all; it was a superior spell in that sense because it could be repeatedly used. Whirlwind was used very rarely due to its risk. It was better to just spam Berserk, which DA could not do. Rage and Cunning did not exist either. The initial game was just a translated version of Baram's initial build.

It's only after aethers were added that Rogues ended up becoming superior in PvE than Warriors. The only exceptions were CRs and Do because of their unique attack multipliers. CalmWind and Mountie had such high stats not because Chonguns and Barbarians were the most optimal hunting paths but because most players didn't spend 8+ hours hunting everyday like they did. Once split stat entrances were removed from caves and allowed Rage5 to be used in Horse2 and Rage6 to be used in Sheep2 the power paradigm of the game shifted dramatically because players gained experience much faster than they did before, and then players began complaining about the reset timers being too long and so they were reduced so people could clear faster with Rage 5/ 6.

Thus Chonguns and Barbarians and non-Baekho Rogues had an extremely difficult time finding a hunt due to the gross power that Baekhos, Chung Ryongs and Do had. While Baekhos were certainly was not as powerful as R6 CRs they were very effective in a duo as players like Conro demonstrated for years, and once a Rogue reached a level where they could one-shot with DA or LS they were far more powerful than a similar statted non-CR Warrior -- including Do. On the whole the addition of polearms benefited Rogues more than it did Warriors, and it's only the ridiculous power of Rage 5 and 6 that made people think otherwise. Polearms could be used by even subpath Rogues more effectively than they could be used by subpath Warriors (with the exception of Do until they chose to self-nerf themselves by removing Blend's multiplier). This remained the case until overflow and subpath rages were added which has created the current dynamic.

Basically, since aethers and subpaths were added to the game there really has never been a moment that Rogues and Warriors were well balanced. My belief has always been that a core problem is that the game does not have a tank class and both Rogues and Warriors are DPS classes, and it's very difficult to perfectly balance DPS classes when their core functions are so different. Giving Rogues equal PvE damage output to Warriors when Rogues are also superior in soloing bosses and PvP to Warriors creates a problem there. Because this has never been addressed the game continues to have issues and I think only a complete re-design of the game mechanics can truly address the gap.

My thoughts on Overflow is that it is actually a neat mechanic which adds some depth to Warrior gameplay beyond just holding down spacebar and it would be better to just implement more unique mechanics like it rather than remove interesting mechanics.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 9 2016, 01:27 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 11:57 AM) *
While I think a second server where people can choose to start over from scratch with a new ruleset (like no aethers or something) would be a good idea to breath some life into the game, I don't think that in itself will be enough.

By modern MMO standards levels 1-99 are incredibly boring. NexusTK has to compete against games like WoW, Maplestory, FFXIV, Eve Online, Tree of Savior, Dungeon Fighter Online, etc. etc.

Right away, it appears we have different goals. I want to experience the same game I played in high school with 500-2k players. You want to create a NexusTK utopia. Let's both agree that Wony doesn't have the resources to make a game on par with modern MMOs, and be realistic here. Any well-implemented, new features are an absolute pipe dream, as evidenced by Wony's grand reveal this summer of a daily coin mechanic. Like, he actually did that. Let that sink in for a bit before you continue reading. I want us to stay focused on something tangible.
QUOTE
Also, when the time limits on Sage were first implemented and then tied to Sam san, it wasn't as significant a deal as it is now because you normally would not have Sam san stats within a year of playing the game. It mostly impacted players who were jailed. It is different now because Sam san stats can be obtained in a matter of months.

It is important to remember that Sage originally had no time gate; there was a sage you could purchase at level 99, and another Sage you could purchase at il san and ee san which had lower aethers. That was how Sage originally worked until the complex system was created originally to reduce the amount of people who had Sage by removing it if you were jailed for anything. The new system was implemented because people were complaining about Sage spam. The solution that Eldridge came up with was spiteful, as many of his solutions to player complaints often were. What he should have done is added a "looking for group" function and added an auction house system, because these two features would have significantly reduced the need for people to Sage repeatedly to look for hunts or sell their items. Instead his mind seemed to go toward what would cause the most amount of frustration for players.

You really are an emotional guy. It's hard to take you seriously when you have such deep-seated hatred for certain people in the Nexus community. It discredits every point you make about them, which is a bummer because you normally have the ability to make some great points. Eldridge's sage solution had two absurdly powerful pros that you're choosing to ignore:

1. It forced people to be nice to each other in order to enjoy the game and progress. More sages = more trading + more hunts + more fun

2. Saging is an important part of the dopamine release schedule. Time-gating communication in a game that requires cooperation for progression is actually a good thing. It rewards people for sticking around and gives them something to look forward to every three months.
QUOTE
Anyway, even without the Sage restriction on obtaining Sam san you still have the problem of NexusTK's gameplay simply not being competitive in the market. Even 99+ is not very competitive. The gameplay largely consists of camping a room and continually killing enemies that respawn on a timer. There's no encounter mechanics like you'd see in other MMO produced in the past two decades. There is a severe lack of depth to NexusTK's combat system when it is compared to other MMOs these days and it's a core reason why the game is not very competitive in the market.

Again, not trying to make NexusTK compete with modern MMOs. I can't be alone in feeling that simple mechanics are a good thing. There's a market segment for everything. Being able to turn my brain off and grind while listening to audiobooks, podcasts, etc. is something I value pretty highly in a game now. I agree with one of your posts that some bosses should be more challenging, but outside of that, making full PA sets as a mage is fun enough for me, and surely many others. It takes months, if not years, for most new players to master and used to have a huge effect on exp production. Keeping warriors alive is also no small task for poets as AC rage penalties skyrocket. There was plenty of challenge in the early '00s, and not all of it came from us being teenagers.
QUOTE
I also think your interpretation of what a "toxic player" is may not be in line with what the term generally means; toxic players are those find pleasure in ruining the game experience for other players. It's not toxic to passionately disagree with people.

This reveals so much about you, but it's nothing I couldn't glean from all your past posts. You really struggle with introspection, and will do anything to paint yourself the hero. Perfect example here of you trying to lawyer the definition of toxic. You sound like Bill Clinton in court right now.
QUOTE
My opinion is that the way the Archon and justice system operate makes NexusTK one of the most toxic MMOs out there. In the vast majority of MMOs other players have to resort to playing the game in unintended ways and exploiting holes in the game's logic in order to troll. In NexusTK the developer has given the trolls a tool like Jail and built an entire system of penalties that encourages players to permanently create loss of items, gold and clan membership status on another person's character. It is only because these trolls have a stamp of approval from the developer do people not immediately recognize the players for what they are.

First things first, you sound so delusional/tinfoily with that last sentence. How is it that I played the game for thousands of hours and didn't have a single negative encounter? Please address this. How could that be possible if the game was so toxic/corrupt? I was never harassed, jailed, banned from carnage/fh/lix/bl, or in any altercation whatsoever. I had no friends as archons or judges, so I def wasn't getting special treatment. Either I'm a Jesus-level saint or you're getting emotional again and overblowing this. You generally reap what you sow in NexusTK. In every other modern game, you will get yelled at by randoms 24/7 even if you're cordial. In NexusTK, they incentivize people not to do that, and it works. You really just don't want to face the facts that you're abrasive and rude in about 20% of your online interactions. Probably a nice bloke irl, but you really seem to struggle with bottling up stress on your bad days. NexusTK's zero-tolerance policy definitely encouraged me to be a nicer person online. It's so easy to get into it with people from behind a monitor when you're having a bad day.

QUOTE
PS: Not that it really matters much in addressing today's issues but in an effort to remove some rose colored glasses of nostalgia you may have, it's important to remember exactly how balance issues with Warriors and Rogues came about. Originally aethers as they exist now were not in the initial release. There were very few spells with any aethers, and if they had one it was short. Berserk and DA were balanced in the sense that Berserk did not rely on Mana no consume it all; it was a superior spell in that sense because it could be repeatedly used. Whirlwind was used very rarely due to its risk. It was better to just spam Berserk, which DA could not do. Rage and Cunning did not exist either. The initial game was just a translated version of Baram's initial build.

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant, as it's not how I remembered the game at all. I didn't think I needed to clarify this, but it should be fairly obvious that NexusTK's glory days were between '03-'06, no?
QUOTE
It's only after aethers were added that Rogues ended up becoming superior in PvE than Warriors. The only exceptions were CRs and Do because of their unique attack multipliers.

To be clear, the "only exceptions" were basically the entire warrior path? Chonnys and Barbs represented 1/15th of the warrior population. When I played, both CRs and Baekhos had no problem finding hunts. This was fine to me since subpaths had other non-PVE advantages and were largely meant for RP anyway.
QUOTE
While Baekhos were certainly was not as powerful as R6 CRs they were very effective in a duo as players like Conro demonstrated for years, and once a Rogue reached a level where they could one-shot with DA or LS they were far more powerful than a similar statted non-CR Warrior -- including Do. This remained the case until overflow and subpath rages were added.


I omitted most of your history lesson, partly because I don't really care about your inevitable Chongun whining. It affected such a tiny portion of the player base, plus, ya know, you could've just chosen CR like everyone else. About rogues being "far more powerful," you're now talking about a phase of the game's history where neglect really started to set in. I hunted with Conro in Vortex pre-Sa a bit. If a new server is done right, we won't hit that territory for quite some time, and Wony might actually be around to plan for it. All it takes is a well-crafted item to make warrior swing dmg relevant. Balancing two fighter paths isn't nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be. The game mechanics are so simplistic. Increase/decrease swing dmg, increase/decrease vita dmg. Lengthen/reduce aethers. When there are only three levers to pull, it's super easy to balance. There just happened to be a 10 year period with no one capable manning the levers.
QUOTE
Basically, since aethers and subpaths were added to the game there really has never been a moment that Rogues and Warriors were well balanced. My belief has always been that a core problem is that the game does not have a tank class and both Rogues and Warriors are DPS classes, and it's very difficult to perfectly balance DPS classes when their core functions are so different. Giving Rogues equal PvE damage output to Warriors when Rogues are also superior in soloing bosses and PvP to Warriors creates a problem there. Because this has never been addressed the game continues to have issues and I think only a complete re-design of the game mechanics can truly address the gap.

For almost the entirety of my time playing NexusTK, warriors and rogues were interchangeable in hunting groups. They don't have to be perfectly balanced to make both paths fun. Again, you have a tendency to blow things out of proportion. A complete re-design of game mechanics is so obviously not needed. As smart as you are, it's baffling that you can't see how over-dramatic that statement is.
QUOTE
My thoughts on Overflow is that it is actually a neat mechanic which adds some depth to Warrior gameplay beyond just holding down spacebar and it would be better to just implement more unique mechanics like it rather than remove interesting mechanics.

It makes no sense from an RP standpoint and simply replaces one "neat mechanic" with another. It was already an art to manage health bars/aethers to efficiently kill farm animals. The tiny dopamine boosts from perfectly timing your WW to barely finish off a mob (or require just 1-2 more swings) were part of what made hunting fun. At Sam, adding an AoE vita to complement Inferno was a cool addition. There's already plenty of AoE with flank/backstab and PAs. Overflow was aptly named - it was completely unnecessary.

Thanks for the reply btw. I was hoping you would chime in, but also knew that you might instantly derail the thread. Let's try to stay focused on what made NexusTK so great in the early '00s - slow progression, having 4 paths that needed each other to progress (ignore PC paths - those can come later), and having easy access to people of similar lvl/stats in those paths to find hunts. A new retro server would accomplish all these things.

To end on a positive note, can you imagine how insanely fun those early carnages would be? It would be utter chaos.

Posted by: WereWulf Sep 9 2016, 03:09 PM

Why should I have to be nice to anyone? If someone wants to be a mean spirited player than more power to them, in fact, as an MMORPG the game should allow and support players who are mean, rowdy, and just plain scum. Nexus should support both avenues of game play experience. It should not be all cupcakes and rainbows that supports only the players that follow the line and give out praises to one another.

Also, why is sage at all a dopamine release? What? When I got sage I didn't get all excited like when I hit Il-san or Ee-san. I simply thought now I can sage random thoughts at people, have funny one liners, and sell/buy items. Like DM mentioned they should have added an auction house and a looking for group function to reduce sage spam.

Finally, yes this game needs a complete overall in hunting mechanics. I currently play 3 games with a lot of continuous hours: Diablo 3, Wow, and Nexustk. Of those 3 games Nexustk is the only game I get annoyed and frustrated while hunting. In Diablo I have hundreds of monsters hurtling towards me! I unleash deadly and powerful attacks constantly to destroy them and as soon as I think its over another wave of them come. In Wow I join a raid group and fight bosses that are very well calculated and require precision from every raid member and focus to defeat them or we completely wipe the party. In Diablo and Wow I do in fact get a dopamine release as I am hunting. In Nexustk I just simply feel like its a chore. A routine that I simply have to do... I feel empty when doing it which slowly becomes annoying and repetitive.

Nexustk can be fun and I hope one day it is again.

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 9 2016, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 01:27 PM) *
Right away, it appears we have different goals. I want to experience the same game I played in high school with 500-2k players. You want to create a NexusTK utopia. Let's both agree that Wony doesn't have the resources to make a game on par with modern MMOs, and be realistic here.


I don't think you can experience the same game you played in high school because the factors of that time period no longer exist in the present day.

The game has the player population it has today because that is what the market allows for a game like NexusTK. Stuff like sam san trials and some players having 4M+ vita or even path balance issues related to overflow and rage don't have any impact whatsoever on brand new players to NexusTK. These elements of the game require months of gameplay to become a factor.

What new players know is the experience when they make a brand new peasant and appear in Tangun to hold down spacebar to kill alligators. They know the slow, tedious grind of holding spacebar to kill enemies, or zapping squirrels while running around in a circle. That's what they know.

The existence of other MMOs offering a superior gameplay experience to this is a core hindrance to the game population rebounding.

NexusTK's archaic design was acceptable in a market where pretty much all other MMOs had archaic designs like this, too. It was competitive in that market from 20 years ago.

You talk about mechanics and their relation to a dopamine release, but you forget that the novelty of a new experience very quickly wears off, encouraging people to seek out new and exciting experiences. This is why NexusTK's archaic design isn't really doing it for modern players. The people who are addicted to NexusTK aren't getting a significant dopamine release every time they hunt so much as they have simply fallen into a pattern of habit that causes the release. It's important to recognize the difference.


Also I do believe Wony has the resources necessary to make a game experience on par with MMOs. He has a server, he has a game engine, he's got graphical assets, he's got dungeon maps.

Where we probably agree is that Wony doesn't know how to use the resources, but that is a different problem than not possessing the resources. He has them. He just doesn't know how best to utilize them.

QUOTE
It's hard to take you seriously when you have such deep-seated hatred for certain people in the Nexus community. It discredits every point you make about them, which is a bummer because you normally have the ability to make some great points.


I make no effort to conceal my bias about people like Eldridge because of the firsthand experiences I've had with these people. I sat behind players who Eldridge spoke to and heard firsthand how he spoke to players and how incredibly important decisions like the formation of the Rangers occurred. I had my own direct interactions with him. I witnessed his jack assery behavior on numerous occasions, such as when he was finally fired and how he logged into the game to tell all the players Nexon was shutting NexusTK down and that Wony was a racist.

Even people who don't particularly like me will acknowledge these things happened. It's not my subjective interpretation of events.

My opinions of people like Eldridge are not based in hysteria; it's based on experiences, and as anecdotal as they may have been other people can confirm this crap went down exactly as I relay the stories thus making my beliefs based not just on personal experience but empirical data of the shared experiences.

So when I tell you I think Eldridge made the change to Sage with the intent to specifically frustrate people I am not being "toxic" -- I'm sharing an opinion that is supported by how the guy behaved as a GM when he interacted with players.

QUOTE
it should be fairly obvious that NexusTK's glory days were between '03-'06, no?


I wouldn't say that, no.

QUOTE
I omitted most of your history lesson, partly because I don't really care about your inevitable Chongun whining.


This line here makes me wonder if you fully read what I wrote in that post or if you skimmed over the paragraph.

Every time I mention Chonguns in a post doesn't mean I am talking about the same thing.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 9 2016, 04:19 PM

QUOTE (WereWulf @ Sep 9 2016, 04:09 PM) *
Why should I have to be nice to anyone? If someone wants to be a mean spirited player than more power to them, in fact, as an MMORPG the game should allow and support players who are mean, rowdy, and just plain scum. Nexus should support both avenues of game play experience. It should not be all cupcakes and rainbows that supports only the players that follow the line and give out praises to one another.

Not sure if serious. Go play CoD if you genuinely feel this way. Or run for prez in the US.
QUOTE
Also, why is sage at all a dopamine release? What? When I got sage I didn't get all excited like when I hit Il-san or Ee-san. I simply thought now I can sage random thoughts at people, have funny one liners, and sell/buy items. Like DM mentioned they should have added an auction house and a looking for group function to reduce sage spam.

Surely those funny one-liners that everyone sees gives you a dopamine boost. Having aethers on world chat limits dopamine release, making the feeling more noticeable/meaningful when aethers are up.
QUOTE
Finally, yes this game needs a complete overall in hunting mechanics. I currently play 3 games with a lot of continuous hours: Diablo 3, Wow, and Nexustk. Of those 3 games Nexustk is the only game I get annoyed and frustrated while hunting. In Diablo I have hundreds of monsters hurtling towards me! I unleash deadly and powerful attacks constantly to destroy them and as soon as I think its over another wave of them come. In Wow I join a raid group and fight bosses that are very well calculated and require precision from every raid member and focus to defeat them or we completely wipe the party. In Diablo and Wow I do in fact get a dopamine release as I am hunting. In Nexustk I just simply feel like its a chore. A routine that I simply have to do... I feel empty when doing it which slowly becomes annoying and repetitive.

Nexustk can be fun and I hope one day it is again.

Another derail trying to compare a game with two devs to one with twenty. Be realistic! A complete overhaul isn't happening, and doesn't need to happen. The game was fun in '04 and will still be fun on a new server.

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 9 2016, 04:37 PM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 04:19 PM) *
Another derail trying to compare a game with two devs to one with twenty. Be realistic! A complete overhaul isn't happening, and doesn't need to happen. The game was fun in '04 and will still be fun on a new server.


You do realize in MMOs it is primarily one or two people who are responsible for the bulk of the PvE design, right?

The majority of people working on an MMO are not designers. The majority are making resources like art, and they aren't necessary once the initial build is done. They tend to be laid off or assigned to other development at the company until the next big expansion comes around.

The FFXIV development team has about twelve people on it right now.

Wony has a game engine and server, a ton of art, sound and music resources, and the bulk of the game content exists. Changing level requirements, adjusting spell and item formulas, and altering NPC AI isn't some impossible chore. The small team of NexusTK emulator servers did it starting out with less.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 9 2016, 05:40 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 04:00 PM) *
I don't think you can experience the same game you played in high school because the factors of that time period no longer exist in the present day.

Let's recap the past 12 years. We've seen exactly one new Diablo that wasn't really an improvement from D2, we've seen WoW surge in popularity then hemorrhage users, and we've seen one-dimensional mobile games turn small European outfits into multi-billion dollar entities. I'd actually argue that the market has moved away from 3D, immersive worlds with complicated encounters, and if anything, is more open to simplistic gameplay and cutesy graphics. This isn't because hardcore gamers don't want those things, but more because gaming in general has been thrust into the mainstream. AR/VR has the opportunity to change tastes once again, but you're underestimating the market for a game like NexusTK. At the end of the day, I'm only hoping for 500-2k users anyway. Btw, saying things like this:
QUOTE
The game has the player population it has today because that is what the market allows for a game like NexusTK.

is so short-sighted and defeatist. You could use that same logic to run a startup into the ground and simply say, "Well, the market wouldn't allow for my idea to work. Oh well." Speaking of which, what ever happened with this?:
QUOTE
Apr 10 2013, 05:17 PM
I know some people are going to think this sounds crazy, but I'm hoping the game limps along for awhile longer. If I make as much money running http://www.martelltv.com/ as I believe I will, I would actually be interested in buying the game from KRU if they did decide to sell their IP off because the finances don't make sense to them anymore. It has a good community, and I think the brand has more potential than what KRU did with it (there really should have been some spinoff comics, or at least a flash web series).

Genuinely interested, as I've seen more and more friends move to SF and start working for small companies. I think it's very cool what you and your brother tried to do (not the idea, but entrepreneurship in general). Feel free to PM me or not, I don't mind the derail at this point.
QUOTE
Stuff like sam san trials and some players having 4M+ vita or even path balance issues related to overflow and rage don't have any impact whatsoever on brand new players to NexusTK. These elements of the game require months of gameplay to become a factor. What new players know is the experience when they make a brand new peasant and appear in Tangun to hold down spacebar to kill alligators. They know the slow, tedious grind of holding spacebar to kill enemies, or zapping squirrels while running around in a circle. That's what they know.

New players either see a lonely grind in ugly, horrible Tangun that inevitably leads them to quit, or 1-99 in 20 minutes from leeching, blowing past most of the game's content. Both of these problems are instantly resolved with a new retro server. As for you painting the gameplay as tedious, have you seen Candy Crush? Clash of Clans? Pokemon Go? How could you possibly ignore the fact that there millions of people out there who LOVE repetitive, simple gameplay. Pokemon Go hit 500 million downloads and it's one of the most boring, simplistic pieces of trash ever created. Pressing spacebar and zapping squirrels entertained plenty of people, even as WoW vanilla asked for the same $10 subscription fee and offered a far better product.
QUOTE
The existence of other MMOs offering a superior gameplay experience to this is a core hindrance to the game population rebounding.

Not the fact that it hasn't been marketed anywhere in the past decade and was run into the ground by mug? Surely there are other factors involved. I'd wager gameplay has very little to do with it actually. Tangun, pacing, and lack of Steam presence are far more important hindrances.
QUOTE
NexusTK's archaic design was acceptable in a market where pretty much all other MMOs had archaic designs like this, too. It was competitive in that market from 20 years ago.

I've already hit on this elsewhere, but should probably add that retro gaming has surged in popularity, just like bell-bottoms did in the 90s.
QUOTE
You talk about mechanics and their relation to a dopamine release, but you forget that the novelty of a new experience very quickly wears off, encouraging people to seek out new and exciting experiences. This is why NexusTK's archaic design isn't really doing it for modern players. The people who are addicted to NexusTK aren't getting a significant dopamine release every time they hunt so much as they have simply fallen into a pattern of habit that causes the release. It's important to recognize the difference.

No, it's not important at all to recognize the difference. Modern gamers and gamers from ten years ago don't have fundamentally different brain chemistry. What are you even trying to say here? Simple, grindy games are wildly popular right now. Reading through the past five years of your posts, I've found you say "It's important to..." a lot and you're usually just being pedantic. It's like you know you're making a weak argument so you feel obligated to try to persuade the reader by telling them what you're saying is important. It's super weird. If it actually was "important to recognize the difference" you wouldn't need to say it.
QUOTE
Also I do believe Wony has the resources necessary to make a game experience on par with MMOs. He has a server, he has a game engine, he's got graphical assets, he's got dungeon maps. Where we probably agree is that Wony doesn't know how to use the resources, but that is a different problem than not possessing the resources. He has them. He just doesn't know how best to utilize them.

More wasted words misinterpreting the definition of "resources." Business acumen and game design prowess are resources too. This should've been obvious.
QUOTE
I make no effort to conceal my bias about people like Eldridge because of the firsthand experiences I've had with these people. I sat behind players who Eldridge spoke to and heard firsthand how he spoke to players and how incredibly important decisions like the formation of the Rangers occurred. I had my own direct interactions with him. I witnessed his jack assery behavior on numerous occasions, such as when he was finally fired and how he logged into the game to tell all the players Nexon was shutting NexusTK down and that Wony was a racist. Even people who don't particularly like me will acknowledge these things happened. It's not my subjective interpretation of events. My opinions of people like Eldridge are not based in hysteria; it's based on experiences, and as anecdotal as they may have been other people can confirm this crap went down exactly as I relay the stories thus making my beliefs based not just on personal experience but empirical data of the shared experiences. So when I tell you I think Eldridge made the change to Sage with the intent to specifically frustrate people I am not being "toxic" -- I'm sharing an opinion that is supported by how the guy behaved as a GM when he interacted with players.

You're missing the point! It's fine to not like someone, but when judging whether or not sage time-gating was a good decision, it's not OK to let your disdain for Eldridge affect your argument. You completely derailed things by going that route, and I'm guessing that's a large part of why people don't seem to like you much on these forums. You do it constantly. It's surprising since most of the time you're ridiculously left-brained and logical, but then you get emotional and weird whenever certain topics/names come up and the quality of your posts tank.
QUOTE
This line here makes me wonder if you fully read what I wrote in that post or if you skimmed over the paragraph. Every time I mention Chonguns in a post doesn't mean I am talking about the same thing.

You were giving me a history lesson about a time period I already experienced. You tried saying that rogues were better than warriors with small caveat that rogues weren't better than CRs (LOL). How can I possibly take anything in that paragraph seriously? =/

I've undoubtedly rubbed you the wrong way in these last two posts, and I apologize. You're actually one of the few people I admire on these forums based on what I've read in the past ~5 years of forum posts. You definitely have a mind for business and game design, which is refreshing when every other post both here and on Dreams seems to be some terrible, whiny suggestion about making the game easier. Again, thank you for responding. I'm really trying to drum up support for a new server, as I'd love to experience the game again how I remember it, rather than some cut-rate version with ugly maps and dumb crafting like Stelio spun up with [Content removed].

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 9 2016, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 04:37 PM) *
You do realize in MMOs it is primarily one or two people who are responsible for the bulk of the PvE design, right?

The majority of people working on an MMO are not designers. The majority are making resources like art, and they aren't necessary once the initial build is done. They tend to be laid off or assigned to other development at the company until the next big expansion comes around.

The FFXIV development team has about twelve people on it right now.

Wony has a game engine and server, a ton of art, sound and music resources, and the bulk of the game content exists. Changing level requirements, adjusting spell and item formulas, and altering NPC AI isn't some impossible chore. The small team of NexusTK emulator servers did it starting out with less.

One developer at Kru does not equal one developer at FFXIV.

DUCY?

I've played on two emulator servers recently and they both had major design flaws that made them super unplayable. Unsurprisingly, one was run by an alcoholic degen, and the other thought he could make a game for the US market without knowing English. Do you honestly think a seasoned game developer would ever work for a tiny company like Kru when they could make 2x more at a real gig or simply develop their own game? NexusTK isn't just going to land some rockstar game designer. Its best code is already written. That's why we should all be focused on getting a new server up that strips all the crap away and lets us enjoy what made it fun in the first place.

Posted by: Nacostradamuss Sep 9 2016, 06:59 PM

Get a Room

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 9 2016, 07:13 PM

QUOTE (Nacostradamuss @ Sep 9 2016, 07:59 PM) *
Get a Room

Srsly? This forum sees 1-4 posts a day. Why are you even here? Constructive criticism or gtho imo.

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 9 2016, 07:21 PM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 05:40 PM) *
Let's recap the past 12 years. We've seen exactly one new Diablo that wasn't really an improvement from D2, we've seen WoW surge in popularity then hemorrhage users, and we've seen one-dimensional mobile games turn small European outfits into multi-billion dollar entities. I'd actually argue that the market has moved away from 3D, immersive worlds with complicated encounters, and if anything, is more open to simplistic gameplay and cutesy graphics.


WoW just regained its Cataclysm subscriber numbers.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/wow-expansion-legion-sells-33-million-copies-in-24/1100-6443409/

Looking at the market in terms of demand for "3D games" or "retro games" misses that the market wants good games.

Blizzard made some mistakes in WoW's last expansion that turned people off. They are correcting the mistakes by improving their game design and thereby increasing the number of customers. KRU could learn something from this.

QUOTE
you're underestimating the market for a game like NexusTK. At the end of the day, I'm only hoping for 500-2k users anyway.


1. I don't think I'm underestimating the market for NexusTK as it is right now. If more people wanted to play the game then more people would play the game.

2. 500-2,000 players is such a low number of players that no developer in their right mind would intentionally try to aim this low with a consumer product. It's a financial consideration; you have more players, you make more money.

MMOs are easy to scale because the majority of the cost is upfront in the construction of the engine and game. The actual day to day operation has minuscule cost in comparison, so once you've reached a certain customer base the games essentially print money by devoting the majority of resources toward customer acquisition. The only feature development necessary is that which keeps the product competitive in the market.

This isn't true for just MMOs, it's true for any SaaS business model which MMOs are the oldest industry example of.

That your ideal version of the game is for it to intentionally be small implies that you're not really looking at the game in terms of its success as a consumer product but rather as a player who has beguiled himself into believing a small population somehow benefits yourself. While small numbers can be beneficial in the case of a service that costs an enterprise price-tag (where customers are paying hundreds of dollars a month), such a service doesn't work as well for a consumer product of $9.99 a month.

I think for players of a videogame where the service is entertainment alone, the conventional standard of success for a SaaS -- to have as many customers as possible and make as much as possible -- is better for the customers in that it ensures the service provider has the resources to continue improving the product while also ensuring its longevity because the day to day expenses are covered.

Intentionally having a small userbase in SaaS means the provider has to resort to finding ways to milk the customer base by creating add-on products. This is where the Kruna Shop becomes relevant in NexusTK as KRU creates a bunch of consumable items designed to get some people to spend hundreds of dollars a month to compensate for their inability to acquire new customers. This is what we're seeing in NexusTK right now. It generally does not work in the long term as customers abandon the service provider for other cheaper options in the market -- cheaper options because due to higher customer bases that competitor can offer a lower price for the same service.

Basically, NexusTK versus World of Warcraft.

You can get away with charging enterprise rates in SaaS only when the service is meant to help the customer in their business. The high cost is viewed as part of doing business, and ultimately helps the customer make money.

It doesn't work as well in the consumer market because people generally do not want to pay hundreds of dollars a month to play a videogame -- especially when they can get a superior entertainment experience with a different game that costs less money to play.

While players in Nexus can certainly choose to not buy Kruna items, they are at a disadvantage to those players who do. I'd not be surprised if people like Valandil do not see those exp items as a tempting offer because needing to stop hunting and take off all your items every 10 minutes has got to be pretty damn annoying, but on the other hand it's also not something any other game developer would ask of its customer base.

tl:dr

An MMO charging less money for service and having a larger customer base is better for MMO players than an MMO that charges more money and has less players.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 9 2016, 08:18 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 08:21 PM) *
Looking at the market in terms of demand for "3D games" or "retro games" misses that the market wants good games.

They don't though. Did you blow past my post? Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, Pokemon Go. All trash-tier games that are wildly popular. You and I want good games. The market just wants their well-paced dopamine. They listen to Miley Cyrus and Chris Brown. The average consumer couldn't care less about complicated/challenging content.
QUOTE
Blizzard made some mistakes in WoW's last expansion that turned people off. They are correcting the mistakes by improving their game design and thereby increasing the number of customers. KRU could learn something from this.

Again, did you not read my post? Kru will never, ever be able to hire a good enough GM to improve their game design. Their only hope is reverting back to when the game wasn't completely broken and letting former players fully tap into dat nostalgia.
QUOTE
1. I don't think I'm underestimating the market for NexusTK as it is right now. If more people wanted to play the game then more people would play the game.

First, where in my OP are you seeing anything about "NexusTK as it is right now?" I've always been asking for a new server that removes everything from Vortex onward (so everything mug did?). Also, how can people make a decision about a game they've never heard of? You're using the same defeatist logic that I already addressed.
QUOTE
2. 500-2,000 players is such a low number of players that no developer in their right mind would intentionally try to aim this low with a consumer product. It's a financial consideration; you have more players, you make more money.

Ldo, man. That doesn't change the fact that Wony would be ecstatic to see that kind of growth. You're spot on with this next block of text, but you're completely failing to realize how hard it is to make a hit game.
QUOTE
MMOs are easy to scale because the majority of the cost is upfront in the construction of the engine and game. The actual day to day operation has minuscule cost in comparison, so once you've reached a certain customer base the games essentially print money by devoting the majority of resources toward customer acquisition. The only feature development necessary is that which keeps the product competitive in the market. This isn't true for just MMOs, it's true for any SaaS business model which MMOs are the oldest industry example of. That your ideal version of the game is for it to intentionally be small implies that you're not really looking at the game in terms of its success as a consumer product but rather as a player who has beguiled himself into believing a small population somehow benefits yourself. While small numbers can be beneficial in the case of a service that costs an enterprise price-tag (where customers are paying hundreds of dollars a month), such a service doesn't work as well for a consumer product of $9.99 a month. I think for players of a videogame where the service is entertainment alone, the conventional standard of success for a SaaS -- to have as many customers as possible and make as much as possible -- is better for the customers in that it ensures the service provider has the resources to continue improving the product while also ensuring its longevity because the day to day expenses are covered. Intentionally having a small userbase in SaaS means the provider has to resort to finding ways to milk the customer base by creating add-on products. This is where the Kruna Shop becomes relevant in NexusTK as KRU creates a bunch of consumable items designed to get some people to spend hundreds of dollars a month to compensate for their inability to acquire new customers. This is what we're seeing in NexusTK right now. It generally does not work in the long term as customers abandon the service provider for other cheaper options in the market -- cheaper options because due to higher customer bases that competitor can offer a lower price for the same service.

Basically, NexusTK versus World of Warcraft.

You can get away with charging enterprise rates in SaaS only when the service is meant to help the customer in their business. The high cost is viewed as part of doing business, and ultimately helps the customer make money. It doesn't work as well in the consumer market because people generally do not want to pay hundreds of dollars a month to play a videogame -- especially when they can get a superior entertainment experience with a different game that costs less money to play. While players in Nexus can certainly choose to not buy Kruna items, they are at a disadvantage to those players who do. I'd not be surprised if people like Valandil do not see those exp items as a tempting offer because needing to stop hunting and take off all your items every 10 minutes has got to be pretty damn annoying, but on the other hand it's also not something any other game developer would ask of its customer base.

tl:dr

An MMO charging less money for service and having a larger customer base is better for MMO players than an MMO that charges more money and has less players.

Wony likely doesn't have the resources to turn NexusTK into a hit game. He does, however, have a decent sized base of former players that might get hyped about a retro server. ~500 players (even just a couple hundred due to everyone being on the same screen so often) all starting out on equal footing would make this a fun MMO again. ~75 active players at 12pm PST on a Saturday just isn't enough in a game like this.

Btw, no response about that post from 2013? I'm really curious.

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 9 2016, 10:36 PM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 08:18 PM) *
They don't though. Did you blow past my post?


Given your concern about thread derailment I elected to not respond to the parts of your post that are widely off the original topic.

QUOTE
Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, Pokemon Go. All trash-tier games that are wildly popular. You and I want good games. The market just wants their well-paced dopamine. They listen to Miley Cyrus and Chris Brown. The average consumer couldn't care less about complicated/challenging content.


You're comparing entirely different kinds of games here.

Candy Crush and co. doesn't ask four hours out of your day. It's generally a time waster, the kind of thing you play on the subway ride or a lunch break.

Pokemon Go might be the only one requiring the same degree of time investment to make any serious advancement, but due to the emphasis on travel it's still the kind of game you can play while traveling to other places like the mall, the park, to work, school, etc.

NexusTK requires a person to sit down at their PC or laptop and devote several uninterrupted hours of time to make any meaningful progress, and its gameplay is heavily centered around teamwork. It's therefore more sensible to compare it to other MMOs than a single player casual play mobile game like Candy Crush, or even real-time strategy mobile games that are centered around PvP like Clash of Clans, or location based augmented reality games like Pokemon Go that pit a single player against opponents.

QUOTE
Kru will never, ever be able to hire a good enough GM to improve their game design


They may not ever do so, but it's not because they are unable to do so.

As it is within their capability to do such a thing they can thus be held accountable for not improving the game in meaningful ways.

QUOTE
Wony likely doesn't have the resources to turn NexusTK into a hit game. He does, however, have a decent sized base of former players that might get hyped about a retro server. ~500 players (even just a couple hundred due to everyone being on the same screen so often) all starting out on equal footing would make this a fun MMO again. ~75 active players at 12pm PST on a Saturday just isn't enough in a game like this.


He has a small customer base, and a list of former players email addresses. He can certainly kick such a thing off, but as I said before I think he would need to address the reasons the current server isn't performing as well as it could in order to make a new server succeed better than the current server does.

I also believe he has the resources necessary to make Nexus into a hit game.

QUOTE
Btw, no response about that post from 2013? I'm really curious.


Not really related but since you're clearly dying to know; I sold the digital video portion of my business over two years ago.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 10 2016, 01:34 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 11:36 PM) *
You're comparing entirely different kinds of games here.

Sure, but the point was that gameplay doesn't have to be spectacularly interesting for a game to attract 2k people. If tens of thousands of people are willing to invest thousands of dollars into a mindless phone-tapper, I guarantee there are 2k people out there who would do the same for NexusTK if they knew it existed. My friend's wife was heavily addicted to Candy Crush and was by no means a casual player using it as a time-waster. She played it for hours when she got home from work and has dropped four figs on it. We still make fun of her for it. All the whales for those mobile games are the same. Any chance they get to play, they're playing.
QUOTE
They may not ever do so, but it's not because they are unable to do so.

I really don't think they're able to. Like I already said, what rockstar developer is going to work for Kru, even if they offered above market value? It would surely be a giant step backward for their career, and they would sooner start from scratch with better IP, no? Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic.
QUOTE
He has a small customer base, and a list of former players email addresses. He can certainly kick such a thing off, but as I said before I think he would need to address the reasons the current server isn't performing as well as it could in order to make a new server succeed better than the current server does.

I agree. Part of the reason I said wait til winter '16 or '17.
QUOTE
I also believe he has the resources necessary to make Nexus into a hit game.

You're definitely a dreamer! Part of that entrepreneurial spirit I suppose.
QUOTE
Not really related but since you're clearly dying to know; I sold the digital video portion of my business over two years ago.

A successful exit by age 30? Quite impressive.

Posted by: Krmit Sep 13 2016, 01:05 PM

So we have here basically, an entire thread of 2 people picking apart each other's novels, sentence by sentence.

What an amazing read. Psych.

Posted by: Brant Sep 13 2016, 09:32 PM

shhhh, it's like watching the gorilla exhibit at the zoo.


Posted by: halombobtk Sep 14 2016, 12:33 AM

Dat grade school complex where the dumb kids pick on the smart kids for getting good grades, carried forth into adulthood. Not sure if adorable or super sad =(

Posted by: Doctor Sep 14 2016, 01:20 AM

is that dm on another account ^

Posted by: Gerdi Sep 14 2016, 03:04 AM

QUOTE (Doctor @ Sep 14 2016, 01:20 AM) *
is that dm on another account ^

LOL

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 14 2016, 09:46 AM

It's so easy to forget how homogeneous the player base is for a game like NexusTK. If everyone who's posted on this thread were in a room together irl, we would all instantly get along. Try to remember that when you feel compelled to make fun of someone on a forum for a tiny, 18 y/o game.

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 14 2016, 11:38 AM

QUOTE (Krmit @ Sep 13 2016, 01:05 PM) *
So we have here basically, an entire thread of 2 people picking apart each other's novels, sentence by sentence.

What an amazing read. Psych.


Novels have a requirement of at least 60,000 words.

Of course, if you only read children's picture books from authors like Dr. Seuss which have around 200-300 words in them, I can see how you might be confused.


Posted by: Gerdi Sep 14 2016, 11:50 AM

There's a reason no other game (that I can think of at least) has time-based trials -- because they understand how stupid and limiting it is for their player base. Currently, with the caves and items at your disposal, it's possible to obtain Sam stats in a month at a reasonable pace. There are some players who are able to grind it out in a couple of weeks. So what's the point of making players wait for a mark that is largely disappointing.

I don't need someone to tell me how I should spend time on a game that I pay a monthly subscription for. There are certainly ways Kru could ENCOURAGE doing that by effectively incentivizing those aspects of the game. However, some people aren't drawn to RP, they'd rather hunt or PK.

Managing how people spend their time on Nexus is just one of the reasons why their subscriptions are low.

I'm fine with a stats cap, in fact -- I think it's necessary. But that's not the same thing.

Additionally, it's limiting for people who have played the game for years, who know everything that the game has to offer, but want to create a new character. Why should I have to wait over a year to get Sam San on an alt character as an experienced player? It makes absolutely no sense.

Hunting has continually produced more and more experience as Nexus has aged, but the trials never evolved with it. It's far past time to get rid of these archaic time-gates

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 14 2016, 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Gerdi @ Sep 14 2016, 12:50 PM) *
There's a reason no other game (that I can think of at least) has time-based trials -- because they understand how stupid and limiting it is for their player base. Currently, with the caves and items at your disposal, it's possible to obtain Sam stats in a month at a reasonable pace. There are some players who are able to grind it out in a couple of weeks. So what's the point of making players wait for a mark that is largely disappointing.

This can be solved in two ways:
1. Get rid of time-based trials (your suggestion)
2. Make Sam San take significantly longer to reach by hunting, where time gate is negligible/nonexistent for most

I feel option two is better because it addresses a tremendously big problem - pacing. NexusTK used to have incredibly good pacing, which is possibly the most important aspect of an MMO. Speeding people through the most compelling part of the game's design (hitting 99) so that it is no longer interesting or significant is easily one of the top three hindrances for retention. I don't think anyone here understands how big a part the dopamine boost at 99 played in all of you getting hooked on NexusTK.
QUOTE
I don't need someone to tell me how I should spend time on a game that I pay a monthly subscription for.

This is so, so flawed. You are literally describing game design. Plus, you're being a little dramatic about Sam San. It's not like you can't continue to progress without it.
QUOTE
I'm fine with a stats cap, in fact -- I think it's necessary. But that's not the same thing.

LOL WAT. You're not okay with them "telling you how to spend your time" by making you wait for a mark, but you're totally fine with them telling you that you can't progress anymore? It's absolutely the same thing. They're both game design decisions preventing you from progressing. They're telling you that you can't spend your time getting stats anymore once you hit a ceiling that eventually gets raised after--wait for it--time has passed! You're perceiving them as different because they have opposite effects on "catch-up," but I'm not entirely sure that was the intent of your argument. It's certainly an issue that deserves being debated (also happens to be one with multiple solutions and polar opposite schools of thought).
QUOTE
It's far past time to get rid of these archaic time-gates

You're not wrong, but as I mentioned above, I don't feel this really addresses the bigger problem facing the game. Getting Sam San used to feel significant. A small minority (of mostly jailed scumbags) complained about the time-gated sage requirement, but the pacing was pretty solid for the vast majority of players. You're also forgetting how easy it is to make alts ahead of time and build up their sage while you progress with your main. Technically, if getting Sage5 took one year, but getting Sam stats took three months, you could get a Sam mark every three months, on average.

Thanks for the honest reply btw Gerdi

Posted by: Doctor Sep 14 2016, 09:47 PM

LOL.

Posted by: Interstate Sep 14 2016, 11:37 PM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 14 2016, 10:46 AM) *
It's so easy to forget how homogeneous the player base is for a game like NexusTK. If everyone who's posted on this thread were in a room together irl, we would all instantly get along. Try to remember that when you feel compelled to make fun of someone on a forum for a tiny, 18 y/o game.


I like this

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 15 2016, 01:57 AM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 14 2016, 09:01 PM) *
This can be solved in two ways:
1. Get rid of time-based trials (your suggestion)
2. Make Sam San take significantly longer to reach by hunting, where time gate is negligible/nonexistent for most

I feel option two is better because it addresses a tremendously big problem - pacing. NexusTK used to have incredibly good pacing, which is possibly the most important aspect of an MMO. Speeding people through the most compelling part of the game's design (hitting 99) so that it is no longer interesting or significant is easily one of the top three hindrances for retention. I don't think anyone here understands how big a part the dopamine boost at 99 played in all of you getting hooked on NexusTK.


I'm not really convinced that spending years of time to obtain Sam San is good pacing. Even with a new server, using that old design will just create the same problems which NexusTK had. There will be a new CalmWind who obtains super high stats (ex. 1M+ Vita) while the vast majority of the server is still trying to hit Il san.

I still remember the train of 4-5 Poets which CalmWind would need to have to heal him in Rat3 back in the early days because even if the Poets had high stats, the low healing power of Water of Life in relation to his high Vita made him a [Content removed] to heal.

As I said in earlier posts I think you are looking at the past with rose colored glasses. There were serious design problems with NexusTK in the old days. There still are, but they are different than what used to exist.

You should also remember that there used to be other localized versions of Baram. There was a French one and a Indonesian one. There was a Japanese one. There was even a Canadian one for a very short time. They all shut down because of lack of interest; the default Baram gameplay just isn't competitive in the market. It wasn't 10 years ago, and it sure as hell isn't now.

QUOTE
This is so, so flawed. You are literally describing game design. Plus, you're being a little dramatic about Sam San. It's not like you can't continue to progress without it.


It comes across to the player as punishing them for excelling at the game when they meet the requirements for starting a new quest but cannot access it due to a time gate requiring them to be subscribed to the game for a specific amount of time. This is doubly so when completing the quest gives them enhanced power and consequently enhances the amount of experience they can earn, thereby increasing the rate of stat gain.

Quest completion requirements are nearly always skill based. Time gating for longer than a 24 hour period is extremely uncommon. This Sage barrier on Sam San is like if World of Warcraft allowed you to get to level 59 but said you need to have an active subscription for 6 months until you can hit level 60.

QUOTE
You're not wrong, but as I mentioned above, I don't feel this really addresses the bigger problem facing the game. Getting Sam San used to feel significant. A small minority (of mostly jailed scumbags) complained about the time-gated sage requirement, but the pacing was pretty solid for the vast majority of players.


First of all, the vast majority of players are jailed for either using mild profanity, or insulting a player without actually using any profanity but the Judge deems it "close enough". That hardly qualifies them as being "scumbags".

Second of all, the pacing was solid for the majority of players because they only played the game casually. Without gameplay that appeals to the hardcore gamers who invest substantial daily hours into the game you don't have much of a community. You end up with what NexusTK is right now; a game where people primarily leave their characters logged in AFK because they have some ridiculous spell that has anywhere from 1 hour to 24 hour aethers that won't countdown unless they are logged in.

QUOTE
You're also forgetting how easy it is to make alts ahead of time and build up their sage while you progress with your main. Technically, if getting Sage5 took one year, but getting Sam stats took three months, you could get a Sam mark every three months, on average.


It's not that "easy" considering you have to invest a lot of money while also managing to not get jailed for some petty reason.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 15 2016, 08:52 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 15 2016, 01:57 AM) *
I'm not really convinced that spending years of time to obtain Sam San

At no point in NexusTK's history did it ever take a non-casual years to obtain Sam San. Hasn't the time-gate always been 360 days (closer to 400 if you consider the grind from 1-90)?
QUOTE
There will be a new CalmWind who obtains super high stats (ex. 1M+ Vita) while the vast majority of the server is still trying to hit Il san.

You just described one of NexusTK's few differentiating strengths.
QUOTE
I still remember the train of 4-5 Poets which CalmWind would need to have to heal him in Rat3 back in the early days because even if the Poets had high stats, the low healing power of Water of Life in relation to his high Vita made him a [Content removed] to heal.

Rat3 is close to Il Stats. Why are we talking about WoL? Why would a new server just casually omit Il San?
QUOTE
As I said in earlier posts I think you are looking at the past with rose colored glasses. There were serious design problems with NexusTK in the old days. There still are, but they are different than what used to exist.

And I feel like you keep bringing up flaws from a past that aren't even relevant to the discussion. You've mentioned the no-aether days and the pre-Il days now, but I've said multiple times that I'm referring to creating a new server that mimics NexusTK at its peak-user years in '03-'06. I'm thinking the right way to do this would be to start a fresh server with only Sam available since Sa trials were botched by bad designers.
QUOTE
You should also remember that there used to be other localized versions of Baram. There was a French one and a Indonesian one. There was a Japanese one. There was even a Canadian one for a very short time. They all shut down because of lack of interest; the default Baram gameplay just isn't competitive in the market. It wasn't 10 years ago, and it sure as hell isn't now.

This so falsely assumes that there is only one reason a business can fail. C'mon, man. You're an entrepreneur!
QUOTE
It comes across to the player as punishing them for excelling at the game when they meet the requirements for starting a new quest but cannot access it due to a time gate requiring them to be subscribed to the game for a specific amount of time. This is doubly so when completing the quest gives them enhanced power and consequently enhances the amount of experience they can earn, thereby increasing the rate of stat gain.

Quest completion requirements are nearly always skill based. Time gating for longer than a 24 hour period is extremely uncommon. This Sage barrier on Sam San is like if World of Warcraft allowed you to get to level 59 but said you need to have an active subscription for 6 months until you can hit level 60.

How you guys fail to realize that WoW literally does this with level caps is beyond me. Level caps essentially = time gating. Regardless, this is all misdirection, in that you're trying to dance around the one, glaring truth about Sam San when it was released: there was negligible/nonexistent time gating for the vast majority of players. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it took about one year to get Sage5, and about one year for most to hunt to Sam and finish Ee Culture. If someone hunted way faster than that, they could always play another hero or simply hunt as an Ee San until their few months of waiting were up (conservatively, I'd say you miss out on 25% exp, boo hoo). Almost 100% of the people who complained had been jailed. As far as the subscription $ ask, $120/year for the >1k hours many would invest in getting Sam? Literally pennies (<12 cents an hour). Consider inflation and higher disposable income due to an older player base, and this minor subscription4progress model is nothing compared to the pay2win crap that exists in the current gaming marketplace.

Again, please stop talking about time gating since that's not what Sam was about on its release. It was always much, much more about jailing, which you address here:
QUOTE
First of all, the vast majority of players are jailed for either using mild profanity, or insulting a player without actually using any profanity but the Judge deems it "close enough". That hardly qualifies them as being "scumbags".

Note the bold part. I can't believe I have to say this, but you've identified yet another differentiating perk of NexusTK while trying to pass it off as a negative. Players having their progress delayed due to being scummy to other players? SIGN ME UP. A clean MMO in a vast ocean of filth? SIGN. ME. UP. If you don't like it, you can literally play any other game. I can't stress this enough, hence the bold/italics/underline. This is seriously one of NexusTK's most incredible strengths, and you're casually passing it off as a weakness. I'm as vulgar and godless as they come, but now that I'm in a traditional office setting, I realize how big the market is for this sort of thing. My coworker literally said that he saw Captain America CW last week and liked it because of how "clean" it was. *shudder*
QUOTE
Second of all, the pacing was solid for the majority of players because they only played the game casually. Without gameplay that appeals to the hardcore gamers who invest substantial daily hours into the game you don't have much of a community.

Well, first off, I'm guessing the majority of the NexusTK player base now consists of 9-5ers, but let's put that aside for a second. The attraction of being CalmWind with a train of poets is all you need to draw hardcore gamers. Hardcore gamers will always find ways to enjoy the game, even with the Sam time gating. Btw, your argument is hanging on by a thread since it's literally the only time gated trial, and a negligible one at that. With the old pacing, let's pretend a truly hardcore gamer can get a fresh character to Sam stats + Ee Culture in 3 months (not sure if possible, but let's pretend). Four account slots = 3 other characters to work on, which = 4 Sam sans in one year = 1 Sam every 3 months = no time gate. You're also forgetting that someone that hardcore is going to be sinking a ton of time into Carny/BL/Lix/FH + Comm. Events + boss hunting + ambers/crafting.
QUOTE
It's not that "easy" considering you have to invest a lot of money while also managing to not get jailed for some petty reason.

I'm trying to get some kind of gauge on how delusional you are about NexusTK's justice system. What % of total jailings do you feel weren't justified based on the in-game law's definition of cursing/harassment? I'll share my % after I hear yours.

Forcing people to be decent to other players for a year in order to get Sam just feels so right to me. It's not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things, but enough to change the culture of a game. I've been playing Dota2 for 4 years for example, and I've been very not-decent to people for the vast majority of that time. On NexusTK? I was a saint, and it made me a happier person as a result. Positivity spreads, just like toxicity. Having said that, it's easy to argue that a zero-tolerance policy isn't optimal. I would lobby for a looser definition of harassment (everyone knows a toxic player when they see one), but extend it to a 3 strikes policy. It would still have culture-changing impact, but would give more leeway for generally non-toxic players to wake up on the wrong side of the bed occasionally. You could even loosen it to 3 strikes within x number of months.

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 15 2016, 11:53 AM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 15 2016, 08:52 AM) *
At no point in NexusTK's history did it ever take a non-casual years to obtain Sam San. Hasn't the time-gate always been 360 days (closer to 400 if you consider the grind from 1-90)?


It's years if you get reset because you got jailed.

QUOTE
You just described one of NexusTK's few differentiating strengths.

Rat3 is close to Il Stats. Why are we talking about WoL? Why would a new server just casually omit Il San?


Rat3 was the highest level cave that CalmWind could reliably find poets for. Again, his stats were way higher than the majority of the server.

If you make a new server and roll back any of the new game content, chances are high history will just repeat itself. All the old problems will be back. I'm pointing out what a few of them are.

QUOTE
And I feel like you keep bringing up flaws from a past that aren't even relevant to the discussion. You've mentioned the no-aether days and the pre-Il days now, but I've said multiple times that I'm referring to creating a new server that mimics NexusTK at its peak-user years in '03-'06. I'm thinking the right way to do this would be to start a fresh server with only Sam available since Sa trials were botched by bad designers.


It sounds like you just want to roll the game back to the days when you first played the game. I really don't think that was the best possible version of NexusTK.

QUOTE
This so falsely assumes that there is only one reason a business can fail. C'mon, man. You're an entrepreneur!


There is only one localization of Baram still running and it's NexusTK, whose peak user base is a little over 300 people.

Most companies would shut an MMORPG of this userbase down because they realize if they devoted the same resources to a different game with more market appeal they would make more money.

QUOTE
How you guys fail to realize that WoW literally does this with level caps is beyond me. Level caps essentially = time gating.


It's not time gating..... You can't time-gate content in expansions which does not yet exist.

In NexusTK other people have access to the Sam san+ features and you don't until you meet the requirements. So it's different.

QUOTE
Regardless, this is all misdirection, in that you're trying to dance around the one, glaring truth about Sam San when it was released: there was negligible/nonexistent time gating for the vast majority of players. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it took about one year to get Sage5, and about one year for most to hunt to Sam and finish Ee Culture. If someone hunted way faster than that, they could always play another hero or simply hunt as an Ee San until their few months of waiting were up (conservatively, I'd say you miss out on 25% exp, boo hoo).


Actually because many people didn't have a need to Sage all the time they didn't all have the max grade of Sage.

QUOTE
Almost 100% of the people who complained had been jailed. As far as the subscription $ ask, $120/year for the >1k hours many would invest in getting Sam? Literally pennies (<12 cents an hour). Consider inflation and higher disposable income due to an older player base, and this minor subscription4progress model is nothing compared to the pay2win crap that exists in the current gaming marketplace.


So people who get into a spat with another player should be rendered less important even if they contribute the same (or greater) financial value to the operation of the game? Is that your argument?

You are looking at your proposal from the perspective of "This is the version of the game I personally want to play" rather than "This is the version of the game which is best for all players to enjoy".

QUOTE
Again, please stop talking about time gating since that's not what Sam was about on its release. It was always much, much more about jailing, which you address here:


It was always a time gate, and it was a time gate designed to punish a certain group of players.

QUOTE
Note the bold part. I can't believe I have to say this, but you've identified yet another differentiating perk of NexusTK while trying to pass it off as a negative. Players having their progress delayed due to being scummy to other players? SIGN ME UP. A clean MMO in a vast ocean of filth? SIGN. ME. UP. If you don't like it, you can literally play any other game.


Playing a different game is precisely what the vast majority of the market is doing because you represent a very small minority who thinks other players in a videogame should be held back just because they called someone a [Content removed] or a tool, or made a joke about clubbing baby seals. Or got accused of being a bot so that an Archon could justify jailing someone they had a heated argument with on their mortal.

QUOTE
I can't stress this enough, hence the bold/italics/underline. This is seriously one of NexusTK's most incredible strengths, and you're casually passing it off as a weakness. I'm as vulgar and godless as they come, but now that I'm in a traditional office setting, I realize how big the market is for this sort of thing. My coworker literally said that he saw Captain America CW last week and liked it because of how "clean" it was. *shudder*


You are taking one person's opinion about why Captain America: Civil War was a success as that it was "clean"? I very much doubt the word "clean" would rank at the top of a word cloud that analyzes all the top reviews for that movie.

QUOTE
Well, first off, I'm guessing the majority of the NexusTK player base now consists of 9-5ers, but let's put that aside for a second. The attraction of being CalmWind with a train of poets is all you need to draw hardcore gamers.


Having isn't always so pleasing a thing as wanting. CW was very frustrated that he couldn't just have one Poet heal him and then maximize the experience gain.


QUOTE
Hardcore gamers will always find ways to enjoy the game, even with the Sam time gating.


The majority of hardcore NexusTK players left the dang game, including myself, because our frustration with all these poor design choices led us to quit. That is literally what happened. It's not subjective. It's the absolute truth.

QUOTE
Btw, your argument is hanging on by a thread since it's literally the only time gated trial, and a negligible one at that. With the old pacing, let's pretend a truly hardcore gamer can get a fresh character to Sam stats + Ee Culture in 3 months (not sure if possible, but let's pretend). Four account slots = 3 other characters to work on, which = 4 Sam sans in one year = 1 Sam every 3 months = no time gate. You're also forgetting that someone that hardcore is going to be sinking a ton of time into Carny/BL/Lix/FH + Comm. Events + boss hunting + ambers/crafting.


You are focused on whether someone CAN do it, and not on whether they SHOULD HAVE to do it.

It's possible for someone to jump through hoops. That isn't the question; the question is if the hoops are fairly designed. The majority of people do not think that they are and that is the point here.

QUOTE
I'm trying to get some kind of gauge on how delusional you are about NexusTK's justice system. What % of total jailings do you feel weren't justified based on the in-game law's definition of cursing/harassment? I'll share my % after I hear yours.


As most of the jailings are due to profanity then I say the majority of them are not justified. I don't believe having a heated argument with another player should justify getting kicked out of your guild, losing spells, losing access to cities and having progress on Sam san reset.

That none of the more popular MMORPGs have a feature like the justice system demonstrates it is not necessary for a good game.

QUOTE
Forcing people to be decent to other players for a year in order to get Sam just feels so right to me. It's not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things, but enough to change the culture of a game.


Do you really believe NexusTK is less toxic than other games? Perhaps when half the people online are AFK you could think this, but what has really happened is people have become so concerned with getting reported by a random passerby overhearing a public conversation that they have decided to primarily use group whispers or out of game chat like Ventrillo and Skype. That's not really encouraging and makes it more difficult for a new player to get involved in the community of older players.

QUOTE
I've been playing Dota2 for 4 years for example, and I've been very not-decent to people for the vast majority of that time.


You know, it really sounds like you are overly concerned with an environment where you hear no disparaging comments. The reality of competitive play is that other people have opinions as well, and some of these opinions you may disagree with. But you need to put on your big boy pants and thicken your skin because real life doesn't have some [Content removed] named Terragg who can summon the people you don't like to court and get them kicked out of their job and locked in jail because that person said they don't like you.

You might indeed be paying a fee to access the game, but so are they. Even the jerkiest customer still deserves to access the service they are paying for.

Posted by: Doctor Sep 15 2016, 09:47 PM



literally right now

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 15 2016, 10:11 PM

What does that make you, Doc? One of the inanimate objects in the background contributing zero to the effort of making NexusTK playable again? Why are you here? What's the point of being in the peanut gallery on a dying forum about a dying game? Participate in the discussion about a new server or find a different thread imo. I'd also lay off the haterade. Negativity is unappealing, and you're generally a pretty funny guy from reading the past five years of posts.

Posted by: Doctor Sep 15 2016, 10:16 PM

Cause we've had this discussion about 20 times already so I'd rather post pictures instead of say the same thing again.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 15 2016, 11:39 PM

Holy crap you gave me a lot to respond to. Thanks again for the post. Probably going to have to summarize a lot since I don't know if this amount of nitpicking each other's posts is sustainable laugh.gif

I'm not going to expand on my semantic argument re: time gating vs level caps, since we both know the similarities and differences between the two. It mostly comes down to personal preference. I find level caps to be boring and unnecessary. Having a CalmWind in a game is super cool to me, even though I know I'll never have the time to devote to actually being CalmWind. Installing one, single, solitary, "soft" (you can still progress without the mark) time gate in an effort to reduce toxicity seems so reasonable to me, but I also recognize that it might be more attractive to Wony to offer something new. I brought up the story about my coworker to explain how eye-opening it's been to be surrounded by Jesus freaks and 40-year-olds with three kids after spending most of the past decade surrounded by alcoholic, drug-abusing (though lovable, intelligent, hard-working) atheists. There really is a market for a clean MMO. You just refuse to acknowledge it because you're so vehemently against the justice system, and probably don't spend much time around super conservative people. Most of your bias against the justice system (and the Sam trial by extension) stems from the flawed notion that the system was rigged. We all started on a blank slate when discovering NexusTK. Only your actions toward other players/GMs could lead to you getting jailed. I was nice to people. You weren't. You got jailed. I didn't. It really is that simple. C'est la vie, etc.

At the end of the day, I personally don't really care much if there's a justice system or not. There are obviously arguments to be made for both sides, as you've brought up some great points. I thought it was a cool feature since I loved seeing people get jailed, knowing that I was far too intelligent, socially competent, and emotionally stable to let it happen to me. It was part of what made me "good" at NexusTK, so I viewed it as a competitive advantage. Consider me anti-justice system if it helps get a new server up and running. My only fear is that it will just end up being like (e)TK, which was incredibly toxic and juvenile. Its culture was seriously terrible, but maybe the harsh reality is that most people who play MMOs are just kinda [Content removed]ty in general. They skew unhealthy/unemployed/poor/depressed for sure, which is why any effort to encourage their in-game interactions to be positive always made sense to me.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 15 2016, 12:53 PM) *
If you make a new server and roll back any of the new game content, chances are high history will just repeat itself. All the old problems will be back. I'm pointing out what a few of them are.

History won't repeat itself if mug doesn't come back. I still don't think you've pointed out a problem that existed in the post-Il, pre-Vortex era, but I'm inviting you to correct me.
QUOTE
It sounds like you just want to roll the game back to the days when you first played the game. I really don't think that was the best possible version of NexusTK.

It was certainly the most successful time in the game's history, no? I don't think there's any denying that. In your opinion, when was the game at its best? Remember to be realistic and choose a moment in time that already occurred. I'm guessing the code largely needs to be there already if a new server is ever actually going to happen.
QUOTE
You are looking at your proposal from the perspective of "This is the version of the game I personally want to play" rather than "This is the version of the game which is best for all players to enjoy".

Partially, but I've also been thinking about its competitive advantages and position in the gaming market, as evidenced by all these marathon posts filled with business jargon. NexusTK has carved out a clear niche in the hearts/minds of a core group of players who just can't seem to get away after all these years, even while being unregged for the better part of a decade. It's only logical to try to tap into what made the game attractive back when people like you used to play. It's a completely different game now, which is part of why no one wants to play it. Mug and crew ran it into the ground, plus a neglected MMO with unlimited stat design is just never going to age well anyway after 15+ years. Endless stats would be fine for the new server. It's not like anyone expects to play on it for another two decades. 4-5 good years would be really fun again, with the prospect of more if Wony actually maintained it and addressed future pacing issues and content releases.
QUOTE
You know, it really sounds like you are overly concerned with an environment where you hear no disparaging comments. The reality of competitive play is that other people have opinions as well, and some of these opinions you may disagree with. But you need to put on your big boy pants and thicken your skin because real life doesn't have some [Content removed] named Terragg who can summon the people you don't like to court and get them kicked out of their job and locked in jail because that person said they don't like you.

Bro, you got jailed in NexusTK. Pretty sure that means you're the one who needs thicker skin. You obv let someone get to you so much that you snapped, despite knowing how bad the consequences would be.
QUOTE
Even the jerkiest customer still deserves to access the service they are paying for.

You steadily gain respect from me with some of your posts, then you just piss it all away with statements like these. Never seen someone get kicked out of an NFL game? Never seen someone get banned from an MMO? With your logic, I could pay to get into Disneyland, stand next to Mickey, pull my pants down, and take a fat [Content removed] without getting removed from the park. You clearly haven't played Dota2 in any capacity. Fairly certain it's impossible to put 1k hours into that game without at least getting temp banned.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 15 2016, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (Doctor @ Sep 15 2016, 11:16 PM) *
Cause we've had this discussion about 20 times already so I'd rather post pictures instead of say the same thing again.

Are you sure? I read the past five years of posts and only OhHowSoCute mentioned it, once. I haven't found a single thread title containing anything about a new server, but if you'd like to point me to one, I'd appreciate it.

Posted by: CrewelLye Sep 16 2016, 03:31 PM

I like your suggestions, but you are missing an important element that made this game great in the past, and that was it's roleplay. I never played this game for hunting or pk, just for for the sandbox elements it offered in roleplay. I have searched other games and never found one that was even close to offering at least one iota of the rp offered here. Don't discount it, there are still a large number of players that enjoyed this game for that aspect alone like I do.

However, I have noticed over the last 9 years of playing that this element has been slowly dying out, due allot in part to Archons and Event Characters rarely engaging or offering any kind of events, even though they have promised to do so and then either renege on the offers or just disappear when they are suppose to show up. As is, they only cater to the silly ministries and power struggles that ensue, they hardly listen to any of the subpath's ideas.

My hope is that if they do a new server that they keep this aspect, but at least use more engaging/active players for archons or event characters, or allow other players to join in with more degree. Term limits would be a nice addition so we don't have all the burn outs in the highest positions of power for decades.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 16 2016, 06:23 PM

QUOTE (CrewelLye @ Sep 16 2016, 04:31 PM) *
I like your suggestions, but you are missing an important element that made this game great in the past, and that was it's roleplay.

Totally agree. Great points CrewelLye. The NexusTK I remember encouraged even left-brained robots like me to tap into their creative side once in a while. It's another huge differentiating asset the game has.

Posted by: Conro Sep 17 2016, 12:52 PM

I don't understand writing novels to explain why this game failed.

The lack of understanding of how the game is played by players was the ultimate number one reason.
Time gating for nearly EVERYTHING.
Lack of adaption for how the game changed.

And HalombobTK, if you think the Justice system and "forcing players to be nice to each other" did any favors for the game, you're probably pre-dementia.

This game had one of the most toxic player bases I've ever experienced, and I played League of Legends for three years. The fact that you could convince a judge to jail another player and completely ruin their chance of playing most of the game turned the justice system into a petty way for people to try to get back at each other, while actual problems (harassment, real life threats, sexual harassment) were at the judge's interpretation.
Have a screenshot of a former friend saying a curse word in a private chat? Jailed!
Have a mound of evidence that someone is targeting you with harassment from multiple characters? No warning, brand, or intervention from KRU.

Coming out as gay in this game was a [Content removed]ing experience. Having a group of players that revolved around SuWaN's crew actively harass me for being gay and try to find every way possible to hint at it without out right saying it, while getting away with it time and time again, was pretty ridiculous. I've seen people in other games get permanently banned for a quarter of what people tried to do to me on a daily basis. I didn't care if they hated me over my ideas for the game, or because of PvP crap, but the anti-gay slurs were over the top and sanctioned by Tip and every other judge who'd see outright anti-gay slurs and just let it pass.

This game failed because it didn't look at other examples and try to emulate their success while maintaining the core of what makes the game unique (unlimited stats, player driven stories, player run politics).

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 17 2016, 03:40 PM

Don't have time to respond to everything you wrote, but I think a lot of it is addressable by reading my prior posts.

One thing though;

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 15 2016, 11:39 PM) *
You steadily gain respect from me with some of your posts, then you just piss it all away with statements like these. Never seen someone get kicked out of an NFL game? Never seen someone get banned from an MMO? With your logic, I could pay to get into Disneyland, stand next to Mickey, pull my pants down, and take a fat [Content removed] without getting removed from the park. You clearly haven't played Dota2 in any capacity. Fairly certain it's impossible to put 1k hours into that game without at least getting temp banned.


Cursing at someone is not of the same magnitude as taking a dump in public.

While both actions may displease people, only the latter action poses any actual risk of harm to people.

I don't know why you think an issue of health and sanitation is of the same caliber of offense as speaking a single word, even heatedly. It's not a particularly rational assessment.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 17 2016, 07:39 PM

QUOTE (Conro @ Sep 17 2016, 01:52 PM) *
Time gating for nearly EVERYTHING.

Name one time gate that wasn't sage related please. Or two, or five if you can. Since you used all-caps "EVERYTHING" surely there are dozens of time gates you can name.
QUOTE
And HalombobTK, if you think the Justice system and "forcing players to be nice to each other" did any favors for the game, you're probably pre-dementia.

Instant evidence for why you're biased against the justice system. Of course toxic players don't like rules against being toxic. You're being toxic as a 30+ y/o on a forum for a tiny, 18-year-old MMO. Same old Conro after all these years?
QUOTE
This game had one of the most toxic player bases I've ever experienced, and I played League of Legends for three years. The fact that you could convince a judge to jail another player and completely ruin their chance of playing most of the game turned the justice system into a petty way for people to try to get back at each other, while actual problems (harassment, real life threats, sexual harassment) were at the judge's interpretation.

I never experienced this despite pouring thousands of hours into the game. NexusTK wasn't toxic for me. All the petty bs was completely avoidable if you were a decent human being and didn't get under people's skin. In LoL or Dota2, you can be the nicest player in the world and still get berated by teammates due to the nature of random matchmaking and the low stakes of the reporting system. It's impossible to argue that the justice system didn't have an impact because people had to watch what they said publicly. It made the experience way better for non-toxic players like me, since I never had to see everyone's petty bs unless I voluntarily hopped on vent.
QUOTE
Coming out as gay in this game was a [Content removed]ing experience.

You were angsty af. I can't imagine how difficult that time in your life was, or how difficult it must be for anyone to come out. I remember hunting/pvping with you and being on vent. You were a really negative person. I'm guessing you were in a pretty [Content removed]ty place in the mid '00s, as most people are when they get heavily addicted to MMOs. I'm assuming you've grown up a little since then, but the game probably stirs up some negative emotions for you.
QUOTE
This game failed because it didn't look at other examples and try to emulate their success while maintaining the core of what makes the game unique (unlimited stats, player driven stories, player run politics).

Yup, but I'd throw pacing in there too. 1-99 was paced almost perfectly, and now early game dopamine gains are nonexistent for new players. Serious q: Do you ever think this game will be playable again? I would only ever consider playing if they made a new retro server, hence me lobbying for it.
QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 17 2016, 04:40 PM) *
Cursing at someone is not of the same magnitude as taking a dump in public. While both actions may displease people, only the latter action poses any actual risk of harm to people.
I don't know why you think an issue of health and sanitation is of the same caliber of offense as speaking a single word, even heatedly. It's not a particularly rational assessment.

HOLY [Content removed] LOL. The juxtaposition of your post and Conro's is utter insanity. How clueless are you? Do you seriously think words can't cause harm? It's 2016 ffs. When you say "even the jerkiest customer still deserves to access the service they are paying for" I'm guessing that includes people who made fun of Conro for being gay, huh?

You literally just said cursing at someone doesn't cause harm. Like, you actually typed those words out. What little respect I had for your intelligence is circling the drain =/

I mean, I'm guessing you aren't that dumb. You seem like the type who hates losing arguments so badly that they start saying things they don't even believe instead of admitting a minor defeat.

Posted by: Doctor Sep 18 2016, 03:14 AM

If words can harm you to the point that you need protection from them, then you don't live in the real world.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 18 2016, 08:46 AM

I suppose Elon Musk did say we're likely living in a simulation.

Not surprised that this thread has devolved into debating whether or not eBullying is harmful, considering how many old, bitter people are left trolling this forum. I'm not sure any of you give two [Content removed]s about NexusTK ever being playable again. Oh well, not like anyone reads this anyway laugh.gif

Posted by: Songa Sep 18 2016, 09:10 AM

Thank you halombobtk for displaying for all to see why this game is so damn toxic. Your passive aggressive nature is on point, like majority of the problem players. If you're so upset about nobody caring to change or whatever the [Content removed], then step away. Trust me when I say that it'll save you a lot of trouble. Writing on forums accompanied by mostly old players who most likely have stepped away from the game a long time ago won't do anything. Especially since Wony isn't known to look at these forums.

I also want to point out that I read maybe a sentence full of nonsense from this thread and I want to second hand stab myself because what the [Content removed].

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 18 2016, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 17 2016, 07:39 PM) *
HOLY [Content removed] LOL. The juxtaposition of your post and Conro's is utter insanity. How clueless are you? Do you seriously think words can't cause harm? It's 2016 ffs. When you say "even the jerkiest customer still deserves to access the service they are paying for" I'm guessing that includes people who made fun of Conro for being gay, huh?


So, there's something you've missed here.

Conro was using his experience as an example of how the player-ran justice system is highly selective in their interpretation of what is and isn't a moral outrage, and not at all consistent.

I don't believe Conro was saying they should have been banned, but rather people had been banned in others games for similar behavior. He was pointing out how the players who pretend to be judges cherry-pick what is punishable based not on objectivity but their own subjectivity. Moral crusaders like tip were totally cool with harassing people they didn't like for reasons they agreed with.

While I don't agree with harassing people at all, I am also pragmatic in that...

1. The NexusTK justice system does not stop harassment but merely empowers it

2. A better profanity filter, ignore system, and dungeon instancing would be more meaningful ways to reduce in-game harassment than continuing to defend a system that empowers certain kinds of harassment and ignores all others.

3. Players have no business deciding what players have broken which ToS rules, especially when players can manipulate the system to ensure people they don't like (for whatever petty reason) can't advance further in the game.

Also, words have emotional impact only when a person permits them to. No one in the virtual world that is NexusTK can do any meaningful harm to the player themselves, they can only waste the player's time by making them lose progress or annoy them. When you talk about banning customers from a service this has to be considered.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 20 2016, 01:02 AM

QUOTE (Songa @ Sep 18 2016, 09:10 AM) *
Thank you halombobtk for displaying for all to see why this game is so damn toxic. Your passive aggressive nature is on point, like majority of the problem players. If you're so upset about nobody caring to change or whatever the [Content removed], then step away. Trust me when I say that it'll save you a lot of trouble. Writing on forums accompanied by mostly old players who most likely have stepped away from the game a long time ago won't do anything. Especially since Wony isn't known to look at these forums.

I also want to point out that I read maybe a sentence full of nonsense from this thread and I want to second hand stab myself because what the [Content removed].


Wise words Songa. My motive for making an account and posting here was to try to get a thoughtful debate going with DM, Conro, and others about the viability of a new server, but it very quickly descended into another boring, derailed thread where DM goes off on the justice system being rigged. Still got some decent discussion going I guess, but all of this is pointless since Wony just doesn't really have the smarts to Make NexusTK Great Again. Pretty clear he wasn't responsible for the game's design during the glory days of the early/mid '00s. Hard to make improvements when he doesn't even know why the game was popular in the first place.

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 20 2016, 10:33 AM

I can agree with that.

QUOTE
derailed thread where DM goes off on the justice system being rigged.


To be fair the justice system was only discussed because you adamantly defended Sage as part of Sam san trials, and that merits a discussion about the Justice system by association.

Posted by: halombobtk Sep 20 2016, 11:26 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 20 2016, 11:33 AM) *
To be fair the justice system was only discussed because you adamantly defended Sage as part of Sam san trials, and that merits a discussion about the Justice system by association.


You're right. I was being dramatic. I went back and read my OP though, and that was just one of a list of opinions about what I thought made NexusTK great, so it was a bummer to see it steal the focus. Makes sense though, as the justice system is by far the most subjective since entrusting randoms on the internet with any power over players is always a risky proposition. I feel some of my other points are much stronger. The truckloads of dopamine from getting to sell exp at 99 are nonexistent. I really, truly believe the current game's butchered pacing takes 90% of the fun out of the game from a hunting standpoint. None of the exp envelope bs would even be relevant on a new server with the old pacing.

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