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> Overflow Damage, A good idea?
SungKen
post Apr 10 2007, 09:58 PM
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Well I hate to get this started on this subject but do you really think that it was fair for Kru to bring in Overflow damage, and not introduce it to Rogues as well for the most part. Only Sam-san rogues can use that feature, so it does no good for any rogues that arent extremely buff.


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Astea
post Apr 10 2007, 10:12 PM
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I'm just curious what rogues get.Maybe a weak BS?I can dream tongue.gif.If I could overflow stuff on my rogue,I would own some of the weaker 3 caves.I just need to get my warrior up in vita.Only 179k vita.I could leech in Horse2,but at Rage5,already could do that there.Anyway,I wonder what rogues will get.


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Tynan
post Apr 10 2007, 10:16 PM
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Perfectly fair. Rogues have been treated like spoiled princes ever since 4.0 - they need nothing, really. At best they need some minor help at certain stat ranges in PA hunting, however, warriors, even with this change, are still worse off in every facet of the game save for PAing things to death.

Overflow damage means almost nothing unless you are a huge warrior, anyway. Right now most rogues just see some graphics appear on agroup of monsters are like, 'I want it! Mine!' Just check and see how little damage is being done and then decide how great this is.

Besides, apparently Mug promised rogues something new, too, and I bet it will be cool and every bit as good, perhaps better. The cynic in me says better, just because status quos seldom change.
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Sebelle
post Apr 10 2007, 10:34 PM
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Anything that helps differentiate the paths, as long as its "balanced" seems fair. I can understand how this fits in with the definition of a warrior, anyhow :x


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PikuDamaru
post Apr 10 2007, 11:34 PM
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I'll start off by saying I have a Swift and a barely Wasabi Barbarian. That alone should give you some thoughts about what I think of overflow damage.

Basically, I think it's a good idea. Not entirely sure it belongs on Throwing axe, the spell alone gives a big advantage to anyone who has it (especially Fighter paths).

As far as it effecting all Warrior spells, Great. Warriors need what they can get to compete.

I'm actually a little disappointed that it isn't more useful. When it first released, I thought it would be a great solution to balance Warriors to Rogues.

When I first heard about it, I noticed that the 3 targets in the "back" won't get hit unless something is standing infront of the attacker. That alone would separate it nicely from Assault.

But if nothing changes from how it is right now, I definitely approve of this change.


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PIEMINISTER
post Apr 11 2007, 12:05 AM
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Does overflow work in pk environments?
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SilentS
post Apr 11 2007, 12:53 AM
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This was kinda needed in a way. Right now as it stands ((well, before this latest addition)), there was hardly any difference between a Rogue and Warrior. PA's and the Cunning ((and equivalent)) Flank and Backstab made sure of that.

If anybody even remembers how the paths were suppose to be:
Warriors- Kill multiple enemies at once at a moderate pace
Rogues- Kill a single enemy at a time very quickly

That is no longer the case, its now:
Warriors- Kill multiple enemies at once at a moderate pace
Rogues- Kill multiple enemies at once at a moderate pace, and be able to still kill a single target very quickly

When comparing the pros and cons on the Warrior Vs Rogue debate, it doesnt take much to see that Rogues have a large advantage. This is one of the few bonuses we get for being a warrior.

At the moment I highly doubt this would change much on the hunting grounds. Since most still think PA's are the way to go. So a fighter, dont matter if rogue or warrior, wouldnt have too many chances to actually attack sets for the most part. Unless they are hunting with a competent mage who knows how to make the sets on the fly ((not many of those left)). Everything will most likely still be "PA set this, PA set that". The only place we will notice it is when we are duoing with a poet somewhere.


Also, Monk's vita attack also has the carryover as well. From what I gather ((and guess)), anything that isnt a Warrior BASE spell, will probably have this removed. So non warrior spells, and all subpath related attacks will revert back to normal.

At this time, it currently does work in PK enviroments. Yet to be seen if it will stay or not. Or how it will even affect carnies/BL's when it hits you own teammates.


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PureLight
post Apr 11 2007, 01:25 AM
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QUOTE(Tynan @ Apr 10 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]31092[/snapback]

Perfectly fair. Rogues have been treated like spoiled princes ever since 4.0 - they need nothing, really. At best they need some minor help at certain stat ranges in PA hunting, however, warriors, even with this change, are still worse off in every facet of the game save for PAing things to death.

Overflow damage means almost nothing unless you are a huge warrior, anyway. Right now most rogues just see some graphics appear on agroup of monsters are like, 'I want it! Mine!' Just check and see how little damage is being done and then decide how great this is.

Besides, apparently Mug promised rogues something new, too, and I bet it will be cool and every bit as good, perhaps better. The cynic in me says better, just because status quos seldom change.

See, the thing is this is a huge thing for really big warriors, as Conro said in his Comm board post, the thing that keeps really buff people from staying far out of reach of smaller characters is that there comes a point where you can't physically kill any faster, only as quickly as you can cast your vita attacks. If a warrior is able to 1 hit with Berserk in Anch3 he is going to keep killing at the same speed no matter how much his stats go up. With this addition that same warrior may be able to kill 4 monsters with karak, 4 with WW, 4 with Assault, and 5 every 2 berserks. While a Rogue of the same stats will be able to kill 1 with LS, 1 with DA, 1 with Focused blade and 0 with Bladestorm.
On top of that this allows really buff people to gain stats at a comparable rate to those well under them, the moment one of these warriors is able to kill all 4 things in every set with every vita attack noone will catch up with them EVER again except maybe the pair of poets who are able to handle them.
I mean I think it's cool that LPC is the 18th most powerful warrior in the nexus despite the fact he's only been here 2 years, it's nice that his stats arent too much lower than SuWan's or any other tops, that's because he gains stats quicker because he can kill at the same speed and needs less exp to get the same ammount of stats.

PureLight


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Cerixis
post Apr 11 2007, 05:25 AM
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This is only my opinion. So please don't take it personally. But from my experience...are you kidding me?! I've hunted with Gimpy, who happens to be a beast when it comes to hunting with him. What I mean is by the time I killed 1, maybe 2, monsters, he has gone and killed 4 or even 5 monsters! And this him using vita attacks, while I am trying to cycle. Granted that Gimpy has very high stats, but adding overflow, just makes me feel useless.
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Hugen
post Apr 11 2007, 08:28 AM
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I think it is a good thing.

It allows the damage done by attacks to actually (almost) be done. This does good things for the Warriors lopsided attacks. Frankly, I don't know why they penalized it to never have a chance of doing full damage. If the attacks are balanced versus a single target, they should be balanced against multiple targets.

I also like it for providing a possible alternative to Polearms, since the set requirements are different.


I give it 4 1/2 stars (out of 5).
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Vortextk
post Apr 11 2007, 09:53 AM
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I don't see how everyone says this "will never work" with PA sets and how it's "so hard or different" to change setting to feature this. You're kidding, right?

When I trio a cave, I work a diamond around the fighter, and then paralyze monsters RIGHT next to the ones that are in the diamond.

..0X
0X..X
X..W..X
..X..X0
..0X0

A bit hard to do graphically with letters, but best I can do. The W is the warrior, X's are the diamond and 0's are monsters paralyzed. This is rather new for me as I continually work on my setting. Instead of my usual gridding(as I hunted in very few trios until recently, more often poet + 2 fighters or a whole 2 combos), I keep monsters closed in on the diamond, but always paralyzed. Fighter kills 2 with pa? Unpara, para, unpara, para, blind blind. I've just moved two from outside the diamond to inside it without worry that they might get "stuck inside" because I make sure they are paralyzed before any of the diamond dies so I have full control. Fighter is really buff and 1hits most the time with vitas? Even more important I do this.

By just working on regular PA setting, I've already been starting to use an "overflow vita" setup. It won't be completely efficient and I'm not the best setter in the game by a long shot, but with a simple "Oh yeah, try even harder to keep ones outside diamond paralyzed" I'll most likely be able to make good use of this.

I also posted on Comm board along with Conro. Few of my friends can take advantage of this at all(because of stats), and half of the "buff" people I hunt with are rogues so neither can they. I'm just afraid of having any top able to gain stats as quick(and in the same amount of time) as someone 10 or 20 places under him on the power list.


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Tynan
post Apr 11 2007, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE(Hugen @ Apr 11 2007, 06:28 AM) [snapback]31121[/snapback]

I think it is a good thing.

It allows the damage done by attacks to actually (almost) be done. This does good things for the Warriors lopsided attacks. Frankly, I don't know why they penalized it to never have a chance of doing full damage. If the attacks are balanced versus a single target, they should be balanced against multiple targets.

I also like it for providing a possible alternative to Polearms, since the set requirements are different.
I give it 4 1/2 stars (out of 5).


Well, I agree it is a bit weak for 98% of warriors. For the top 20 warriors, it probably is not too bad. Not great, perhaps, but not bad. For me, a lowly 800K warrior, it is nearly useless. Sure, it looks pretty, and it obviously is better than nothing, so I am not whining, but my overflow in Magus3, Whirlwinding something in black, does not bring the others below even mid-green. That little damage is not noticeable when a PA strike does as much (at least on R6).

I intend to examine two things in the coming weeks:

1.) How much this changes hunting, and how efficient it is (I'll need info from 2M+ warriors as I am not in that league)
2.) What rogues are getting (apparently they were promised something, too)

From that I am going to see is the 20% modifier is too little or just right. It certainly is not too much, and I suspect it is indeed too little, though I am a warrior so call me biased. Remember, this is the modifier applied to the the damage above what is needed - often you barely have any extra, and to have that extra pared down by 80% is rough. This means a 1M blow with 200K extra damage only gives 40K of overflow, which is then modified further by enemy AC. Think about that - a 1M attack ends up yielding a paltry 40K damage or less, 1/20 of the amount to kill what it did in the first place.

Oh, and remember, this game is not just for 100 players - it is for thousands. We cannot balance it strictly keeping in mind hunting addicts. Yes, it should be considered, but saying, 'SuWaN can one-Rend 4 creatures at once!' is not a fair argument, as a 3M+ Vitality warrior is many times stronger than the average.
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FallenEngell
post Apr 11 2007, 12:21 PM
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lol Rogues QQ'ing lrn2play

A warrior is mentioned to do way more damage than a rogue, nevermind huge stats, with vita attacks. Think how much harder it is on the Poet. A rogue and warrior will be doing comparable damage with PA's but if it came down to soloing, a rogue would always win. Same with PVP, rogues should always beat warriors, and boy how they do. A slight bonus to warriors in pve, vs a rogue being able to do virtually everything a warrior can, since there is no such thing as tanks really.


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bullmunk
post Apr 11 2007, 12:29 PM
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I like it. Warriors should have this, despite how weak it it.

This will be fun in carnage if it works in PK>

But how bout this.

My Restore gets Overflow Heal to other fighters.

Mwhahaha.


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Zfire
post Apr 11 2007, 12:32 PM
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Why wouldn't this work for Inferno? Its the same level ( ee san ) as Assault.. Just seems like it should work
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Hugen
post Apr 11 2007, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE(Zfire @ Apr 11 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]31139[/snapback]

Why wouldn't this work for Inferno? Its the same level ( ee san ) as Assault.. Just seems like it should work


Because it doesn't work for Assault. It only works for single target spells to over-flow onto adjacent targets. If the spell is already multi-target, it doesn't apply.

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Seressence
post Apr 11 2007, 01:27 PM
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I think this is a very good thing; whatever sways people from using polearms and swing damage exclusively is very much needed. But I think it should be stronger.

Right now, lets say a 2.5 mil war karaks a monster in black. That means it will be like 500k karaks on 3 others, and I don't think that's enough to one-hit monsters in higher caves (correct me if I'm wrong, never got quite that buff). Unless the warrior knows he can one-hit the three others, then the attack is a complete waste because 40% of the attack is disappearing.

Another reason is that the sets take effort to make and are almost the complete opposite of a normal polearm set. There should be a bigger reward for making a set and using an attack on a weak creature, instead of just a slight extra.

I understand that some uber-buff warriors probably could own the world with a strong version of this, but I also feel (and have felt for a while) that level 4 caves are needed... Give people a little challenge and 600k warriors competing with the 2.5mil ones is also a bit unfair.

P.S. Has anyone tried this using cows? It seems like a good strategy would be to take a polearm set, summon a cow into it, and WW it. Almost all of the overflow damage would go to the 3 creatures around it. This would also be safe for Kwi-sin warriors, because there would be no monsters around to cheap him.
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Tynan
post Apr 11 2007, 01:39 PM
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Well, I did not want to discuss it, as I have known about this 'exploit' for a while, but Seressence has let it out of the bag.

Currently, one can do fairly massive damage abusing summoned creatures.

How? Think about how initial damage is calculated - off the AC and Sleep status of the creature killed.

How can this be exploited?

Consider a druid summoning a Rabbit. A Rabbit has +100 AC, base, and with Scourge this goes to +150 AC - then add Dishearten. Sleep it to add another 30% damage (I think that is Sleep's multiplier).

Consider what now happens when that rabbit is used to start to the overflow:

1.) The Whirlwind now does about 300% of its normal damage to zero AC

2.) The Rabbit has basically no Vitality, so it is ALL overflow

Using this exploit, warriors who are buff, but not buff enough to overflow one-hit off a black Vortex monster with good AC, can overflow off a CoW with bad AC and kill three things.

So, 20% of 300% is 60%, which is very high. This means the warrior only loses perhaps 40% of his normal attack, but now strikes three other things. This means he does 180% of his normal damage.

Note that the math above is a THEORETICAL example. I have not tested exactly what percentage killing off a rabbit is compared to killing off, say, a Hunter 3 enemy. All I do know is that it can be exploited.

And yes, I have reported this to KRU.
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kru
post Apr 11 2007, 02:25 PM
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I already considered that. Go ahead and try it.

:)
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Hugen
post Apr 11 2007, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE(Tynan @ Apr 11 2007, 02:39 PM) [snapback]31144[/snapback]

Well, I did not want to discuss it, as I have known about this 'exploit' for a while, but Seressence has let it out of the bag.
...
And yes, I have reported this to KRU.


That should be fairly easy exploit to fix, assuming they idea of hitting a summoned creature for "splitting" purposes isn't considered an exploit.

Kru simply needs to make sure that damage is "reset" to AC 0 between calculations.

The AC's of each creature should effect the amount of damage necessary to kill it, but should have no effect on the overall size of the "damage pool" available for splitting.

If your Rabbit above has 10 vita, it would take 5 damage to kill normally (+100%), 4 with Scourge, and 3 with Scourge + Doze.

The difference between Scourging/Dozing and nothing at all should be only 2 points of damage available for splitting.

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