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> Stein's Rt Post
BeffyCabeza
post Aug 27 2013, 01:56 PM
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Stein's post on Rambling Thoughts is very interesting. While I'm not registered (yes I have a newblet in Tangun that's level 12 and can read that board tongue.gif) it's interesting to see this kind of feedback from a GM, and really the first longer note we've seen from Stein.

Hopefully it's a step in the right direction.

Obviously there has been a lot of discussion in the past few days about the decision to change the cave requirements in the middle of the event to sort people into the appropriate cave based on grade in addition to stats, so I'd like to shed a little bit of light on that situation and talk about what we're going to do going forward.

First, the reason we made the change is that having characters of a higher grade in a low stat cave is simply not what was intended. We spend a lot of time trying to balance caves appropriately and we can't effectively make a balanced cave for both people with low stats and people who have weapons, armor, and spells of a much higher grade. It's by definition no longer balanced and unfair to anyone who is in the appropriate cave for their level/stats.

The reason that hunting and event caves only checked stats and not grade prior to this change is because stats and grades were never meant to be separate. Someone who had Sam san items and spells would be in a Sam san cave because they had Sam san stats. The situations that allowed people to reduce their stats below their grades were loopholes (that were subsequently closed), and while not violating the letter of law of this stat/grade correlation, it certainly violated the spirit of it.

One argument for keeping the status quo is that the previous arrangement provided liquidity in level 99 events items that would otherwise be rarer and therefore more expensive. Understand though that if this is indeed a problem, then we need to correct it so that drops are balanced for the level 99 caves and dropping at an appropriate rate for level 99 characters. It's not something that should be artificially corrected by Ee san and Sam san characters to the detriment of the event experience for anybody who legitimately falls into that cave.

I understand that there was a community vote at the time that the bug was fixed and the result was to let people keep their grade and their lower stats. Why it was an option that was put to a vote I don't know, but we're talking about preserving a situation in which people can bring stronger weapons and spells (that those who are supposed to be in the cave are not qualified to get) into a lower cave in order to clear out monsters that are not balanced for these stronger items.

So that brings us to what happens next. The last complaint I've heard in regards to this change is that people invested a great deal of time and effort into getting their characters up to a certain grade before reducing their stats, and this change makes their characters effectively useless. Certainly an Ee san with just-over-99 stats cannot be expected to survive or hunt in an Ee san cave. So in order to fix this, in the next few days we'll be announcing a process for people who have reduced their stats to have them restored to the grade that they have obtained. Additionally, in the next few weeks we will be pushing out the grade check to Mythic and Vortex caves as well.

I apologize that this change was abrupt and seemingly made on a whim, but I'd like you to know that it was not. In the future I will try to communicate any big changes like this better in order to provide a little insight into the change and make it clear why we're doing what we are. It's hard to change anything that has been a certain way for so long, but that alone should not be a reason for never making the change.

Stein


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Moraghul
post Aug 27 2013, 03:30 PM
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I have no prolem with that post, it makes perfect sense Game design wise, and they offer a solution for people with said characters so that they don't get TOO penalized for it.

As long as they follow up with the promise of balancing Level 99 Items (which could also be done differently, such as letting lower grade items drop in higher grade caves, or offering an NPC to "downgrade" a weapon at a price of experience/gold whatever (can always use more goldsinks, can't we ?wink.gif), then this a perfect way to handle the situation.

Thumbs up from me on that, and I could only hope for nexus' sake that more involvment from Stein on such things and game design in general would happen. There's a reason bigger MMOs have a community team and dev presence on forums/twitters/social media smile.gif

Mora.
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Cuchulain
post Aug 27 2013, 07:52 PM
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I was -really- surprised to see him post anything, let alone a detailed post like that one. I hope it's a sign of things to come.


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crimsonvisual
post Aug 28 2013, 04:02 AM
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All I have to say... is about time! Akiudo/Platoon, Shatteredgem, and Truley have been ruining the economy on 99 items for YEARS. Should they get money/stats back? HELL NO. If you don't realize this, but due to their "advantage" they have farmed well over 200 99 Bone pairs last Lost mines 2 years ago. There won't be any shortage of 99 items for the rest of this games life, nor will there ever be "sink hole." To make such claims is just utterly ridiculous considering A: we just had an event where everyone below 99 pretty much leeched to Il stats B: Those who are 99, plan to stay 99 and have the equipment they need/want already & C: There isn't enough players coming in to even suggest we NEED more 99 items, the ones currently in the market place can supply this game till it's end.

And in case anyone was wondering, I am the one who sent a ticket to Kru, complete of screenshots detailing every character who was sac'ed in the event cave they did not belong in or to. I laughed so hard when Akiudo made his complaints on RT : This guy has tons of money, and he still wants more? lawl

Before anyone gets on my case (which I don't think anyone will) What they were doing was cheating/bug exploitation. Anyone who was in a cave with them, could not hunt efficiently with them steam rolling through bosses/mobs. I maybe could have understood one mark... maybe, but come on, 5 level mark gear in a 99 cave is so utterly unfair, its insane they haven't done something until now.

I am for one, so happy they did. Now that the "sacs" are gone, legitimate players have now moved into the caves they were so graciously hogging.

Thank you Stein,this was the best move to make, and it was definitely needed.

Oh, and if ya'll are worried about vortex, I wouldn't be. People claiming they can't hunt 99 bosses, haven't really tried with a 99 character. I have been on several hunts, with no issues on boss (just takes forever, but that's the point! no boss should be steamrolled)
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poetone
post Aug 28 2013, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE (Stein @ Aug 27 2013, 01:56 PM) *
We spend a lot of time trying to balance caves appropriately

This made me laugh pretty hard this morning. Glad Kru has developed a sense of humor!

poetone
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Hijack
post Aug 28 2013, 09:25 AM
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Cool now work on balancing all the other problems in the game please, and you may see some people return. How about first up, get rogues on par with warriors in PvE, and then second make ... you know the other 8 vortex caves viable to hunt in. Hunter and Anch are pretty damn boring.
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BeffyCabeza
post Aug 28 2013, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Aug 28 2013, 10:25 AM) *
Cool now work on balancing all the other problems in the game please, and you may see some people return. How about first up, get rogues on par with warriors in PvE, and then second make ... you know the other 8 vortex caves viable to hunt in. Hunter and Anch are pretty damn boring.


Not to mention making more than 1 room in them 'good' where you have to fight groups that are in there or come in on top of you and try to 'force' you out. There's a lot of room to improve hunting caves in all locations.


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Doctor
post Aug 28 2013, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Aug 28 2013, 07:25 AM) *
Cool now work on balancing all the other problems in the game please, and you may see some people return. How about first up, get rogues on par with warriors in PvE, and then second make ... you know the other 8 vortex caves viable to hunt in. Hunter and Anch are pretty damn boring.

Want to rent a Mazda down to KRU and see if we can get jobs there?

ukno


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Brancrese
post Aug 28 2013, 04:13 PM
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One of the most comprehensive, logical, and eloquent responses I've ever seen a GM put out.

Honestly, how many times over the years have GMs been barely able to put two coherent thoughts together? Stein seems to break that mold. It's also a bold decision done in what is clearly the best interest of the game, but not necessarily all the players. This is something Kru over the years has been hesitant if not completely unwilling to do, as they've catered to the whims of the playing elite time and time again. It's refreshing and encouraging to see, and hopefully a sign of things to come.

I don't even play anymore, and my character has long since been purged. But the reasons I loved the game at one point can still exist again, maybe, just maybe it can find a way to get back to the roots that made it great. I won't hold my breath, but ya just never know.
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Adam
post Aug 28 2013, 06:27 PM
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Next item on the agenda: Implement a stat cap and reset the stats of players who are over it back down to it -- give these players a proportionally equivalent (equivalent to the amount of extra stats they had) amount of 'experience gems' that can be socketed into gear so they still come out on top of the rest.


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SilentS
post Aug 28 2013, 10:00 PM
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For my useless 2 cents on this... I say dont touch their stats. Just make it so that unless you are the stats of the mark you are, you cannot use any of the items or spells associated with that mark. A Sa sac'd down to 99 sub Ilsan would only be able to use the 1-99 spells only. Any Ilsan+ spells and items would be unusable to them till they regained the right to use them. That would stop them from abusing the system like they have been, plus it would not give them a free ride back to base mark stats. In essence, 100% lv 99 in every aspect outside of path name.


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Hijack
post Aug 28 2013, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (SilentS @ Aug 28 2013, 10:00 PM) *
For my useless 2 cents on this... I say dont touch their stats. Just make it so that unless you are the stats of the mark you are, you cannot use any of the items or spells associated with that mark. A Sa sac'd down to 99 sub Ilsan would only be able to use the 1-99 spells only. Any Ilsan+ spells and items would be unusable to them till they regained the right to use them. That would stop them from abusing the system like they have been, plus it would not give them a free ride back to base mark stats. In essence, 100% lv 99 in every aspect outside of path name.


It's not really fair to punish people who used a legitimate system in the game. There was no abuse. The system was there to remove stats, and they thought outside the box. If it was an exploit, they would have been banned. Kru is offering a redemption because they are changing policy. It's a good move.
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HoLLyWOoD
post Aug 29 2013, 12:38 AM
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I would hate to see this carry over to carnages, even though you can only be 1 rank higher it is essentially the same exploit.



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crimsonvisual
post Aug 29 2013, 04:03 AM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Aug 28 2013, 10:19 PM) *
It's not really fair to punish people who used a legitimate system in the game. There was no abuse. The system was there to remove stats, and they thought outside the box. If it was an exploit, they would have been banned. Kru is offering a redemption because they are changing policy. It's a good move.


First off, they knew what they were doing, sac'ing that low was never ever intended to be used that way. It was found to be a problem, people voted, and it was stopped. They then found ANOTHER way to do he same thing using alignment switching. So to me that's knowing something is bad, knowing they will eventually stop it, yet they did it anyway cause of the EXTREME advantage it gave them. Eventually this was stopped too from letting you go down too low, but the chars who already did it, got to enjoy several years of farming with their gear. And that's about 4+ years of them making a ton of money this way.

So yeah, give them the stats back, but you are telling them to try to find another way to do it since there obviously won't be consequences. If it was truly gonna be a fair deal to all, then they should have to trade in all the gold/items they obtained since they sac'ed to get those stats back.

And just put all that aside for a moment, ANY other game would have caught this 4 years ago, and if anyone was still using such a tactic in another game, they would have been banned for bug abuse, plain and simple.
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SilentS
post Aug 29 2013, 06:54 AM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Aug 28 2013, 09:19 PM) *
It's not really fair to punish people who used a legitimate system in the game. There was no abuse. The system was there to remove stats, and they thought outside the box. If it was an exploit, they would have been banned. Kru is offering a redemption because they are changing policy. It's a good move.

Legal loophole or not, it was knowingly abused since it was never meant to be used in this manner to begin with. Now that loophole is closed, damage control is in effect. Those who sac'd down should get to keep their stats, just cant use the spells/items that should have had the minimum requirement of those stats to use in the first place. Giving free stats to those people is kinda like a slap in the face to those who never abused it. Saying crime pays is a bit of a stretch, but not too far from the truth in this case.


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crimsonvisual
post Aug 29 2013, 09:44 AM
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QUOTE (SilentS @ Aug 29 2013, 06:54 AM) *
Legal loophole or not, it was knowingly abused since it was never meant to be used in this manner to begin with. Now that loophole is closed, damage control is in effect. Those who sac'd down should get to keep their stats, just cant use the spells/items that should have had the minimum requirement of those stats to use in the first place. Giving free stats to those people is kinda like a slap in the face to those who never abused it. Saying crime pays is a bit of a stretch, but not too far from the truth in this case.


And.. I can almost guarantee this wasn't brought up before via tickets by other players complaining. The following :

QUOTE
One argument for keeping the status quo is that the previous arrangement provided liquidity in level 99 events items that would otherwise be rarer and therefore more expensive. Understand though that if this is indeed a problem, then we need to correct it so that drops are balanced for the level 99 caves and dropping at an appropriate rate for level 99 characters. It's not something that should be artificially corrected by Ee san and Sam san characters to the detriment of the event experience for anybody who legitimately falls into that cave.


Suggests to me that when this happened, a novel of tickets must have been sent in. So funny to try and tell a company a good justification for unbalancing their game... Why of course its for YOUR benefit!

I think Mug was just way easier to convince in the past years. Any tickets that got sent in were probably dismissed because of the vote put into place (and I wonder too...how many people got payed to vote on that one!) thinking it was Sac'd character when in fact another method was used. The only reason it was considered a "loop hole" is because of the wording most likely put into the game at sacrifice/alignment change ie: It doesn't say you "Can't" therefore you obviously can. A normal person would stop after say I don't know... stating down two marks or so, and say "Hmmm, this doesn't seem right... maybe I should stop and ticket someone to be sure?" Instead, it was more like : "Wow! This is awesome! I wonder how far I can go?3 marks, 4 marks...wait ! 5 marks! Now I get to wear my Sa Gear in 99 cave! MONIES"

There once was a bug in a halloween event that let you turn in for karma repeatedly. It never said you couldn't, so people did it. Everyone who got caught abusing it, had their karma fully reset to squirrel. I hope the process they are going to suggest at least involve some sort of punishment, but you can only hope.

It was rather awesome Stein took action so fast. I hope we get to see more out of him.
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Musoyan
post Aug 29 2013, 03:31 PM
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people have been allowed to abuse so many loopholes and bugs in this game for so long without punishment. people are just so used to doing it and getting away with it that I can't blame them for being pissed now.It's good stein knows how to resolve the issue but it won't make a difference in the long run.
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solman
post Aug 29 2013, 08:16 PM
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I was not going to say a single word here on this subject but I changed my mind. You guys will soon see what effects this change will have on the game. How much of an extreme they are going to take this. Do not take my word for it, just watch it happen. Especially for all of you guys who are praising this change as 100% good thing.

Do not get me wrong, This can be a good thing if it was done right. Its not and just being done and seeing where things fall. Do I personally like this change even if it was done right? Hell no, I wish it went the other direction and made it easier for anybody to do it. The stat gap is constantly increasing. This was just one way to narrow it a little bit.

Far as items go, that was 100% platoon for the 99er bones last LM, Truly was not even sacced then. But this will show just how imbalanced caves really are. We all agree they are. Now lets see what kind of changes and how long it will take to make those. Hell Cave 3 in leeches the boss is 1 million vita. Cave 3 nothing should be even over 100k vita let alone 1 million vita. We are talking people who are non 99ers here.

But again regardless, it will be interesting to see how much the game will fail now because only a few actually understand the effects this really has. Saccing is not a new thing, its been around since 1999. Its alright tho, like I said lets see what happens vs being reckless.

Also I want to point out is that despite these sacced characters are basically useless, even if they do not restore them to at least mark stats, how many accounts you think are people not gonna register cause of it? Im not talking just platoon or few of these extremes. I am talking about every single sacced character who vortex bosses, rab 2 amber hunts. as well as quite a few other places. This also effects people who come in and take advantage of those. Your going to see a lot less new players introduced because of this. More so then now when we all agree there are very few new players at all.

Do not be fooled, this will carry over to carnages eventually. Cause its the same principal of exploit despite it being only 1 vita or something. Same concept so this will be effected I promise. maybe not right away but it will.

The only point im making in this post before I get flamed (and I will) is to keep an open mind and see the situation for what it is. Not just for those specific individuals but the game as a whole.


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Interstate
post Aug 29 2013, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (solman @ Aug 29 2013, 08:16 PM) *
I was not going to say a single word here on this subject but I changed my mind. You guys will soon see what effects this change will have on the game. How much of an extreme they are going to take this. Do not take my word for it, just watch it happen. Especially for all of you guys who are praising this change as 100% good thing.

Do not get me wrong, This can be a good thing if it was done right. Its not and just being done and seeing where things fall. Do I personally like this change even if it was done right? Hell no, I wish it went the other direction and made it easier for anybody to do it. The stat gap is constantly increasing. This was just one way to narrow it a little bit.

Far as items go, that was 100% platoon for the 99er bones last LM, Truly was not even sacced then. But this will show just how imbalanced caves really are. We all agree they are. Now lets see what kind of changes and how long it will take to make those. Hell Cave 3 in leeches the boss is 1 million vita. Cave 3 nothing should be even over 100k vita let alone 1 million vita. We are talking people who are non 99ers here.

But again regardless, it will be interesting to see how much the game will fail now because only a few actually understand the effects this really has. Saccing is not a new thing, its been around since 1999. Its alright tho, like I said lets see what happens vs being reckless.

Also I want to point out is that despite these sacced characters are basically useless, even if they do not restore them to at least mark stats, how many accounts you think are people not gonna register cause of it? Im not talking just platoon or few of these extremes. I am talking about every single sacced character who vortex bosses, rab 2 amber hunts. as well as quite a few other places. This also effects people who come in and take advantage of those. Your going to see a lot less new players introduced because of this. More so then now when we all agree there are very few new players at all.

Do not be fooled, this will carry over to carnages eventually. Cause its the same principal of exploit despite it being only 1 vita or something. Same concept so this will be effected I promise. maybe not right away but it will.

The only point im making in this post before I get flamed (and I will) is to keep an open mind and see the situation for what it is. Not just for those specific individuals but the game as a whole.


solman may be difficult for some to get along with at times, but he is an amazing tester. Any project I've been programming or designing that I've had him on board as a tester (known or unknown) has proved this to me time after time. This isn't really a matter I care much about (although I tend to take advantage of loop holes and funny matters) but I have learned to take his insight on these matters seriously. He doesn't always understand what I understand, but he certainly has a talent for seeing things most blatantly overlook and he pays enough attention and takes certain things seriously enough to understand in greater detail a lot of things most take for granted.

As for Stein's post, it was very well written, articulated, and I applaud him for trying to deal with the community directly in this manner. He seems like he can hold his own, but I do worry about him a bit as we all know what a fickle beast our little rambling community is. I quit judge years ago (a dozen or more?) because I didn't want interstate to be known and it was affecting my character's day to day too much. I think all the GM's have been great. Hopefully we don't beat Stein back into the unknown like we did all the others in the past.


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Doctor
post Aug 29 2013, 10:53 PM
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first of all, solman you are dumb this has nothing to do with carnages. for the first time in your life you were making halfway decent points and then you blew it. i was pullin for you man... pullin for you!

second of all you also need to understand that the characters took out new players or casual players abilities to make money off of events, caves, their own stats, farming certain things, whatever. it may not be good for you, and it may make the prices increase for some things, but it will make the community not better to have them.

but lastly lets not forget it hardly matters because nexus became the game you never wanted to touch, a game where it truly is pay to win (buy karma, sell for gold, buy leeches) asian grindfest, with the realization that the pk and elixir elements which the game thrived on for core community members are almost all but dead, and the rp community is a shell of what it has used to be, you kind of get the feeling that maybe it's time for people to actually start stepping away from it instead of trying to prop it up in order to move on with their online lives.


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