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Nexus Forums _ Questions, Requests, and Help Forum _ Where Have All The Do Gone?

Posted by: Knoble Feb 22 2010, 05:22 PM

For the couple of months i've been gone I've only seen 3-4 wakling around the lands. Looking at the user list there seems to be only about 60 "active" members.
Is there any reason for this?

Posted by: Skum Feb 22 2010, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (Knoble @ Feb 22 2010, 05:22 PM) *
For the couple of months i've been gone I've only seen 3-4 wakling around the lands. Looking at the user list there seems to be only about 60 "active" members.
Is there any reason for this?


Its like pretty much every other organization, slowly collapsing.


Do is going the way of the dodo (see what I did there?)

Posted by: Kensi Feb 22 2010, 08:14 PM

Awwwmh, so not true.

We're around, some just aren't overtly recognizable (not holding their Do blades or items, etc.). Others stay around doing stuff for their clans, or in the circle and event areas doing things for the path. Many travel very low-key around the kingdoms. Na' mean?

Since you've been gone, when/if ever you come back, take a look around beyond a few gates. I see Do all the time in community events, so there's a good starting stalking place.

Posted by: Interstate Feb 22 2010, 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Feb 22 2010, 08:14 PM) *
Awwwmh, so not true.

We're around, some just aren't overtly recognizable (not holding their Do blades or items, etc.). Others stay around doing stuff for their clans, or in the circle and event areas doing things for the path. Many travel very low-key around the kingdoms. Na' mean?

Since you've been gone, when/if ever you come back, take a look around beyond a few gates. I see Do all the time in community events, so there's a good starting stalking place.


Knoble was referring to the actual head count of the path and that Do has the least active members of all the paths. However, it seems to me that they are all pretty low (besides perhaps Barbarian and Monk).

Posted by: Kensi Feb 22 2010, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (Interstate @ Feb 22 2010, 08:48 PM) *
Knoble was referring to the actual head count of the path....



QUOTE (Knoble @ Feb 22 2010, 05:22 PM) *
... 3-4 wakling around the lands....



Posted by: Interstate Feb 23 2010, 01:36 AM

I guess you ignored the second part of his post and I ignored the first part, Kensi. Good work.

QUOTE (The Great Knoble)
Looking at the user list there seems to be only about 60 "active" members.
Is there any reason for this?

Posted by: MainAttraction Feb 23 2010, 01:57 AM

Look at how many are registered but haven't logged on in ages (10).

Then factor in the alts on the same account (3-5 according to Michike)

It's a product of 2 things. Stupid path rulings and the game dying.

I guarantee that the Do will go under 50 before the summer (I know 2 Do who are not re-registering and instead playing the new Star Trek MMO). It will be interesting to see what happens and if they really do delete them as threatened with the quota.

Posted by: Dritz Feb 23 2010, 02:08 AM

I would imagine as we approach summer the path will be infused with a bit more energy. One does wonder if they are suffering from lack of interest, elitism, or high standards.

Posted by: IamAmage Feb 23 2010, 09:29 AM

One reason you wouldn't notice too many Do is they tend to not be as "flashy" as most other subpaths may be, and wear humble garbs.. sometimes even looking like poets.

Another reason is because they're so pro nobody's good enough for them!

Posted by: Alston Feb 23 2010, 10:14 AM

Wait... so you mean to tell me there's more than 4 people anywhere, at any given time, in a single location at the same time? Except the gates, of course. tongue.gif

Posted by: SSaiYen Feb 23 2010, 01:29 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Feb 23 2010, 02:57 AM) *
It's a product of 2 things. Stupid path rulings and the game dying.


Oh noes, the game is dying, everyone is unregged, all the paths are low, oh wait...did'nt someone say the same thing 8 years ago..7 years ago, 6 years ago, 5 years ago, 4 years ago..k hope you got the point now.



Posted by: Cirran Feb 23 2010, 02:12 PM

QUOTE (SSaiYen @ Feb 23 2010, 12:29 PM) *
Oh noes, the game is dying, everyone is unregged, all the paths are low, oh wait...did'nt someone say the same thing 8 years ago..7 years ago, 6 years ago, 5 years ago, 4 years ago..k hope you got the point now.


Yeah but its been declining still. That trend is very real. Its just a matter of new lows still continuing to shock us.

As far as stupid rulings from subpaths being detrimental I couldn't agree more. I can't fathom how I was ever a part of a class that imposed rules which restricted the fun of many while promoting the enjoyment of the few.

Posted by: SSaiYen Feb 23 2010, 02:18 PM

QUOTE (Cirran @ Feb 23 2010, 03:12 PM) *
Yeah but its been declining still. That trend is very real. Its just a matter of new lows still continuing to shock us.


That may be so, but the truth is that the game will only die when Kru decides to stop maintaining it.

Posted by: Musoyan Feb 23 2010, 03:05 PM

People want to be able to wear vortex weapons, vortex armor, etc while hunting. They want to be able to wear polearms, etc. They don't want to have to wear spring crap in public.

whats the point of Do again? I wouldn't be surprised if the elder (geen) isn't just someone alt holding the position. Last legend mark was obtained 3 months ago..

Posted by: Twerky Feb 23 2010, 04:56 PM

QUOTE (Musoyan @ Feb 23 2010, 01:05 PM) *
People want to be able to wear vortex weapons, vortex armor, etc while hunting. They want to be able to wear polearms, etc. They don't want to have to wear spring crap in public.

whats the point of Do again? I wouldn't be surprised if the elder (geen) isn't just someone alt holding the position. Last legend mark was obtained 3 months ago..


The Do are able to wear Vortex weapons, armor in public. They're able to use whatever they'd like in hunting. If certain people decided to learn a bit about the path instead of speaking out of ignorance they'd know it has a lot to offer.

As far as why the numbers in the path are low.. it's mostly because to the general public believe the path doesn't have a lot to offer. It also appears to be one of the hardest paths to become apart of. When in fact it's just as easy as Chongun and the like if you put the effort into joining.

Posted by: Musoyan Feb 23 2010, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (Twerky @ Feb 23 2010, 04:56 PM) *
The Do are able to wear Vortex weapons, armor in public. They're able to use whatever they'd like in hunting. If certain people decided to learn a bit about the path instead of speaking out of ignorance they'd know it has a lot to offer.

As far as why the numbers in the path are low.. it's mostly because to the general public the path doesn't have a lot to offer. It also appears to be one of the hardest paths to become apart of. When in fact it's just as easy as Chongun and the like if you put the effort into joining.

Uhh I've had more than enough Do's tell me Vortex armor and polearms are forbidden. But ok, its me that should be learning more..

Posted by: Kensi Feb 23 2010, 05:59 PM

I like my polearm so much it I had it engraved! biggrin.gif

If I was lucky or wealthy enough to come by a Vortex armor, I'd probably wear it too when I'm in caves. I know a few Do who have them, and who wear them.

Y'all should swing by the Do Question and Answer event sometime. smile.gif I'll make you tea and sammiches myself.

Posted by: Twerky Feb 23 2010, 06:01 PM

QUOTE (Musoyan @ Feb 23 2010, 03:09 PM) *
Uhh I've had more than enough Do's tell me Vortex armor and polearms are forbidden. But ok, its me that should be learning more..



You should. Because Do are able to use Vortex armor and Polearms. I don't know why anyone would say differently.

Posted by: Snikrot Feb 23 2010, 06:32 PM

A Do can use a polearm when he/she is able to forge a Do blade.

I am not expert in Do questions but correct me if I am wrong!

Posted by: Interstate Feb 23 2010, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (Dritz @ Feb 23 2010, 02:08 AM) *
I would imagine as we approach summer the path will be infused with a bit more energy. One does wonder if they are suffering from lack of interest, elitism, or high standards.


Elitism and wrong standards.

QUOTE (IamAmage @ Feb 23 2010, 09:29 AM) *
One reason you wouldn't notice too many Do is they tend to not be as "flashy" as most other subpaths may be, and wear humble garbs.. sometimes even looking like poets.

Another reason is because they're so pro nobody's good enough for them!


They are very proud of their super elite humble garbs.... lol


I hate elitism, I'd never join a path that is currently or ever has been elitist. I'm just too leet for that nonsense.



Posted by: Skum Feb 23 2010, 10:41 PM

QUOTE (Interstate @ Feb 23 2010, 10:10 PM) *
I hate elitism, I'd never join a path that is currently or ever has been elitist. I'm just too leet for that nonsense.



Says the man in the KSG.

Posted by: Yeas Feb 24 2010, 12:34 AM

Ever since Spring Robes/Spring garb got ugly, Do style has gone out the window. I blame the new client haha.

Posted by: Iter Feb 24 2010, 04:19 AM

QUOTE (Interstate @ Feb 23 2010, 10:10 PM) *
Elitism and wrong standards.



They are very proud of their super elite humble garbs.... lol


I hate elitism, I'd never join a path that is currently or ever has been elitist. I'm just too leet for that nonsense.



I love it. I get drunk on it. Elite paths are the only paths. Dog paths and dog food are for plebeians.

That said, you might be right about wrong standards. I briefly tried joining the Do some while ago, and was rather frustrated by walkers and guides who didn't roleplay, just assigned me reports/questionnaires. I had a Long spear engraved 'fishing pole,' and it was used only as a fishing pole. It was insisted I never carry it because it was a weapon, despite me roleplaying it was a fishing pole. I think I also had to use Spring garb and not Spring robes, which I had worn up to that point. Rules not roleplay.

An isolated instance, perhaps. Whatever the case, it wasn't for me.

Posted by: IamAmage Feb 24 2010, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (Skum @ Feb 23 2010, 10:41 PM) *
Says the man in the KSG.


Yes, KSG is so elite it costs a whole 4mil for a walk from someone you just met!

Maybe less now

Posted by: Jun Feb 24 2010, 09:25 AM

QUOTE (Snikrot @ Feb 23 2010, 05:32 PM) *
A Do can use a polearm when he/she is able to forge a Do blade.

I am not expert in Do questions but correct me if I am wrong!


Wrong

Posted by: Snikrot Feb 24 2010, 10:36 AM

That's what a Do guide told me a few months ago, apparently it changed eh.

Posted by: Sarphendon Feb 24 2010, 12:35 PM

Do can wear polearms at a certain rank as snikrot said.

Do can wear vortex armors while hunting or in PK areas.

Do can wear vortex weaponry under the same pretense as vortex armor, although we are known to wear them in public if at the same rank as when we can forge a Do blade.

We do wear regular clothing while NOT hunting or battling in arenas, because its ROLEPLAY, why would you wear a full suit of armor, sword and shield, for a trip to the market! its nonsense.

Any other silly myths and rumors I can clear up?

Posted by: Paree Feb 24 2010, 09:18 PM

Pishi is my favourite Do! <3

Posted by: Falaris Feb 24 2010, 09:23 PM

QUOTE (Sarphendon @ Feb 24 2010, 11:35 AM) *
Any other silly myths and rumors I can clear up?


Yes. Why are you guys a cult? Don't deny it. I'm onto you.


-Falaris

Posted by: Alston Feb 24 2010, 09:53 PM

Hey Sarphendon...


Do can Do what?


tongue.gif

All seriousness though, Do are as much an exclusive club as the shadows were. Only difference is Citian actually fought the system. tongue.gif

Posted by: IamAmage Feb 24 2010, 10:26 PM

QUOTE (Alston @ Feb 24 2010, 09:53 PM) *
Hey Sarphendon...
Do can Do what?


How much dough would a do chuck chuck if a do chuck could chuck dough?

Posted by: Alston Feb 24 2010, 11:37 PM

QUOTE (IamAmage @ Feb 24 2010, 07:26 PM) *
How much dough would a do chuck chuck if a do chuck could chuck dough?

do what?

Who's on first?

Okay nuff derailing of the topic. tongue.gif

Posted by: Sarphendon Feb 25 2010, 03:12 AM

QUOTE (Falaris @ Feb 24 2010, 10:23 PM) *
Yes. Why are you guys a cult? Don't deny it. I'm onto you.


-Falaris


PRAISE ZULTAN!

Posted by: Rachel Feb 25 2010, 01:16 PM

QUOTE (Sarphendon @ Feb 24 2010, 11:35 AM) *
why would you wear a full suit of armor, sword and shield, for a trip to the market


To get better deals? smile.gif

Posted by: SilentS Feb 25 2010, 02:20 PM

Intimidation does wonders if presented correctly when negotiating tongue.gif

Posted by: Styledatol Feb 26 2010, 01:09 PM

Besides, maybe I'm RPing some poor sod who's got no home, and is living with what he's got on himself.
I've heard it's easier to become a Do now (easier than it was 6-7 years ago anyway), actually thinking about
trying to get into that exclusive club =/

Posted by: IamAmage Feb 26 2010, 04:15 PM

QUOTE (Styledatol @ Feb 26 2010, 01:09 PM) *
Besides, maybe I'm RPing some poor sod who's got no home, and is living with what he's got on himself.
I've heard it's easier to become a Do now (easier than it was 6-7 years ago anyway), actually thinking about
trying to get into that exclusive club =/


Yeah all I do on my Warrior (and poet for that matter) is duo with the opposite.. and Do's are king of the Duo's. I've been thinking about joining too, when I start back playing that is.

You can't spell Duo without.. u in the middle of a Do!

Yeah I dunno where I was going with that one.. but I'm sure with more thought you could turn that into a better phrase!
Maybe I'm just assuming... but you know what happens when you assume! tongue.gif

Posted by: Brancrese Feb 26 2010, 06:32 PM

Oh how misunderstood the path is. Always has been, always will be. Whenever someone doesn't understand something they immediately seek to call it "weird", "wrong", or "Elitist." Or whatever other word people want to invent to try and categorize something that they just don't get; and usually haven't bothered to try and understand.

The Do Path was the only thing that kept me in Nexus for a very, very long time. Once carnages died, I had nothing else left. Sadly even making Master (which had been a goal of mine for years) wasn't enough to keep me on the sinking ship that is NexusTk.

Shame.

Posted by: Interstate Feb 28 2010, 09:43 AM

QUOTE (Skum @ Feb 23 2010, 10:41 PM) *
Says the man in the KSG.

Never heard of it... besides, I admit to nothing. I'm certainly not by far worse than any Do has ever been?


QUOTE (Brancrese @ Feb 26 2010, 06:32 PM) *
words people invent "weird", "wrong", and "elitist"
carnages died
the sinking ship that is NexusTk.
Shame.

Nice poem Brancrese.

You show true understanding of the Do spirit:
- insulting people
- speaking poorly of people and their creations
- shaming people with less knowledge and understanding than you
- making assumptions wide sweeping assumptions
- flaunting pride
- etc etc

You are a true Do Master.

Of course you're OOC on these boards and your character and its advancement IC should not be judged by your real life abilities. Should your real life patients be a measure of your character's patients anymore than your real life ability to handle a moon blade measure your character's ability to handle a moon blade? Who's to say (other than the OOC enlightened Do, of course).

-shrugs-


It is all still fun and games -- no worries. My apologies if my sense of humor causes you to cause yourself strife. If someone doesn't cut it, it is their own fault for caring what you think and for wanting to walk with you anyways? Especially when they are worthless and not nearly as magnificent as you.

-sigh-


Shame... LOL

I have this problem that results in me getting enjoyment out of throwing rocks at people who throw rocks at people throwing rocks for people throwing rocks.
It is like hating haters for hating,
it is a vicious circle,
and it is good times -
if you don't take it too seriously....

oh, and if you don't throw real rocks lol







Posted by: Sarphendon Feb 28 2010, 11:21 AM

QUOTE (Interstate @ Feb 28 2010, 10:43 AM) *
Never heard of it... besides, I admit to nothing. I'm certainly not by far worse than any Do has ever been?



Nice poem Brancrese.

You show true understanding of the Do spirit:
- insulting people
- speaking poorly of people and their creations
- shaming people with less knowledge and understanding than you
- making assumptions wide sweeping assumptions
- flaunting pride
- etc etc

You are a true Do Master.

Of course you're OOC on these boards and your character and its advancement IC should not be judged by your real life abilities. Should your real life patients be a measure of your character's patients anymore than your real life ability to handle a moon blade measure your character's ability to handle a moon blade? Who's to say (other than the OOC enlightened Do, of course).

-shrugs-


It is all still fun and games -- no worries. My apologies if my sense of humor causes you to cause yourself strife. If someone doesn't cut it, it is their own fault for caring what you think and for wanting to walk with you anyways? Especially when they are worthless and not nearly as magnificent as you.

-sigh-


Shame... LOL

I have this problem that results in me getting enjoyment out of throwing rocks at people who throw rocks at people throwing rocks for people throwing rocks.
It is like hating haters for hating,
it is a vicious circle,
and it is good times -
if you don't take it too seriously....

oh, and if you don't throw real rocks lol


I thought I'd have a wack at this before anyone has reread it 15times to figure out what the devil your trying to say.
First of all, all you've done so far, is insult and belittle the Do path, for what you say they do regularly. Which apprently to you is insult and belittle people for being less then they. Which I've never seen, and I've been around alot of Do, seeing as my main character is one. But maybe that jades me to the light of you wide 3rd partied wisdom.

Second of all, YES I do believe you patiance translate into how your character has patiance in game as well...YOU PLAY YOUR CHARACTER(well some of us do nowadays) But still, you dont need to be proficient irl at wielding a sword to be a Do, dont be daft.

Secondly, Do never feel above anyone, we are a tight nit circle mainly because there arent many of us. And that is becuase comparing our spells to other subpaths, most players choose to be those paths(barrrbs!)

Posted by: Interstate Feb 28 2010, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (Sarphendon @ Feb 28 2010, 11:21 AM) *
I thought I'd have a wack at this before anyone has reread it 15times to figure out what the devil your trying to say.
First of all, all you've done so far, is insult and belittle the Do path, for what you say they do regularly. Which apprently to you is insult and belittle people for being less then they. Which I've never seen, and I've been around alot of Do, seeing as my main character is one. But maybe that jades me to the light of you wide 3rd partied wisdom.

Second of all, YES I do believe you patiance translate into how your character has patiance in game as well...YOU PLAY YOUR CHARACTER(well some of us do nowadays) But still, you dont need to be proficient irl at wielding a sword to be a Do, dont be daft.

Secondly, Do never feel above anyone, we are a tight nit circle mainly because there arent many of us. And that is becuase comparing our spells to other subpaths, most players choose to be those paths(barrrbs!)


I've never been a Do before like I've never been a Spy before.

Truth.

Posted by: MainAttraction Feb 28 2010, 04:57 PM

Well my personal quest to get Do super quickly payed off. LOL.

Do in 3 days. smile.gif

Quota!!!!!!!!!1111111

and I knew no guides and really didn't roleplay, I was just polite/quiet.

God this game is garbage. There is no challenge.

The Do are up to 66 registered users though!

Posted by: IamAmage Feb 28 2010, 06:02 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Feb 28 2010, 04:57 PM) *
Well my personal quest to get Do super quickly payed off. LOL.

Do in 3 days. smile.gif

Quota!!!!!!!!!1111111

and I knew no guides and really didn't roleplay, I was just polite/quiet.

God this game is garbage. There is no challenge.

The Do are up to 66 registered users though!


Quick! Someone give me a reg code so I can join Do while the gettin's good! =P

Posted by: darkmaverick Mar 3 2010, 01:42 PM

For several years the Do were not allowed to use polearms. When you have a long-standing rule like that, where every time someone hunts with a Do and the Do says they aren't allowed to use polearms, people are going to remember it.

The Do path has only itself to blame for any misconceptions. I mean really, now a special rank to use a polearm? That's still nerfing your own members for no reason.

"Oh boy, I want to be a Do. So I can earn the right to use a weapon everyone else in the game can use. Until then, few people will bother to hunt with me. What fun!"

Subpath stuff like this contributes to the death of this game. Nobody wants to deal with this crap when they can play a million other games for free. And the usual attitude of, "We don't need them! We're elite!" will be your undoing as there are fewer and fewer players willing to play Nexus period; let alone even want to join your special snowflake subpath.

Posted by: Sarphendon Mar 5 2010, 11:36 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Mar 3 2010, 02:42 PM) *
For several years the Do were not allowed to use polearms. When you have a long-standing rule like that, where every time someone hunts with a Do and the Do says they aren't allowed to use polearms, people are going to remember it.

The Do path has only itself to blame for any misconceptions. I mean really, now a special rank to use a polearm? That's still nerfing your own members for no reason.

"Oh boy, I want to be a Do. So I can earn the right to use a weapon everyone else in the game can use. Until then, few people will bother to hunt with me. What fun!"

Subpath stuff like this contributes to the death of this game. Nobody wants to deal with this crap when they can play a million other games for free. And the usual attitude of, "We don't need them! We're elite!" will be your undoing as there are fewer and fewer players willing to play Nexus period; let alone even want to join your special snowflake subpath.


I think there is a thread for why you dont play nexus anymore. yay nexus bashing...

Posted by: WereWulf Mar 5 2010, 12:54 PM

QUOTE (Sarphendon @ Mar 5 2010, 11:36 AM) *
I think there is a thread for why you dont play nexus anymore. yay nexus bashing...


Upset because he had a very good point? tongue.gif

Posted by: Sarphendon Mar 5 2010, 03:40 PM

QUOTE
For several years the Do were not allowed to use polearms. When you have a long-standing rule like that, where every time someone hunts with a Do and the Do says they aren't allowed to use polearms, people are going to remember it.

Ignorance is a terrible excuse, and who besides a Do, cares wether or not a Do can use a PA. Well besides DM.

QUOTE
The Do path has only itself to blame for any misconceptions. I mean really, now a special rank to use a polearm? That's still nerfing your own members for no reason.

OOO we've had this rule for YEARS, you'd think it would be hard to forget.

QUOTE
"Oh boy, I want to be a Do. So I can earn the right to use a weapon everyone else in the game can use. Until then, few people will bother to hunt with me. What fun!"

MAN DO I WANNA BE A BARB and exile myself from clans... wait nevermind, Barbs TOTALLY dont do that, because do is the ONLY subpath that gives RP limitations to its walkers. [this is sarcasm incase who ever reads this cant tell]

QUOTE
Subpath stuff like this contributes to the death of this game. Nobody wants to deal with this crap when they can play a million other games for free. And the usual attitude of, "We don't need them! We're elite!" will be your undoing as there are fewer and fewer players willing to play Nexus period; let alone even want to join your special snowflake subpath.


Now this last section is general bashing towards people in paths, I honestly have NEVER while being a Do or before being one, have felt this kind of snub-nosed attitude from ANYONE in the Do...or from any path really. I mean very few isolated cases people think they are great cause of one paths abilities. But its on a bigger scale like "Oh, I'm a mage, therefore I am god"(partially correct). But then again YOU were one of the most hard cased elitest players I've ever seen...even as a CR. You are one of those isolated cases of elitism that you claim is ruining the game.


QUOTE
Upset because he had a very good point?

No, I just thought he was misdirecting his real intent.

Posted by: Falaris Mar 5 2010, 08:37 PM

For the most part, I agree with DM in that I think the Do path has some stupid rules, even if they are steeped in roleplay (like not wearing evil items and such).

But, I also know that the great thing about Nexus is that everyone has paths that they like, and everyone has paths that they dislike, because we're all different and have different personalities. I don't have to like the Do way of doing things, but I'm also sure I would hate every minute if I ever joined the Army. Yet, the Army and its structure are perfect for some people, and maybe the Do path is perfect for some people too. And since I'm not a Do, I don't have much of a say anyway.


-Falaris

Posted by: MainAttraction Mar 5 2010, 08:47 PM

"Ignorance is a terrible excuse, and who besides a Do, cares wether or not a Do can use a PA. Well besides DM. "

Perspective Do-- you know Warriors?

People who hunt with their Do friends out of charity?

Posted by: Sarphendon Mar 5 2010, 10:55 PM

QUOTE (Falaris @ Mar 5 2010, 09:37 PM) *
For the most part, I agree with DM in that I think the Do path has some stupid rules, even if they are steeped in roleplay (like not wearing evil items and such).

But, I also know that the great thing about Nexus is that everyone has paths that they like, and everyone has paths that they dislike, because we're all different and have different personalities. I don't have to like the Do way of doing things, but I'm also sure I would hate every minute if I ever joined the Army. Yet, the Army and its structure are perfect for some people, and maybe the Do path is perfect for some people too. And since I'm not a Do, I don't have much of a say anyway.


-Falaris


I dont know what it is, but when I see your name I want to be arguementative out of sport. But I cant, you've worded it better then anyone.

Posted by: darkmaverick Mar 6 2010, 01:01 AM

I wasn't misdirecting anything.

I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

You can't act like there are baseless "myths and rumors" for the Do not being able to use polearms. It is a fact that when Masana was elder for several years, the Do were not allowed to use polearms. If you dig deeply into NF you might still find some of the old archived posts where Masana explained it was because he felt people were joining the path to use polearms with blend and that was his method of dealing with it. There were some heated debates about it-- and why debates? Again, it makes it difficult for the MEMBERS to enjoy aspects of the game like events. I seem to recall several former Do explaining they always felt like they had to beg for hunts from friends and unlike Chongun / Barb (who had no chance in hell of making use of polearms because of bad game design), the Do had this stipulation because their leadership was personally disinterested in that aspect of the game and could care less how it impacted his own members.

Then, of course, Brancrese comes in and talks about how awesome the Do are and that he left because Nexus is a "sinking ship". Yeah, it probably is. There are a variety of factors for why; imo, a contributing factor is subpaths like the Do who traditionally have been an island unto themselves. You guys are the Scientologists of Nexus. Nexus does not have much going for it and for any subpath to purposely shoo people away with an elitist attitude hurts the community as a whole because without social organizations like subpaths and clans.... well there isn't much else to the game.

Yeah, Do aren't the only ones who have traditionally done it. But this thread isn't about them. It's about the Do.

I recall from past discussions that the Do are this gee golly amazing subpath with so much activity to do everyday and that everyone is a super-happy family. So I ask this; where the hell are all your former Guides and Elders? How come the majority aren't even regged? Did the close-knit family move to another game and in that game do they impose all the Do rules? These are questions I'd like answers to because they prove or disprove all the statements previously made when people raised the issue of the Do path as elitist who nearly got the other subpaths disbanded over staying "true to traditions", once upon a time.

Note that I personally don't care that much about how the Do path is run. I've got no vested interest. I'm trying to think of a good word for what I'm doing here; devil's advocate is close, but not quite right. The point is the reason the "rumors" you dislike exist is because the path has a long history and many people have long memories. You can't mock people for not staying up to date on the esoteric rules of the Do path, especially when they aren't common knowledge due to the eccentric way the Do path is run.

Posted by: Iter Mar 6 2010, 11:33 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Mar 6 2010, 02:01 AM) *
I recall from past discussions that the Do are this gee golly amazing subpath with so much activity to do everyday and that everyone is a super-happy family. So I ask this; where the hell are all your former Guides and Elders? How come the majority aren't even regged? Did the close-knit family move to another game and in that game do they impose all the Do rules? These are questions I'd like answers to because they prove or disprove all the statements previously made when people raised the issue of the Do path as elitist who nearly got the other subpaths disbanded over staying "true to traditions", once upon a time.


To be fair, I think this is the case with most of the subpaths and not particular to the Do.

Posted by: darkmaverick Mar 19 2010, 04:04 AM

Which is why I said, Yeah, Do aren't the only ones who have traditionally done it. But this thread isn't about them. It's about the Do.

Posted by: Sarphendon Mar 20 2010, 07:36 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Mar 19 2010, 06:04 AM) *
Which is why I said, Yeah, Do aren't the only ones who have traditionally done it. But this thread isn't about them. It's about the Do.


regardless of the title, your going to bring in the other two paths. All three warrior paths are very similar, added to the fact that they all have decreasing numbers. So in essence, no, the Do arent going the way of the shadow. Nexus is.

Posted by: darkmaverick Mar 24 2010, 10:29 PM

Actually, both Barbarians and Chonguns embraced the quota. Barbarians more so than anyone else, but then again, they were never an elitist subpath.

How many subpaths had their circles closed for being well below quota and having an Elder tell the GMs to stick it? Only one, and that is Do.

Posted by: Alston Mar 25 2010, 10:46 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Mar 24 2010, 08:29 PM) *
Actually, both Barbarians and Chonguns embraced the quota. Barbarians more so than anyone else, but then again, they were never an elitist subpath.

How many subpaths had their circles closed for being well below quota and having an Elder tell the GMs to stick it? Only one, and that is Do.

wrong. you forgot shadows.

Posted by: MightyNymph Mar 29 2010, 12:23 PM

I am rather disheartened that many misconceptions about our path have been so rampant. Elitist is a word that is not fitting for our path, but I think I know why people assume that elitism is the case.

Much of what masters expect from a Seeker of the Do cannot be taught. It needs to be inherent in a warrior's personality and world outlook. Although these things cannot be taught, they can be learned. As far as the quota/adding new members goes, we see tons of intelligent warriors seek the way, but who have not absolved their egos with nothingness. So, do you train someone whos deepest and truest self cannot reflect the teachings we endorse? Can you mold bronze into marble? (I wish.)

A true Do might consider himself lesser or inferior to others. He always overestimates a stranger. He does not consider himself better than any human being, but equal as a living organism with the same basic needs, and focused entirely on where one can grow as a combatant and a person. Now.. where is the elitism?

I theorize that some of the debate here was inspired by people in the Dojang who have lead their lives in a way that does not reflect our values, and for that I apologize. But I would sincerely request that generalizations not be made about all the members of our path by way of a handful of bad examples. Our teachings and traditions are rich, and amount to more than what discredit a few bad apples can serve.

Posted by: Alston Mar 29 2010, 12:54 PM

QUOTE (MightyNymph @ Mar 29 2010, 10:23 AM) *
I am rather disheartened that many misconceptions about our path have been so rampant. Elitist is a word that is not fitting for our path, but I think I know why people assume that elitism is the case.

Much of what masters expect from a Seeker of the Do cannot be taught. It needs to be inherent in a warrior's personality and world outlook. Although these things cannot be taught, they can be learned. As far as the quota/adding new members goes, we see tons of intelligent warriors seek the way, but who have not absolved their egos with nothingness. So, do you train someone whos deepest and truest self cannot reflect the teachings we endorse? Can you mold bronze into marble? (I wish.)

A true Do might consider himself lesser or inferior to others. He always overestimates a stranger. He does not consider himself better than any human being, but equal as a living organism with the same basic needs, and focused entirely on where one can grow as a combatant and a person. Now.. where is the elitism?

I theorize that some of the debate here was inspired by people in the Dojang who have lead their lives in a way that does not reflect our values, and for that I apologize. But I would sincerely request that generalizations not be made about all the members of our path by way of a handful of bad examples. Our teachings and traditions are rich, and amount to more than what discredit a few bad apples can serve.

1. Are you attempting to RP on an out-of-game bulletin board? You're starting to sound like Interstate.

2. Wasn't caused by, or perpetuated from, a Do. Just a bunch of us loud-mouthed disgruntled players (both ex- and current) voicing our opinions on the political ramnificiations of the quota system and the lack of abundance of Do sightings.

3. Aren't Do supposed to not care what other people say about them? tongue.gif

Posted by: MightyNymph Mar 29 2010, 12:58 PM

QUOTE (Alston @ Mar 29 2010, 01:54 PM) *
1. Are you attempting to RP on an out-of-game bulletin board? You're starting to sound like Interstate.

2. Wasn't caused by, or perpetuated from, a Do. Just a bunch of us loud-mouthed disgruntled players (both ex- and current) voicing our opinions on the political ramnificiations of the quota system and the lack of abundance of Do sightings.

3. Aren't Do supposed to not care what other people say about them? tongue.gif


1: No, no. It's just how I talk. Or type, rather.

3: Nope, I care very much what people say about me. That's the track to improvement. =)

Posted by: Alston Mar 29 2010, 01:17 PM

QUOTE (MightyNymph @ Mar 29 2010, 10:58 AM) *
1: No, no. It's just how I talk. Or type, rather.

3: Nope, I care very much what people say about me. That's the track to improvement. =)

I meant general, nonsensical rambling, not insightful and constructive criticism.

And you know 99% of commentary, both here and in the real world, is usually of the former. tongue.gif

Posted by: darkmaverick Mar 30 2010, 08:15 AM

QUOTE (Alston @ Mar 25 2010, 10:46 AM) *
wrong. you forgot shadows.


Uh, no. Shadows disbanded themselves (or rather their leadership kicked everyone out who wouldn't abandon the path). They didn't have their circle taken away as punishment.

Also....
QUOTE (MightyNymph @ Mar 29 2010, 12:23 PM) *
Much of what masters expect from a Seeker of the Do cannot be taught. It needs to be inherent in a warrior's personality and world outlook. Although these things cannot be taught, they can be learned. As far as the quota/adding new members goes, we see tons of intelligent warriors seek the way, but who have not absolved their egos with nothingness. So, do you train someone whos deepest and truest self cannot reflect the teachings we endorse? Can you mold bronze into marble? (I wish.)

QUOTE (Alston @ Mar 29 2010, 12:54 PM) *
1. Are you attempting to RP on an out-of-game bulletin board?

QUOTE (MightyNymph @ Mar 29 2010, 12:58 PM) *
1: No, no. It's just how I talk. Or type, rather.


..and people wonder why the Do are sometimes called a cult.

The Do aren't looking for roleplayers. They are looking for converts.

Look, I'm well versed in Taoism, Buddhism, Shinto and I've probably read every major budo text to come out of Japan. You're not gonna fully convert anyone to that way of life through a MMORPG, and to even use a videogame to propagate that kind of pseudo-religion is just ridiculous. To say, "You can't join our ROLEPLAYING GROUP because you don't live and breath the Do way of life" is as absurd as saying someone can't join the Spy subpath unless they go out and assassinate a senator IRL.

Do you even realize that, when you really get down to it, the philosophy you deem so important was created so that men would throw down their lives to kill anyone--even themselves-- if their master wanted them to? That most Eastern "monks" were in truth mercenary bands for the local tribal chieftains? It was never this grand "enlightenment" thing that modern films and books have made it out to be, where people meditated all day and trained in weaponry without the intent to ever actually use those skills. It was about surviving in a harsh world of slavery caste systems and death around every corner. And rather than rewarding them with a paradise like in Christianity, they get to break free from reincarnation. Fundamentally, they both serve to convince people to not care about how miserable they are while they are alive, which is important when you're trying to manipulate masses of hungry, sick and scared people.

It's not a philosophy that modern people should be subscribing to the letter because it defeats the entire point of civilization getting to this stage where people can actually decide their own damn destinies and enjoy their lives.

Posted by: Alston Mar 30 2010, 08:40 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Mar 30 2010, 06:15 AM) *
Uh, no. Shadows disbanded themselves (or rather their leadership kicked everyone out who wouldn't abandon the path). They didn't have their circle taken away as punishment.

Good point. However, they were threatened with disbandment for not keeping up with quota, and decided to throw nexon (now known as Kru) a big middle finger.

Posted by: darkmaverick Mar 30 2010, 08:50 AM

I'm not sure if that was how it went down. I recall that the Shadow leaders didn't want to change their ways to conform to the quota and didn't even spend more than a month or two trying to meet it.

I mean, everyone was told what the penalty was for refusing quota, but it wasn't really enforced for over a year (it was basically not getting their round requests, which was not enforced because most paths didn't get their rounds even if they had met quota--this is mainly why the Do got away with it for so long, their leadership didn't care about new stuff, for the most part, and they got round requests anyway). If I recall correctly, the Shadow leaders gave a half-hearted attempt while a few dedicated Walkers tried to recruit people (I recall LogicalPO being one of them). But instead their leadership decided to kill their own path to preserve....I honestly don't know what, they had a terribly inconsistent RP that shifted with every new Elder.

But anyway, in their effort to preserve what they thought they had, they instead destroyed it. Hardly anyone remembers they even existed.

Posted by: Alston Mar 30 2010, 08:53 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Mar 30 2010, 06:50 AM) *
Hardly anyone remembers they even existed.

Perhaps that was the whole point. They were shadows, after all. tongue.gif

Posted by: Kensi Mar 30 2010, 11:47 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Mar 30 2010, 08:15 AM) *
....You're not gonna fully convert anyone to that way of life through a MMORPG, and to even use a videogame to propagate that kind of pseudo-religion is just ridiculous....It was never this grand "enlightenment" thing that modern films and books have made it out to be, where people meditated all day and trained in weaponry without the intent to ever actually use those skills....


Enlightenment, as least as I came to understand it through the path, isn't something that just comes - it's about living your life day by day and being receptive to the enlightening lessons that can be found anywhere in your life. There is not, as Brenden Bayliss sings, any "seething insight." But being actively aware of these lessons, well, in the Do Circle we call that "Seeking." And every once of us Seeks, it's the core of our identity.

I believe it's less about "converting" someone and more about showing that person a Way, and letting them discover the lessons of their own life for themselves if, when and how they want. Every one of us walks our metaphorical path differently, and we come to learn different things based on how we look at things. It's a situation where it's more about the race rather than the finish, about viewing life in certain ways, and thirstily seeking the knowledge that can come from it all. Anyone can do that, and we often come to understandings unconsciously - Do just place value on the conscious effort to try to find and glean what we can from these understandings.

In short, we believe in the "aha!" moments. smile.gif

Posted by: Falaris Mar 30 2010, 01:39 PM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Mar 30 2010, 11:47 AM) *
Enlightenment, as least as I came to understand it through the path, isn't something that just comes - it's about living your life day by day and being receptive to the enlightening lessons that can be found anywhere in your life. There is not, as Brenden Bayliss sings, any "seething insight." But being actively aware of these lessons, well, in the Do Circle we call that "Seeking." And every once of us Seeks, it's the core of our identity.

I believe it's less about "converting" someone and more about showing that person a Way, and letting them discover the lessons of their own life for themselves if, when and how they want. Every one of us walks our metaphorical path differently, and we come to learn different things based on how we look at things. It's a situation where it's more about the race rather than the finish, about viewing life in certain ways, and thirstily seeking the knowledge that can come from it all. Anyone can do that, and we often come to understandings unconsciously - Do just place value on the conscious effort to try to find and glean what we can from these understandings.

In short, we believe in the "aha!" moments. smile.gif


I love this outlook on life and generally live this way, but I don't think I'd fit in a Do-shaped box.


-Falaris

Posted by: Alston Mar 31 2010, 09:21 AM

QUOTE (Falaris @ Mar 30 2010, 11:39 AM) *
I love this outlook on life and generally live this way, but I don't think I'd fit in a Do-shaped box.


-Falaris

What, sir, is a Do-shaped box shaped like?

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 3 2010, 11:11 AM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Mar 30 2010, 11:47 AM) *
I believe it's less about "converting" someone and more about showing that person a Way, and letting them discover the lessons of their own life for themselves if, when and how they want. Every one of us walks our metaphorical path differently, and we come to learn different things based on how we look at things. It's a situation where it's more about the race rather than the finish, about viewing life in certain ways, and thirstily seeking the knowledge that can come from it all. Anyone can do that, and we often come to understandings unconsciously - Do just place value on the conscious effort to try to find and glean what we can from these understandings.


If that was the case then the Do would accept everyone.

As for enlightenment, Buddhism is a philosophy / psuedo-religion created during a time of extraordinary suffering for people struggling in a caste system. Nirvana-- a spiritual state obtained by desiring nothing (for all suffering, in the mind of a Buddhist, stems from desiring something you cannot have)-- is a coping mechanism for dealing with the inability to change one's destiny-- the idea being, rather than change your destiny (which would require violent revolution and has great risk), change how you look at your destiny.

Rather than be upset because you can't have nice things, just don't desire nice things. That is Buddhism (and to an extent, Taosim, although only on the surface since it is a clever system designed to trick people into understanding human nature) in a nutshell.

Now, this philosophy has little place in a democratic world where people can actually determine their own path in life. I actually think it is rather destructive to the future of our species, for without the desire to improve the world there can be no improvement. I also believe it is impossible to deny all desires and that all desires are not bad. But again, this philosophical viewpoint was created during a time when most people had no control over their destinies, so it is easy to understand what use it had and why it became popular. But it is archaic and of little value today for anything more than a stepping stone to understanding how humans think. But most people don't use it that way. They use it as a religion and as a religion it holds them back from seeing the world as it is.

Posted by: Kensi Apr 3 2010, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 3 2010, 11:11 AM) *
If that was the case then the Do would accept everyone....


We do accept everyone. If you've been in the Dojong, you would definitely understand this, rolleyes.gif. Anyone is more than capable of being Do, and we hold no one back other than what they hold themselves.

As far as Buddhism, Taoism, Blahblahblahism, it doesn't matter. If your Way includes one or many of these ideals then so much the better, whatever works for you. If it doesn't, that's okay too. I think people are focusing too much on the fractions in trying to understand the Do: we're not that complicated, and we can't be pinned down by any one, or set of dogmatic beliefs. I've got Buddhist tendencies, I've got Taoist tendencies, I've got Gangster tendencies, but if you had to ask me, I subscribe to 100% Kensi'ism. tongue.gif

When all the stains have settled, no one can neither break down anyone in so far as which beliefs are "valid" for their path, nor can they stuff anyone else into a Do-shaped box (a wonderful idea). You made some wonderful points as to the validity of some Buddhist doctrines, and if they help you cope with things, great. We have a few things in common with some of these philosophical ideals, but by no means are we (as a collective group) adherents to any one or all of them. As we all believe in a couple of core values, it's ultimately ours as individuals to express them how we choose.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 4 2010, 08:56 AM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Apr 3 2010, 01:11 PM) *
We do accept everyone. If you've been in the Dojong, you would definitely understand this, rolleyes.gif. Anyone is more than capable of being Do, and we hold no one back other than what they hold themselves.


You're contradicting yourself.

You can't say "we accept everyone" but then say "we hold no one back other than what they hold themselves". That last sentence of yours is the "catch".

The summary is you accept everyone who conforms to the Do way. Which is the subpath's right and there's no debating that. What is debatable is whether the requirements demand something well above roleplaying and the expected good member conduct is appropriate given this is a videogame.

For example, banning members from using the most useful items in the game and demanding they conform to psuedo-religions worldviews. This is not roleplaying because role playing by its very nature is playing; it's fake and not real.

It's one thing to learn bushido in order to join a samurai roleplaying group. It's another to demand someone practice bushido in their daily lives and brutally punish them for any deviation, or even withhold membership if they do not 100% conform to it. It's a freakin game!

This is a problem in more paths than just the Do; they have become real secret societies, rather than the pseudo-secret societies they were intended to be.

We have people who believe they are real Shamans, and people who believe they are real Geos, Diviners, Monks, Druids, what-have-you.

I mean sure, I wrote a lot of material for the Chonguns and I personally believe in much of what I wrote, but I'm not going to expect anyone to literally believe every single word in the core of their being. Much of it was adapted from real budo philosophies and they are rather harsh philosophies for those who are not soldiers. Expect them to try, but it is really absurd to expect gamers to always have that kind of devotion.

I also would not expect them to, at all times they are logged in, to be roleplaying because that is an absurd request in a game like Nexus where the overwhelming majority of players do not RP.

Posted by: Alston Apr 4 2010, 09:40 AM

DM calm down, it's just a game.

(starting to get deja vu here)

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 4 2010, 08:36 PM

Having a Geomancer and currently a pup for the Barbarians, I can understand completely what DM is saying. There are always going to be extremes in any of the subpaths though. This being said, whenever the path has majority of people who believe in the extreme it ruins the fun of the people who are interested only moderately. The Do are no exception to this and I think the fact that it is a warrior subpath also hurts their views.

People do not want to wait 6+ months just to get into a subpath so they can hunt. Hell, the 4 months I spent getting noticed and being trained by the Barbarians already set me back by a lot. I could have definitely gotten Il San and would probably be close, if not already, Ee San. This is exactly why Kru should make Rage and Cunning 99 Warrior/Rogue spells and not subpath spells. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Posted by: Musoyan Apr 5 2010, 09:26 AM

This is why I stopped playing my warrior and just sold all of her belongings. There is nothing worse then being made to wait months just get "noticed" by these subpaths. No one wants to have to wait months with no rage or cunning and not be able to hunt just to try to get in a subpath. I got fed up after I missed so many hunting experiences, a wisdom star and more. Make me wait a few weeks to get noticed -- fine. But DON'T make me wait months.

Posted by: Twerky Apr 5 2010, 10:40 AM


In terms of Do, it usually is not that long of a wait to have a master agree to train you. With other subpaths, like the recently mentioned Barbarian, it seems the wait for certain people can be drastically different.

I've known of some to wait close to half a year to be noticed and walk. But for some it seems to take them as little as two months.

Either way, I don't understand the complaints about waiting. If you're interested in a path I don't understand how the wait to be noticed could be so awful. If anything I'll say, if you want to hunt - hunt if it's your largest priority. If you want to be in a subpath with little wait, join Chongun as that's the route some past seekers and pups tend to go.

If you want to focus on getting stronger than do so. There's nothing stopping anyone from joining a subpath once they're reached their desired mark.

Posted by: SilentS Apr 5 2010, 11:29 AM

QUOTE (Musoyan @ Apr 5 2010, 08:26 AM) *
There is nothing worse then being made to wait months just get "noticed" by these subpaths.

This is actually illegal and all paths have been ordered to stop doing this quite some time ago. Unless there is a specific reason a path will not train you (and it has to be a good one), no path can deny you training to enter, nor can they make you wait months to even get "noticed" to start training.

Posted by: MainAttraction Apr 5 2010, 01:38 PM

^ but it's not illegal to "train" people for months.

That is whats wrong with Nexus subpaths, ultimatley "waiting" has been ingrained into everything. And I am not even talking about realistic waiting periods you expect when dealing with people, I am talking about the ritual of waiting that some idiot created and now most people use.


- "I have read your story, but now you must wait a few days while I consider your fate" - Diviner Guide
Waiting to even know if you can start training

- "You have done well! You have a rich past young one, or should I say, Prince? HUZZAH, expect my sparrow to find you in the next few days" - Ranger Guide
Built in waiting period for copy and paste assignments etc

It's non-sensical to make people wait (and thats mostly what they are doing, because when you condense down all the nmail tests etc, standing next to a gudie afk at a community event etc, you're generally looking at what? Maybe 5 hours tops? Especially if you know how to BS.


If you don't believe waiting is a problem, look at the language used by higher ups in subpaths, then look at the commotion it causes when someone starts their training and gets walked in less then a week. Corruption, usually on the lips of many.



Also what is the point of making a warrior or rogue leave an NPC subpath? You can give that RP bull[Content removed], "they are showing their dedication" but ultimatley isn't their training the thing that shows dedication? To take an arguement out of DM's bag of goodies, it just seems like a lot of the higher ups in war/ro subpaths figured they had to pay for all the years they had without rage/cunning and are making those other people pay. What's even funnier is how subpaths like the chongun require you to be without a path even before you send in your app, so you had to gamble 1bil exp just to test the waters to see if a guide/guides liked your style. 1bil is nothing to laugh at, that can take pre-ilsan fighters ages to get.

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 5 2010, 02:04 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 5 2010, 02:38 PM) *
1bil exp just to test the waters to see if a guide/guides liked your style. 1bil is nothing to laugh at, that can take pre-ilsan fighters ages to get.


While I did my waiting inbetween tests and assignments I hunted solo because I couldn't get a hunting group (I was actually denied an Ox1 group for not having rage.) and it took me 2 weeks just to get 1bil exp.


I had a good experience with my Geomancer training. Took me 2 weeks total after being accepted for training to be walked. Everyone was very impressed with my turn-ins and stories. So now the question of if the person shows that they are more than ready for the path should you walk them early or do you make them wait the huge times that the slowest of the students wait?

Posted by: Dritz Apr 5 2010, 03:08 PM

The approach I have always taken to training is to make people wait as little as possible*. I also pay no attention to whether someone is 'ready' to begin training when they come to me. I'll never outright deny someone but if they are more suited for another subpath I'll spend a bit of time convincing them that maybe they should pursue something more suitable for them.

It seems to me that making people wait is just a sign of lazyness on the guide's part. I'll be controversial here and say that if your subpath includes a stipulation in it's role-play that you must be born X or inherently know X before beginning training, your role-play is broken. A guide is just that, a guide. You don't guide or train someone that is already X.

* Just a note to anyone who may pursue me as a guide (Chongun - PyroAce) the wait time between trials is not long, but my trials themselves are. So don't misunderstand me tongue.gif.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 5 2010, 05:47 PM

The only time you should be required to leave an NPC path is because you're about to be admitted to the PC path.

This should be especially true for Warriors and Rogues since their gameplay now revolves entirely around Rage and Cunning. Unless they have the raw stats to 1 hit monsters with all their vita attacks, asking them to give those spells up is basically asking them to stop all PvE activities in a game that is almost entirely PvE content.

You are expected to give up hunting, which is a task you can do for several hours a day, to instead get some assignment which might take less than an hour to achieve and you only receive once every so many days? I've never understood what that was supposed to demonstrate other than the individual isn't a big hunter and just likes to hang out and talk to people at East gate Kugnea / Sire pit.

If the role of a guide is to teach roleplaying, 99% of all "trials" are pointless because they have nothing to do with roleplaying. They are designed for weeding out the player, not their character and they only serve to try and frustrate people, because if someone becomes frustrated then they must be a problem. But in reality everyone is frustrated by this crap, and what the systems do is teach people to lie about their frustrations, because if you dare to say, "Hey, this is kind of stupid" you won't get in-- even if, you know, you happen to be a prior Guide who helped create some of the original versions of these trials and knows they weren't supposed to be used to "weed" people out, but to actually train people who know nothing about the path AND have fun while doing so.

Never in my life would I have even thought to ask a walker to count a hundred something \ marks in an nmail or carry an acorn one step at a time up the vale mountain. I think the most challenging thing I ever asked anyone to do was duel me in the arena or maybe run through Grim ogres to the last room WITH ME spamming fleshspeak on them along the way-- and that was all part of the strategy training, and there really wasn't any way to fail. It was just an experience.

I also don't believe expecting people to lie about their experiences is the best thing to be teaching people to do in order to get into a subpath. If they aren't having fun the "trials" are worthless. It may be a privilege to join a path but it is also a privilege for a path to gain good members who want to be there because they don't have to be trying to join your path-- they could have tried to be any path, even no path. Turning good people away who want to be there is like shooting yourself in the foot.

The concept of "weeding" potentially troublesome people out by demanding a lot of people is most stupid because it simply doesn't work. The number of people who have passed all those trials and then, when they finally got Elder, showed their true colors and went postal on their paths is proof of that. The only people these systems weed out are the people who just want to have fun and those are the people who ought to be in subpaths. Not the people who view them as secret societies worthy of political conquering and using to fulfill whatever RL insecurities they have.

Posted by: MainAttraction Apr 5 2010, 09:59 PM

Agree with everything except.

"The number of people who have passed all those trials and then, when they finally got Elder, showed their true colors and went postal on their paths is proof of that."

lol, some elders might have done some crazy crap, but I know of atleast one who tried to eliminate exactly what you were discussing in the rest of your post, and then when that didn't work due to the fact this is a widespread problem thats deeply entrenched, they went postal. lol.

Posted by: SilentS Apr 6 2010, 06:50 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 5 2010, 12:38 PM) *
^ but it's not illegal to "train" people for months.
Actually, it is. Specific paths have been told out right to cut back on their trainings so that it does not take ages to get into the paths. Granted it may be required for some people (case by case with proof), but in general the orders from above were to get things going in a more timely manor. And to stop the "elite clubs" that some subpaths have been in the past.


QUOTE
Also what is the point of making a warrior or rogue leave an NPC subpath? You can give that RP bull[Content removed], "they are showing their dedication" but ultimatley isn't their training the thing that shows dedication? To take an arguement out of DM's bag of goodies, it just seems like a lot of the higher ups in war/ro subpaths figured they had to pay for all the years they had without rage/cunning and are making those other people pay. What's even funnier is how subpaths like the chongun require you to be without a path even before you send in your app, so you had to gamble 1bil exp just to test the waters to see if a guide/guides liked your style. 1bil is nothing to laugh at, that can take pre-ilsan fighters ages to get.

In the end it comes down to if the hopeful really wants into the path or it is just a passing moment for them. More than once people have wasted our time in trying to train and not giving a rats ass about it. So in part that rule came about (and yes, I did push on it) to attempt to cut back on those people. For the most part it did work. Sure it puts the person at a disadvantage hunting wise, but it does show (in theory) where their real interest is. It has nothing to do on how hard it was on those of us in the past (but you do have to admit things are way easier now compared to then), that is just a convenient excuse.

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 7 2010, 01:50 AM

Pies are delicious

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 7 2010, 12:20 PM

I don't get a kick out of it. It makes me sad. It's part of the reason I wish Elders were removed from the game and Guides were free to make their own "sects", with whatever rules and standards and roleplay they wanted to teach their Walkers. Then the cream would rise to the top, rather than drown below the surface mold.

QUOTE (SilentS @ Apr 6 2010, 06:50 PM) *
In the end it comes down to if the hopeful really wants into the path or it is just a passing moment for them. More than once people have wasted our time in trying to train and not giving a rats ass about it. So in part that rule came about (and yes, I did push on it) to attempt to cut back on those people. For the most part it did work. Sure it puts the person at a disadvantage hunting wise, but it does show (in theory) where their real interest is. It has nothing to do on how hard it was on those of us in the past (but you do have to admit things are way easier now compared to then), that is just a convenient excuse.


I think whether these tactics show a player's true interest or not is highly, highly debatable.

I would also argue that the importance of ensuring people are going to join the path for life is much less important than it was when I was a Guide with a limited number of Walker slots (I think it was like 12?) and the karma cost to add Walkers was significant.

I honestly do not see the harm of adding someone to a path and training them from within the path, where they can actually get a feel for what kind of community they are joining.

I mean really, what damage can a Walker really do? Look at their privileges.

-Spells (Barbarian push is the only spell I can think of that has any abuse potential)

-Items (they can only be worn by subpath members and most of their stats suck, so why should anyone care?)

-Board (so they can read the subpath board, so what? Many Guides share the contents of the boards with their friends and let's not pretend otherwise-- I'm pretty sure the Spy subpath is nearly devoted to spying on everyone else, so nothing posted to any board should ever be considered secret)

-Reputation (Every subpath has been involved in hundreds of scandals, many of which involve Guides and Elders. Hell, some subpaths have a history of nothing but scandal after scandal. Some noob Walker who makes an ass of himself isn't going to bring down the whole subpath).

Any sane individual that looks at these "weeding out" policies can see they are not only ineffective; they aren't even necessary. A Walker cannot bring down a subpath with deviant behavior-- only Guides and Elders have enough power to do that.


I mean, this isn't boot camp where Drill Sgts need to take a civilian (who may have never in their life hurt a fly) and break them down mentally so they can be rebuilt into a soldier who will obey orders in life or death situations.

I also think the, "Well that is how it was when I joined!" argument is made by Elders and Guides more often than you are suggesting. There are many who believe that because they had to do something in order to join a path, everyone should have to as well. Once they have obtained what they wanted, they stop thinking about whether or not what was asked of them was acceptable to begin with.

I also think subpaths were a hell of a lot more interesting before they all decided to become "psuedo-families" rather than organizations.

Posted by: Foxfire Apr 7 2010, 12:33 PM

I resent being called surface mold!

But I'm thanking Supply wholeheartedly for eliminating most of these issues in druid. laugh.gif

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 7 2010, 12:44 PM

I don't know if you're the kind of Elder I'm thinking of.

The kind I'm thinking of is the Elder who has lost their hunger to do great things that will bring enjoyment to not only their path but the community. The person who has a million arguments against the new ideas of others while possessing no new ideas of their own. Or worse, the person who is more than happy to take the credit for the work those below them do while doing little themselves besides stamping their approval.

Posted by: Twerky Apr 7 2010, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (Aeriath @ Apr 6 2010, 11:50 PM) *
I thought everyone would get a kick out of this. I finished my Barbarian training and was told that my interview before I was walked would be done by Winder. I thought "Alright, so at the latest the next day!". This was last Friday I believe. I am on all the time so even if I am not actually at my computer I can still be contacted. Even if I wasn't online there is still n-mail. I saw Winder on today for at the most 2 minutes and he didn't contact me. I didn't bother him with whispers out of respect, but I think I should have.

There is no reason for this kind of wait just so a specific person can do the interview. XItachiX can do it and he is on all the time. I believe that any guide could do it as well. I even contacted Itachi about it and was told to tell my Guide to contact Winder. My guide is on only slightly more than Winder and he hasn't mentioned anything about it.

I just thought that everyone would enjoy that since we were talking about this very thing.


You ought to realize that certain guides have certain responsibilities. Maybe Winder didn't have the time available to interview you. And what I know of Barbarians they typically have more than one guide interview a pup before they're walked. So maybe enough guides weren't available at the time.

I know of you Aeriath and compared to other pups or Barbarians that I've recently known to be walked you're greatly exaggerating the amount of time your training has taken. I think you ought to follow others example and have a bit more patience.

I, for one, don't get much of a kick out of someone being a tad ungrateful when someone took the time to train them in the first place.


Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 7 2010, 01:19 PM

QUOTE (Twerky @ Apr 7 2010, 01:11 PM) *
I, for one, don't get much of a kick out of someone being a tad ungrateful when someone took the time to train them in the first place.


Oh, please. Asking a newb 99 Warrior to treat the GAME as a chat room until someone gets around to adding them to the path so they can learn rage so they can hunt and/or find a group for whatever event is going on, is a ridiculous request. There is a limit to a person's patience when you're asked to stop playing the game until you can join a social group. If there is one thing I am most critical of mug for doing it is for making the new rages subpath only, rather than just making CR rage a warrior spell. The 2nd is that he hasn't put his foot down on Warrior subpaths demanding aspirants to lose Rage long before they will join the subpath.

It is such an easy thing to fix. All he has to do is change the class flags for the CR spells to make them equal "Warrior" and give CRs some totem animal morph spell so they still have something "unique". He could probably do it within an hour. Or he could just tell the Elders to stop being asses.

And yes, Warrior Elders, you're an ass if you believe you have the right to ask someone to self-nerf themselves. Unless your gee jolly amazing "training" can replace the fun of hunting or compensate someone for being unable to enjoy a seasonal event, you shouldn't be asking someone to twiddle their thumbs until you get around to giving them a membership card. And I severely doubt there is so much roleplaying activities to do in Nexus that there is never any filler time that someone doesn't thinks, "I'm bored, I should find a hunt" or "I totally don't want to try to get that rare, once-in-a-life-time event item!"

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 7 2010, 02:09 PM

Pies are still delicious

Posted by: oogabooga Apr 7 2010, 02:39 PM

KOFighter waited 6 months not being trained then he had he had a couple more months during training. Maybe you should shut your mouth and stop being so ungrateful.

Posted by: Musoyan Apr 7 2010, 02:42 PM

QUOTE (oogabooga @ Apr 7 2010, 03:39 PM) *
KOFighter waited 6 months not being trained then he had he had a couple more months during training. Maybe you should shut your mouth and stop being so ungrateful.


So are you saying that it was acceptable what they did to him?

Posted by: Dritz Apr 7 2010, 02:53 PM

A person should not be grateful for being trained or accepted into a subpath. Guides don't like to hear this but like it or not it is peoples right to be given a fair chance at entering a subpath and yes that includes some actual effort in getting things done.

You might want to tone it down a bit though Aeriath. Though you defiantly have a reasonable position, I would hate to see someone throw a lot of their work away over Nexus Forums. Another sad fact is that criticisms such as these could be used against you in game.

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 7 2010, 02:58 PM

http://www.nexusforums.com/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

Posted by: WereWulf Apr 7 2010, 03:18 PM

I am waiting for the post about how the "higher ups" decided because of Nexus Forums they cannot admit you. Its a load of [Content removed] but the "ungrateful" train is never late tongue.gif Psh.. now that I gave it away they will probably have you wait another 6 months for the test so they can say you decided to quit on your own.


DM is clearly right in this argument. I'm sorry SilentS I do think you are a great elder but some of your rules do not work. When I was getting SamuraiHanzo into Chongun I was 100% eager and ready to join, but after 4 months of school and chongun training I was ready to unregister. Nexus should be my escape from work/school not more of it.

Sorry for edit but I thought I should add. My school did limit my play time, I will agree to that, but it still should not have taken 4 months to become a Chongun. All my answers were to the letter, and for some reason a good week of my training was spent meeting with Do guides trying to see if I was meant for their path... which still boggles my mind tongue.gif

Posted by: SilentS Apr 7 2010, 03:21 PM

QUOTE (Aeriath @ Apr 7 2010, 01:58 PM) *
People just have to understand that I am not making this discussion personal. I am just using my experiences to prove our point.

While that maybe so, the opposite is also true. People just have to understand (taking your words) what the guides and elders are faced with and go through every day. Granted some take it to the extreme and go overboard, but the reasonings are there as well. There are always more than one side to a story or situation.

Posted by: oogabooga Apr 7 2010, 03:22 PM

While it does suck that training can take that long it shows dedication. He proved to be a better Barbarian than other people that were walked in less than 2 months. He didn't complain like Aeriath does and she will probably become a useless Barbarian.

Posted by: Musoyan Apr 7 2010, 03:26 PM

If you aren't going to bring anything to the discussion other than insults then go post somewhere else.

However, Aeriath, I WOULD refrain from saying any more on the issue. Elders and guides can try to find a way to not allow you to be admitted in to the subpath even based on whats written on here. Sad but it has happened before. sad.gif

Posted by: MainAttraction Apr 7 2010, 04:47 PM

The problem with all of this is that it's an ingrained problem. And it's too difficult to change unless Kru becomes more readily involved (and really they should be). DM's idea regarding eliminating the elder position or atleast taking control of it is a great idea. Theres no need for that type of power anymore (it's not important or worthwhile for the player as it was early on when there was less gm interferance).


From a players perspective though, and I put a lot of thought into this 2 years ago.


What you essentially have to do to change this problem is get an entirely new guide circle (not tainted or biased by the old ways) and build up the system from the ground up or have fully open minded guides (like pyroace for example). It's then when you establish a system that makes sense in this current gameworld and real life world that will ultmatley make your game and path thrive. You might argue that theres no need to eliminate the in place guides (most of them like say SilentS are nice people) but the problem is, with them, theres too much red tape to cross-- most of them are stuck in their ways and like things exactly how they are and you spend too much time arguing or debating rather than fixing (how they percieve things were. New guides, or atleast "willing" guides speed up the process and allow for things to get rolling immediatly. You have to gamble your beliefs against theres and hope you win.

Theres no need for a training period to be more than 1-2 weeks tops (a player should be able to register and experience a subpath within the 1 month they try out the game), and theres no reason why a roleplay bs response can't be made up to allow NPC players to pursue training as they are, the only time they should have to leave is when they are going to abandon to join the subpath of their choice, theres no reason to have 90% of the quests used for subpath training most of its busy work that has no real value, theres no reason to have time limits long durational stupid quests to gain path items etc (that essentially suck and have no real effect on the game mechanics etc) theres no reason for any of that patience bull[Content removed] in nexus. It's lazy, it's boring, it's a time waster.

What's ironic is that if I had a bit more patience (that or went full-tyrant right from the start and walked all my pk friends) I think I could have seriously made a dent in this issue, at least for 1 subpath but I still think its the whirlwind fast change that will be the only way something like this works, its just whomever does it, will have to have enough like minded support, something I didn't have.

Posted by: Winder Apr 7 2010, 05:48 PM

Wow. Talk about a bad choice of words and actions.

If you just whisper me or mail me (which you finally did) you'll get a response quickly (which you did). I'm not your mom. I'm not going to run around looking for you or remind you to do your work. You are responsible for approaching me. You are responsible for getting your tasks done.

Posted by: Dritz Apr 7 2010, 05:56 PM

The idea that scorched earth is required for any big change is ludicrous at best. People are hesitant to change, yes. People in power are even more so. People are open to new ideas as long as they are provided an opportunity to shape them. In the end something like 'get rid of the elder' is from my perspective a rather silly (strong language I know) suggestion.

Organizations should always look for ways to decentralize power and responsibilities. This allows any one area to receive the utmost focus from a person or a group of people. Someone who has to much to do will tend to prioritize based on their opinions rather than organizational goals. Of course there is the ever present accusations of corruption which could also be stifled by decentralizing.

That all being said there has got to be connections between different centres. If George is in charge of a dark role-playing group within the Painters subpath he still needs to interact with Sally who deals with the lime green rp group in the Painters subpath. Both will certainly need to talk with Bob who handles complaints about walkers in the Painters subpath. Once you have connections between people like that, it is usually most efficient to have someone one rung up who coordinates those people along with some other responsibilities of their own.

So yah a Subpath will always (in my opinion) need someone at the 'top'. Just looking at the structure of subpaths, they are not as fundamentally flawed as people suggest.

CODE
Path to subpaths:

       GM (Mug)
             |
        Archon Primogen (Dalnum)
            __|__
           |     |
           |    etc
        Archon Primarch (Subpaths) (Maiyu)
          _________________|_________________
         |                                   |
Archon Warrior/Rogue Subpaths (Sashia)   Archon Mage/Poet Subpaths
         ________|______                     |
        |  |  |     | | |                   etc
       Ch Ba Do       etc.

Subpath

                     Elder
     _________________|_________________
    |     |     |           |     |     |
  Guide Guide Guide       Guide Guide Guide (Guides may run various
    |_____|_____|___________|_____|_____|   departments (ie events or such))
                  |        |
              Aspirants  Walkers


There is nothing wrong with that structure just because oh noes there is a single person at the top. Problems can be run into when an Elder takes on to much responsibility within their path. Something like personally approving every single aspirant or even new walkers should not be something an elder should be involved in. Something as broad as training policies (or any rules and procedures) should also not be solely determined by an elder but by the elder and guide circle.

An elder is mostly necessary for communication with the next level of up. They are a good contact point and an efficient filter in getting stuff like requests up top. Filter is a bit of a poor choice of words as they shouldn't 'filter' anything that is already decided by a larger group, perhaps pass on is better.

Something like banning people from subpath should also be limited to the elder. The Painters subpath might have different divisions of role-play and thus an argument could be made that someone in charge of a particular role-play section could boot people from it. However removing someone from a subpath has some pretty far reaching consequences for the path as a whole. It's better to have on person educated on policies and procedures (dictated from those above them) and be able to carry out a booting (upon the advisement and decision as those below them).

A well informed and competent guide circle that is held accountable by the walkers can handle pretty much everything in a subpath if responsibilities are properly dispersed. Something like this:

CODE
Painters Subpath

                 Elder
                   |
---------------Guide pool----------------
|        __________|_______________etc. |
|       |        |            |         |
|  Complaints Events    Ambassador      |
|     __|________           __|_____    |
|    |           |         |        |   |
| Internal    External  Subpaths  Clans |
-----------------------------------------
         ___________|___________
        |                       |
     Aspirants                Walkers


Considering this is Nexus we are talking about that might be a little to complicated considering population and such. There's also the fact that walkers can and should be included in some upper level activities such as being in charge of events or interpath relations. Still it's a decent model (if I do say so myself).

~

Really any proposals to drastically rewrite the organization of subpaths is based purely on the opinions of those burned by it's implementation. There is plenty to work with as the subpaths are already set up. A path has got to decentralize responsibilities and when a large decision is made approach it as democratically as possible. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater (always wanted to use that line).

Posted by: MainAttraction Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM

"The idea that scorched earth is required for any big change is ludicrous at best. People are hesitant to change, yes. People in power are even more so. People are open to new ideas as long as they are provided an opportunity to shape them."


Lets see then. For any guide or elder (preferably present) fill out this survey: Just x anything you'd be open to...


training maximum start to walk is 2 weeks

busy work trials fully eliminated (no more worthless crap, no more mandatory "classes" etc, and no "patience" trials)

all trainees can be npc while training


I don't think theres very many in place that would x more than 1. For the most part theres enough freedom to shape these individually, for example what constitutes busy work etc is open for debate.

Posted by: Kensi Apr 7 2010, 07:46 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM) *
For any guide or elder (preferably present) fill out this survey:


H'okay. I was ascended as a Do Guide for a few months early last spring, after less than a year of being a complete stranger in the kingdoms. My training took four months total, and it was a very, very enjoyable time - BeautyBeast is my Sensei. For those who have been waiting barefoot in the snowstorm for six years to start training, I think that's absurd and doesn't (or shouldn't) exist now. It's a shame that might have happened once or twice, but I personally know no one who has had an unreasonable training length.

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM) *
...training maximum start to walk is 2 weeks


Personally, I have no problems with starting to guide someone to train themselves on the first time I meet them, to be honest. If someone is ready, both they and their guide will understand, and it's as simple as that. If that takes two minutes, two days, or two weeks, I don't think it matters. Still, I feel that the things the Path truly represents would be diluted if there was any kind of training timeframe. It undermines the personal element that each Do's training is as different as they are, which it ought to be. Most Do Guides don't have a waiting period, or anything ridiculous like that to determine when one's training begins.


QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM) *
...busy work trials fully eliminated (no more worthless crap, no more mandatory "classes" etc, and no "patience" trials)...


I'm all for eliminating busy work, but I'm not for eliminating work that has a resonance with path ideals. It should be an equal working environment between walker and guide: the walker to mindfully work through the task that the guide has likewise mindfully crafted for the walker. Both people learn in this process, and it's valuable that Do training affords this. I'm a huge, huge fan of classes: discussion forums in which Do concepts are shared with a community of peers. On good nights, everyone jumps in and contributes something, and if they don't, they (presumably) are gnawing on the material anyway and doing something with it upstairs. So, classes are wonderful tools! Patience trials have to be there.

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM) *
...all trainees can be npc while training...


I don't agree with this at all, and here's why. http://users.nexustk.com/userfiles/cysote.html He is, hands-down, one of the best TK-warriors I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. He is an Ee San (W) with the most solid command of overflow mechanics I've ever seen, and has never needed a progressive fury spell to hunt effectively. He's never joined a subpath, not even NPC. I don't see why hunting is that big of a deal that you have to rely on a fury spell to grind that extra few million difference than if you were smartly vita'ing on aethers with a good poet and in an appropriate place. I think someone who is concerned about the advantages an NPC subpath gives should go seek another path. Oblivion has that famous saying that the Tangun Do NPC picked up, and I think it's appropriate here.

That, and I don't care much for hunting. tongue.gif Neener, neener. tongue.gif

Posted by: Dritz Apr 7 2010, 07:50 PM

In regards to the current line of discussion (being NPC while training for PC) any failings (if there truly is one, more on that later) would be due to a perversion of the system not an inherent flaw in the theoretical setup of the organization. If there is a problem then people need to be loud about it. This means going up one line from them with a complaint. It's dumb to act on one or even several complaints (sorry any single person, you are not that important) but there should be a system for similar complaints to accumulate.

This is really where everything breaks down in Nexus and everywhere in life. You can't act on one person but even if there are others with similar issues how likely are they to stand up as well? If there is not a set person or team in place, how do you guarantee complaints won't be sent to a million different people and causing no one to recognize the problem.

So back to the NPC thing. Is it a problem? It seems to be causing some ripples around here but I do not hear much of it in game.

Another thing that is not done but should theoretically be possible is bring complaints further up the line if you feel they are not being heard. This is not much of a problem within a subpath since it is fairly trivial to start complaining to a guide and then moving to the elder. When you get to the Archon line things get kinda screwy (I am getting into hearsay stuff here, I've never really dealt with archons all that extensively). Going to a subpath archon or anywhere above that will get you rerouted to the elder.

Such a stance from the Archons and above is understandable. They want to discourage people from going straight to them with problems (which shouldn't happen). Only thing I can say to that is stop being lazy Archons tongue.gif, be better at filtering stuff. Maybe lay out some requirements on say sufficient time between going to an elder with an issue and then moving to an archon.

~

Anyways I am rambling a bit. My point is be loud (though not obnoxious please sad.gif) and get support. Most guides (I would hope) will listen and address complaints. If Mug is reading, don't be a tyrant but still put the fear of god (how is that for a contradiction) into subpaths that don't listen to walkers/aspirants. Personally even though Kru. nor it's Archons interfere much in the subpaths I try to act as if they could at any moment.

Posted by: Musoyan Apr 7 2010, 08:04 PM

Kensi, while you were a Do in training, didn't you have this exact same issue? Remember I told you to talk to the elder at the time because you said were getting tired of waiting so long? =P

Posted by: Kensi Apr 7 2010, 08:17 PM

QUOTE (Musoyan @ Apr 7 2010, 08:04 PM) *
....Remember I told you to talk to the elder at the time because you said were getting tired of waiting...


Patience is something we constantly train ourselves. smile.gif

It's gotten better, I swear. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Dritz Apr 7 2010, 08:32 PM

Patience is something that can be tested and taught in game... to an extent. It is the finest of fine lines (as if made but an expert in fine line making). You go to far and your role-play concept of patience encroaches on not only my real-life patience but also my real-life time. The concept of role-play should never extend beyond the confines it is created in (in this case the online game Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds) if the player does not want it to.

To often people use the term 'role-play' to defend a position when it can so easily be turned back on them. This was a major problem with subpaths pre-quota. They were basically in denial as to what their role in the game was (provide role-play opportunities for all players).

Another fun role-play fact, Nexus time is about 8 times faster than real time. Are you a role-play organization? Ok then you better acknowledge that game time exists. Two weeks* is more like 16 (another fun fact: that is a little over one semester in many Schools).

* Just a note that I'm not taking a stance on this 'how long should training take' thing. I simply chose two weeks since it was the number that is being used in the thread. As with all things, training takes as long as necessary.

~~~

Huzzah 600 posts, my value is now exactly 600 round here.

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 7 2010, 09:21 PM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Apr 7 2010, 08:46 PM) *
I don't agree with this at all, and here's why. http://users.nexustk.com/userfiles/cysote.html He is, hands-down, one of the best TK-warriors I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. He is an Ee San (W) with the most solid command of overflow mechanics I've ever seen, and has never needed a progressive fury spell to hunt effectively. He's never joined a subpath, not even NPC. I don't see why hunting is that big of a deal that you have to rely on a fury spell to grind that extra few million difference than if you were smartly vita'ing on aethers with a good poet and in an appropriate place. I think someone who is concerned about the advantages an NPC subpath gives should go seek another path.


Ah, but see we need to address the issue that over 90% (lol percentages!) of players flat out refuse to hunt with rageless/cunningless warriors/rogues. I mentioned in an earlier post that I was denied an Ox 1 group because I didn't have rage. Before the PC subpaths got rage/cunning we didn't have this problem. Some people accepted that not every players is going to have those spells, but in current Nexus, everyone expects you to have one. This ties us back into the idea that Rage/Cunning should be a 99 spell not a subpath spell.

Posted by: Musoyan Apr 7 2010, 09:33 PM

As a 99 rageless warrior it took me over a minute just to kill 1 chick in chick2. My friend, whom was the same stats but had a rage, was able to do in in less then 10 seconds.

There is a reason Cysote is only EE san but his character is over 6 years old.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 8 2010, 05:47 AM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Apr 7 2010, 07:46 PM) *
I don't agree with this at all, and here's why. http://users.nexustk.com/userfiles/cysote.html He is, hands-down, one of the best TK-warriors I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. He is an Ee San (W) with the most solid command of overflow mechanics I've ever seen, and has never needed a progressive fury spell to hunt effectively. He's never joined a subpath, not even NPC. I don't see why hunting is that big of a deal that you have to rely on a fury spell to grind that extra few million difference than if you were smartly vita'ing on aethers with a good poet and in an appropriate place. I think someone who is concerned about the advantages an NPC subpath gives should go seek another path. Oblivion has that famous saying that the Tangun Do NPC picked up, and I think it's appropriate here.

That, and I don't care much for hunting. tongue.gif Neener, neener. tongue.gif


I'm sorry to say but your argument is severely flawed.

First of all, how long did it take him to reach Ee san without rage? A longer time than a Rager is evidence that, no, he doesn't make xp as efficiently. And faster is important because the activity of hunting is a time investment, and if Mages and Poets realize they put forth the same effort they would with a Rage but make less xp, they will avoid hunting with him. This is why making the "few million" differences are important.

(You can make the argument it's not important to you, but again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU! What is important to the majority is what is important. The majority of Poets and Mages do not enjoy working hard for less xp, and rightly so given the demands of their class.)

Secondly, who did he hunt with? Did he have RL friends? Did he hunt with random strangers he met over the net, and the individuals change periodically? If he has loyal friends, that is a special circumstance most players don't have. Most people hunt with whoever happens to be online because many players play infrequently.

Thirdly, is he hunting in the same caves as other Ragers of his stat level do? Or is he needing to hunt with lower stat players in caves where he 1shots everything, but the other party members are significantly below his own stats and he actually makes less xp than he would in a cave more appropriate for his stats?

Fourthly, (and this is the most important factor) if he is an exception to the majority then why should the exception be the standard you apply to the majority? If one guy (due to whatever unique circumstances surrounds him) can routinely find hunts without Rage yet make identical xp/time investment, but 50 other people instead sit around begging through whispers and sage with no luck, then the experience the majority has should be determining the standard, not one guy with luck on his side.


I am also going to tell you right now that there is no way to "smartly vita on aethers" and compensate for the lack of Rage. This is not an issue of "skill"; it's an issue of math. To summarize things, Rage allows a Warrior to spit out more numbers than they otherwise can and in something like Vortex (where the spawn is high), the more numbers you can spit out the better xp you'll make. If you don't understand what I'm saying, tell me and I will be happy to elaborate.

But if you understand that combat is a simple math game-- that enemy HP is a number and attacks are numbers that subtract from HP, it should be easy to understand that blows which subtract tens of thousands (and later, hundreds of thousands) of HP for 5 straight minutes makes more experience.

The closest you could get to Rage-like xp accumulation without Rage is if you can 1 hit with all your vita attacks (this includes Assault). But this requires the cave spawns to be lower, such as in Mythic. This is why Mountie used to make just as much xp as a Rage6er in places like snake3-- he had Rend to help him compensate the difference, and the total amount of xp possible was capped by spawn times. While on R6 you could clear a room in less than a minute, then need to wait several minutes for the room to respawn. Vortex is nothing like that. There is a steady stream of enemies to defeat, and this is even with polearms allowing a Warrior to attack 12 enemies at once instead of just 4.

Let me stress that part about polearms attacking enemies again. Even if you kill all enemies with overflow, you're not gonna kill 12 enemies, or even 6 enemies with that overflow.

So, obtaining Rage-like xp is most certainly not going to be true for newb 99 Warriors, who have a hard enough time keeping up with Rogues due to the invisible multiplier allowing Cunning to slice through pre-horse2 caves like butter.


You are also grossly misinterpreting the context of what Oblivion meant. Oblivion's statement was made in a time when Do hit harder than any other Warrior in the game because of the original Spirit blade and Rage not existing. Consequently many wanted to be a Do so they could hunt better. And when Rage was added, most Crs had Rage 2 or 3, because obtaining Rage 5 put you into all lv3 caves and the best caves to hunt in were horse2, ox2 and rat3--and horse3 only if you had over mil vita. For many years Do was the best path for hunters, countered only by the anti-hunting Do attitudes. (Personally I don't get the hate; there is nothing about hunting that makes one a poor roleplayer. Dungeons and Dragons, which pretty much created the concept, is a game where statistics matter a lot).

Today, when it comes to hunting there really is no significant "advantage" for being in a PC Warrior path (the advantage is instead PVP). So you cannot make the argument that because someone likes to hunt with the other hours of their day not spent responding to an nmail trial or whatever oral test you demand of them, they are only interested in "power".

What they are interested in doing is enjoying the time they play and if they have aspirations to participate in season hunting events or obtain San marks (which is the INTENDED GAMEPLAY, not some side-thing. The GAME is hunting and RP is the optional, side activity) they must forsake those desires for how many months it takes to get into the path then "earn" the right to learn the Rage and ingress they could have had from the start as an NPC.

When you get right down to it, the only thing PC paths offer is community. One would think these communities would be more inviting and not expect people to sacrifice playing the game in order to "earn" the right to join. It's been turned into this cult-like conversion ritual. It's like that part of the film Fight Club, where people had to wait outside for x number of days until they had been psychologically been broke down to obey rather than think. Which-- when you think of how some people remained on the porch longer than others although the only real requirement was waiting-- is very similar to subpaths.

QUOTE (Kensi @ Apr 7 2010, 08:17 PM) *
Patience is something we constantly train ourselves. smile.gif

It's gotten better, I swear. rolleyes.gif


Or you have a selective memory.

QUOTE (Dritz @ Apr 7 2010, 07:50 PM) *
In regards to the current line of discussion (being NPC while training for PC) any failings (if there truly is one, more on that later) would be due to a perversion of the system not an inherent flaw in the theoretical setup of the organization. If there is a problem then people need to be loud about it. This means going up one line from them with a complaint. It's dumb to act on one or even several complaints (sorry any single person, you are not that important) but there should be a system for similar complaints to accumulate.

This is really where everything breaks down in Nexus and everywhere in life. You can't act on one person but even if there are others with similar issues how likely are they to stand up as well? If there is not a set person or team in place, how do you guarantee complaints won't be sent to a million different people and causing no one to recognize the problem.


I understand what you are saying, but I like to think that some problems are so obvious that a large number of complaints aren't needed to justify acknowledgment of the problem.

In this case, it is common knowledge to everyone that Rage is a crucial element of hunting in the game. The majority of players enjoy participating in some degree of hunting, especially during seasonal events.

Since we know that season events usually last a weekend (and at most a week), and that without Rage a Warrior may struggle to complete that quest, we can see a correlation between asking aspirants to lose Rage and them missing out on big parts of the gameplay.

Some will argue asking people to lose out on fun proves "patience". I do not think it proves patience, but only establishes that those individuals don't care about these elements of the game. This is why subpaths have historically been full of people that care little about the GAME, which I don't think is healthy because it isolated them from the rest of the community.

I think some people also have selective memories. It wasn't that long ago when PC Warriors were fighting for acknowledgment that they had hard times finding hunts because of a lack of Rage and wanted solutions to this problem. Now they are asking all aspirants to endure this period of their history while forgetting they themselves loathed it and sought to change it.

When the policy of losing Rage was created for Chonguns, the explanation was so the individual could prove they will be able to play without Rage-- which was a huge deal for PC Warriors since we didn't have Rage. Now this issue does not exist anymore, yet the policy continues under different arguments but none that make any degree of logical sense.

Before PC warriors had rage, it was at least logical to say, "Part of your aspirant trials is seeing if you can go without Rage, because as a Chongun you will never have it and before we use a Walker slot and lots of karma to add you, we want to make sure you will be happy with us".

Now the argument is what? That someone missing out on seasonal events and being pretty bored for x weeks somehow proves dedication? Especially when the loss of hunting as a time void filling activity has been removed and not replaced by anything? An aspirant is lucky to even have constant discussion with a Guide because "they are so busy" and they fear upsetting the Guide. So the aspirant pretty much is left to find something else to do with their time and the subpath does nothing to help them, because the subpath's intent is to frustrate them and see how they respond.

Again, the only thing of value which subpaths offer is community. Making people sacrifice enjoyment (playing the GAME) and personal freedom (anti-complaining) in order to join a community is how cults work. Emphasis is placed on the new identity as a member and "family" of the community. It's really pathetic. Subpaths are clubs for roleplaying and entertainment, not indoctrinating people with psuedo-religions.

And that subpaths function like cults is the primary reason it is so damn hard to get any issues dealt with in a responsible way. All problems are reduced to simple explanations that get repeated over and over, no matter how illogical they are when scrutinized.

QUOTE
So back to the NPC thing. Is it a problem? It seems to be causing some ripples around here but I do not hear much of it in game.


It's been an argument for years, more on this board than in-game, and because it is widely believed that any kind of complaint from an aspirant about anything will lead to them not being able to join the subpath, few complaints are made in-game. Then when they are Walkers with any desire to get items, spells or become guide, again they keep their personal opinions largely to themselves for fear of "causing waves" that might hurt their ambitions.

It's not like subpaths hang an anonymous suggestion box-- every complaint is tied to a character.

Subpaths are not setup for honest feedback and on some level I think you understand what I mean.

I made complaints about the system when I was asked to re-walk and when I dared to complain about it and point out how silly it was, I was barred from joining. It's not that I refused the "trials"-- I did the trials. My only crime was that I openly told people I did not at all agree with the method under the mistaken idea that given my history with the path (one would think former Guides who have trained many walkers, ran many events, and contributed significantly to the lore have paid their dues, but whatever), if I could get people to see reason then a hated policy would change and it would help people.

I mean seriously Dritz. I was one of the people who wrote the book on Chongun roleplaying, yet even I couldn't get back in because I dared to point out flaws in the paths. What kind of message do you think that sends to others about what will happen if they are honest about their experiences?

QUOTE (Dritz @ Apr 7 2010, 05:56 PM) *
The idea that scorched earth is required for any big change is ludicrous at best. People are hesitant to change, yes. People in power are even more so. People are open to new ideas as long as they are provided an opportunity to shape them. In the end something like 'get rid of the elder' is from my perspective a rather silly (strong language I know) suggestion.


It's not a silly idea to get rid of Elders.

You are assuming what is best for subpaths as they are now, which is as pseudo-religious groups that hold carnival events to earn new spells and items via an economic model.

The thing is, I don't believe the way subpaths function right now is the best use for their original purpose.

The original intent of subpaths was to create pseudo-secret societies to create a culture of roleplaying, similar to those in Jean Levi's Dream of Confucius. Most specifically, they were to fulfill social roles such as in RPG games like White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade. This is why ad-hoc rituals like the Trigram Circle were coded, and the concept of Walkers and Elders (Guides were added later by GM Grin). I am being specific here because this is what Dave Kennerly AKA GM Orb told me was his intent; this is not my personal opinion. This was the design goal.

Problem is, over the years subpaths have moved away from roleplaying and toward buying expansions to their path; areas, items, and new spells. Some argue this helps them roleplaying; most of the time these expansions have little to do with roleplaying and are instead used as carrots to reward members for being "loyal" or buying new areas so they can run more events which helps them earn more money to buy new stuff.

Most subpaths use a brownie point system for promotions, and this brownie point system revolves around earning the subpath points to buy new stuff.

So sure, for organizations built around buying bull[Content removed], Elders are needed because Elders need to communicate directly to Archons and GMs to work out the arrangements.

But when we think of roleplaying social groups, Elders are not needed. Elders are needed for systems of conformity, such as a business (which is how subpaths now work since they revolve around an economic model). Conformity is the opposite of individualism, which roleplaying actually revolves around; when everyone in a group is playing the shining knight, the value of playing a shining knight diminishes and must be replaced by some other unique attributes.

Roleplaying the roles of the subpaths become homogenized and the style of the Elder and his chosen few become the standard. Subpaths which have tried other models while having an Elder to central power but because of the Elder they have had issues because splinters begin to appear (which is bad for the Elder's goals). So by their nature, current subpaths cannot accept splinters because they are conformist and homogenized to produce effective and loyal workers.

For example, when the roleplay of a Chongun is a brave, virtuous warrior there is no room for mercenaries who value battlefield efficiency over morality.

While this does strengthen the homogenizing which makes them a more efficient business, it diminishes the roleplaying opportunities.

Now, when over half of the subpaths revolve around some strange idea of "neutrality" (or rather non-interaction) in every goddamn thing that happens, the opportunities for interesting roleplaying events to occur dramatically diminishes. There must be conflict for there to be fun; for example, roleplaying a princess who gets her way every single time and nothing ever goes wrong is not fun. Nor is it fun to be the unopposed hero who nobody wants to fight. Or the shaman whose rituals go 100% right every single time because no other group is trying to interfere.

In the place of true roleplaying, some groups create one-shot villains to oppose them, but because these villains are just invented peasant characters who have no real history, the players have no emotional involvement with them. Past "evil" roleplayers like the Shaman Crovax or Jaydephoenix were effective because they were the primary toons of the player and they were on all the time, building a history with their daily unscripted interaction.

Now instead we have the fabricated and overly complicated scripted theatre plays that never threaten to disrupt the status quo because they are scripted to let everything be restored in the end. Even if regular toons are used as key players they are scripted so that how things once were is how they will be at the end of the story. There is no element of challenge / risk or even reward, so it's not even a game. And nobody has to actually roleplay because the outcome has already been decided for them and nothing they ever do will change this. It's a linear story.

I argue it would be better to have many factions within a subpath IF there was no Elder trying to consolidate power and the subpaths didn't revolve around creating carnival events to earn new crap that might make them feel special but has nothing at all to do with roleplaying.

Posted by: Kensi Apr 8 2010, 08:06 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 8 2010, 06:47 AM) *
...an exception to the majority...be the standard you apply to the majority?


The countless peoples' stories who have managed to still enjoy the game without a rage while training for a few months in a subpath get lost and aren't as inspiring as someone who has done the same thing, to a much higher-profile degree. It's easy to make that point by showcasing an individual's outstanding accomplishments in that field. Simply, that's why organizations have figureheads, and athletes and musicians have legends: their inspiration by their exception to the majority lends itself to the individual's development in the majority.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 8 2010, 06:47 AM) *
... someone likes to hunt with the other hours of their day...The GAME is hunting .... hunting as a time void filling activity has been removed and not replaced by anything?


Hunting, in my mind, is not the game. There are much more "time-void filling activities" that I think are much more stimulating than hunting: Community Events, getting involved with COTW writings, clan activities, quests, crafting and gathering, and so on. What separates TK from any other game is the community and the involvements of the players. Do you think the majority of players who have been around over a decade do so for the expressed purpose of solely hunting?

It seems that the only people who are actually taking beef with this are the folks who believe that hunting is the #1 priority of the players of the game, or that hunting is the underscoring thing-to-do in this game that makes it all go round. Does the actual game change for you at Ee or Sam San other than the things you kill and the manner in which you kill them? These folks also might be at the point where they believe that a rage is wholly dependent on their success, which couldn't be farther from the real truth. It depends on how that person defines success, and more so on how they strive achieve it with the tools they have: not the ones they don't.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 8 2010, 08:22 AM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Apr 8 2010, 08:06 AM) *
The countless peoples' stories who have managed to still enjoy the game without a rage while training for a few months in a subpath get lost and aren't as inspiring as someone who has done the same thing, to a much higher-profile degree. It's easy to make that point by showcasing an individual's outstanding accomplishments in that field. Simply, that's why organizations have figureheads, and athletes and musicians have legends: their inspiration by their exception to the majority lends itself to the individual's development in the majority.


If subpaths were highly active organizations where every member is actively involved, you might have a point. Unfortunately people put forth a ton of effort and go long periods of time without being able to play just to join a social club where subpath chat and boards is the most useful thing to them. A minority of players are really "involved" in the path and contribute to it.

QUOTE
Hunting, in my mind, is not the game. There are much more "time-void filling activities" that I think are much more stimulating than hunting: Community Events, getting involved with COTW writings, clan activities, quests, crafting and gathering, and so on. What separates TK from any other game is the community and the involvements of the players. Do you think the majority of players who have been around over a decade do so for the expressed purpose of solely hunting?


Hunting is the game. In other games it is called PvE, or player versus environment. It is the primary activity of the game and almost everything in the game revolves around it, especially the economy. Almost all seasonal events require hunting in order to complete the quest. The majority of quests--even those created by subpaths-- involve something directly related to hunting. You can't even join a subpath unless you hunt to lv 50 and due to karma and exp requirements to add new members, Guides below lv99 are highly ineffective.

Roleplaying is not a "game". It is not mechanically intertwined into the game mechanics. I think this is sort of a flaw in the system and it could be improved, but for the moment that is how the game design functions. If you really think about it subpaths are used as a political meta-game and roleplaying has nothing to do with this meta-game.

As a comparison of roleplaying intertwined in the game mechanics, take Dungeons and Dragons. Many things you do to interact with the game environment can be done with roleplaying, be it convincing the leader of a band of vagrants to surrender or getting a cute elf chick to take off her skirt. You can fool your enemies into making dumb mistakes in combat. You can use spells for completely unintended purposes to achieve unique goals. You can do damn near anything. You can even impact the history of the game world in very significant ways.

Compared to Nexustk, roleplaying is highly disconnected from the game mechanics.

So are the majority of Nexus players around for the game elements of the game? A sizable portion are, but it is true a sizable portion are there for the political meta-game, too. Either way, the PvE element is the most important factor because everything is an extension to it. Even if all you do is craft or play the market, without many people hunting these activities would be worthless.

I would say for the majority of new players to the game, hunting is a big part of their experience and new players are the most common recruits for a subpath because they are fresh blood. So for this population it is absurd to expect them not to hunt just because you, the minority, doesn't like it.

I don't blame you for not enjoying hunting, I can completely understand why. But to believe it is not of dire importance to the gameplay of everyone is wrong. Even if you don't hunt yourself, you are still impacted by it. The majority of coins in the game are generated by selling items obtained from hunting, as are most of the items used by subpathers.

Posted by: Alston Apr 8 2010, 08:34 AM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Apr 8 2010, 06:06 AM) *
What separates TK from any other game is the community and the involvements of the players. Do you think the majority of players who have been around over a decade do so for the expressed purpose of solely hunting?

There are two types of people in nexus: Those obsessed with power, and those obsessed with power.

The difference? One involves politics and one involves actually playing the game.

Posted by: MainAttraction Apr 8 2010, 11:03 AM

Kensi: Not everyone is like you.

How does it hurt you to let someone use their rage? Is it really destroying your roleplay? You say hunting is not your priority and you could care less whether you had rage etc during a training period, but for some people thats what they find fun, so why are you limiting other peoples fun just because you don't believe in it as much? What your displaying is the cemented elitist faction that is nexus subpath. Everyone has their own expectations from the game, why are you allowed to disrupt/destroy that?

Posted by: Snikrot Apr 8 2010, 01:37 PM

Oldschool players with power in Subpaths, nowadays, don't understand the fact of being a "casual player".

If you are not in the Kingdoms for X months without leaving, you won't get this item or that position, unless you have
relations with high ranked people, because -of course- IG goes first!

Based on a true story.

Posted by: Winder Apr 8 2010, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 8 2010, 06:47 AM) *
I'm sorry to say but your argument is severely flawed.

First of all, how long did it take him to reach Ee san without rage? A longer time than a Rager is evidence that, no, he doesn't make xp as efficiently. And faster is important because the activity of hunting is a time investment, and if Mages and Poets realize they put forth the same effort they would with a Rage but make less xp, they will avoid hunting with him. This is why making the "few million" differences are important.

(You can make the argument it's not important to you, but again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU! What is important to the majority is what is important. The majority of Poets and Mages do not enjoy working hard for less xp, and rightly so given the demands of their class.)

Secondly, who did he hunt with? Did he have RL friends? Did he hunt with random strangers he met over the net, and the individuals change periodically? If he has loyal friends, that is a special circumstance most players don't have. Most people hunt with whoever happens to be online because many players play infrequently.

Thirdly, is he hunting in the same caves as other Ragers of his stat level do? Or is he needing to hunt with lower stat players in caves where he 1shots everything, but the other party members are significantly below his own stats and he actually makes less xp than he would in a cave more appropriate for his stats?

Fourthly, (and this is the most important factor) if he is an exception to the majority then why should the exception be the standard you apply to the majority? If one guy (due to whatever unique circumstances surrounds him) can routinely find hunts without Rage yet make identical xp/time investment, but 50 other people instead sit around begging through whispers and sage with no luck, then the experience the majority has should be determining the standard, not one guy with luck on his side.


I am also going to tell you right now that there is no way to "smartly vita on aethers" and compensate for the lack of Rage. This is not an issue of "skill"; it's an issue of math. To summarize things, Rage allows a Warrior to spit out more numbers than they otherwise can and in something like Vortex (where the spawn is high), the more numbers you can spit out the better xp you'll make. If you don't understand what I'm saying, tell me and I will be happy to elaborate.

But if you understand that combat is a simple math game-- that enemy HP is a number and attacks are numbers that subtract from HP, it should be easy to understand that blows which subtract tens of thousands (and later, hundreds of thousands) of HP for 5 straight minutes makes more experience.

The closest you could get to Rage-like xp accumulation without Rage is if you can 1 hit with all your vita attacks (this includes Assault). But this requires the cave spawns to be lower, such as in Mythic. This is why Mountie used to make just as much xp as a Rage6er in places like snake3-- he had Rend to help him compensate the difference, and the total amount of xp possible was capped by spawn times. While on R6 you could clear a room in less than a minute, then need to wait several minutes for the room to respawn. Vortex is nothing like that. There is a steady stream of enemies to defeat, and this is even with polearms allowing a Warrior to attack 12 enemies at once instead of just 4.

Let me stress that part about polearms attacking enemies again. Even if you kill all enemies with overflow, you're not gonna kill 12 enemies, or even 6 enemies with that overflow.

So, obtaining Rage-like xp is most certainly not going to be true for newb 99 Warriors, who have a hard enough time keeping up with Rogues due to the invisible multiplier allowing Cunning to slice through pre-horse2 caves like butter.


You are also grossly misinterpreting the context of what Oblivion meant. Oblivion's statement was made in a time when Do hit harder than any other Warrior in the game because of the original Spirit blade and Rage not existing. Consequently many wanted to be a Do so they could hunt better. And when Rage was added, most Crs had Rage 2 or 3, because obtaining Rage 5 put you into all lv3 caves and the best caves to hunt in were horse2, ox2 and rat3--and horse3 only if you had over mil vita. For many years Do was the best path for hunters, countered only by the anti-hunting Do attitudes. (Personally I don't get the hate; there is nothing about hunting that makes one a poor roleplayer. Dungeons and Dragons, which pretty much created the concept, is a game where statistics matter a lot).

Today, when it comes to hunting there really is no significant "advantage" for being in a PC Warrior path (the advantage is instead PVP). So you cannot make the argument that because someone likes to hunt with the other hours of their day not spent responding to an nmail trial or whatever oral test you demand of them, they are only interested in "power".

What they are interested in doing is enjoying the time they play and if they have aspirations to participate in season hunting events or obtain San marks (which is the INTENDED GAMEPLAY, not some side-thing. The GAME is hunting and RP is the optional, side activity) they must forsake those desires for how many months it takes to get into the path then "earn" the right to learn the Rage and ingress they could have had from the start as an NPC.

When you get right down to it, the only thing PC paths offer is community. One would think these communities would be more inviting and not expect people to sacrifice playing the game in order to "earn" the right to join. It's been turned into this cult-like conversion ritual. It's like that part of the film Fight Club, where people had to wait outside for x number of days until they had been psychologically been broke down to obey rather than think. Which-- when you think of how some people remained on the porch longer than others although the only real requirement was waiting-- is very similar to subpaths.



Or you have a selective memory.



I understand what you are saying, but I like to think that some problems are so obvious that a large number of complaints aren't needed to justify acknowledgment of the problem.

In this case, it is common knowledge to everyone that Rage is a crucial element of hunting in the game. The majority of players enjoy participating in some degree of hunting, especially during seasonal events.

Since we know that season events usually last a weekend (and at most a week), and that without Rage a Warrior may struggle to complete that quest, we can see a correlation between asking aspirants to lose Rage and them missing out on big parts of the gameplay.

Some will argue asking people to lose out on fun proves "patience". I do not think it proves patience, but only establishes that those individuals don't care about these elements of the game. This is why subpaths have historically been full of people that care little about the GAME, which I don't think is healthy because it isolated them from the rest of the community.

I think some people also have selective memories. It wasn't that long ago when PC Warriors were fighting for acknowledgment that they had hard times finding hunts because of a lack of Rage and wanted solutions to this problem. Now they are asking all aspirants to endure this period of their history while forgetting they themselves loathed it and sought to change it.

When the policy of losing Rage was created for Chonguns, the explanation was so the individual could prove they will be able to play without Rage-- which was a huge deal for PC Warriors since we didn't have Rage. Now this issue does not exist anymore, yet the policy continues under different arguments but none that make any degree of logical sense.

Before PC warriors had rage, it was at least logical to say, "Part of your aspirant trials is seeing if you can go without Rage, because as a Chongun you will never have it and before we use a Walker slot and lots of karma to add you, we want to make sure you will be happy with us".

Now the argument is what? That someone missing out on seasonal events and being pretty bored for x weeks somehow proves dedication? Especially when the loss of hunting as a time void filling activity has been removed and not replaced by anything? An aspirant is lucky to even have constant discussion with a Guide because "they are so busy" and they fear upsetting the Guide. So the aspirant pretty much is left to find something else to do with their time and the subpath does nothing to help them, because the subpath's intent is to frustrate them and see how they respond.

Again, the only thing of value which subpaths offer is community. Making people sacrifice enjoyment (playing the GAME) and personal freedom (anti-complaining) in order to join a community is how cults work. Emphasis is placed on the new identity as a member and "family" of the community. It's really pathetic. Subpaths are clubs for roleplaying and entertainment, not indoctrinating people with psuedo-religions.

And that subpaths function like cults is the primary reason it is so damn hard to get any issues dealt with in a responsible way. All problems are reduced to simple explanations that get repeated over and over, no matter how illogical they are when scrutinized.



It's been an argument for years, more on this board than in-game, and because it is widely believed that any kind of complaint from an aspirant about anything will lead to them not being able to join the subpath, few complaints are made in-game. Then when they are Walkers with any desire to get items, spells or become guide, again they keep their personal opinions largely to themselves for fear of "causing waves" that might hurt their ambitions.

It's not like subpaths hang an anonymous suggestion box-- every complaint is tied to a character.

Subpaths are not setup for honest feedback and on some level I think you understand what I mean.

I made complaints about the system when I was asked to re-walk and when I dared to complain about it and point out how silly it was, I was barred from joining. It's not that I refused the "trials"-- I did the trials. My only crime was that I openly told people I did not at all agree with the method under the mistaken idea that given my history with the path (one would think former Guides who have trained many walkers, ran many events, and contributed significantly to the lore have paid their dues, but whatever), if I could get people to see reason then a hated policy would change and it would help people.

I mean seriously Dritz. I was one of the people who wrote the book on Chongun roleplaying, yet even I couldn't get back in because I dared to point out flaws in the paths. What kind of message do you think that sends to others about what will happen if they are honest about their experiences?



It's not a silly idea to get rid of Elders.

You are assuming what is best for subpaths as they are now, which is as pseudo-religious groups that hold carnival events to earn new spells and items via an economic model.

The thing is, I don't believe the way subpaths function right now is the best use for their original purpose.

The original intent of subpaths was to create pseudo-secret societies to create a culture of roleplaying, similar to those in Jean Levi's Dream of Confucius. Most specifically, they were to fulfill social roles such as in RPG games like White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade. This is why ad-hoc rituals like the Trigram Circle were coded, and the concept of Walkers and Elders (Guides were added later by GM Grin). I am being specific here because this is what Dave Kennerly AKA GM Orb told me was his intent; this is not my personal opinion. This was the design goal.

Problem is, over the years subpaths have moved away from roleplaying and toward buying expansions to their path; areas, items, and new spells. Some argue this helps them roleplaying; most of the time these expansions have little to do with roleplaying and are instead used as carrots to reward members for being "loyal" or buying new areas so they can run more events which helps them earn more money to buy new stuff.

Most subpaths use a brownie point system for promotions, and this brownie point system revolves around earning the subpath points to buy new stuff.

So sure, for organizations built around buying bull[Content removed], Elders are needed because Elders need to communicate directly to Archons and GMs to work out the arrangements.

But when we think of roleplaying social groups, Elders are not needed. Elders are needed for systems of conformity, such as a business (which is how subpaths now work since they revolve around an economic model). Conformity is the opposite of individualism, which roleplaying actually revolves around; when everyone in a group is playing the shining knight, the value of playing a shining knight diminishes and must be replaced by some other unique attributes.

Roleplaying the roles of the subpaths become homogenized and the style of the Elder and his chosen few become the standard. Subpaths which have tried other models while having an Elder to central power but because of the Elder they have had issues because splinters begin to appear (which is bad for the Elder's goals). So by their nature, current subpaths cannot accept splinters because they are conformist and homogenized to produce effective and loyal workers.

For example, when the roleplay of a Chongun is a brave, virtuous warrior there is no room for mercenaries who value battlefield efficiency over morality.

While this does strengthen the homogenizing which makes them a more efficient business, it diminishes the roleplaying opportunities.

Now, when over half of the subpaths revolve around some strange idea of "neutrality" (or rather non-interaction) in every goddamn thing that happens, the opportunities for interesting roleplaying events to occur dramatically diminishes. There must be conflict for there to be fun; for example, roleplaying a princess who gets her way every single time and nothing ever goes wrong is not fun. Nor is it fun to be the unopposed hero who nobody wants to fight. Or the shaman whose rituals go 100% right every single time because no other group is trying to interfere.

In the place of true roleplaying, some groups create one-shot villains to oppose them, but because these villains are just invented peasant characters who have no real history, the players have no emotional involvement with them. Past "evil" roleplayers like the Shaman Crovax or Jaydephoenix were effective because they were the primary toons of the player and they were on all the time, building a history with their daily unscripted interaction.

Now instead we have the fabricated and overly complicated scripted theatre plays that never threaten to disrupt the status quo because they are scripted to let everything be restored in the end. Even if regular toons are used as key players they are scripted so that how things once were is how they will be at the end of the story. There is no element of challenge / risk or even reward, so it's not even a game. And nobody has to actually roleplay because the outcome has already been decided for them and nothing they ever do will change this. It's a linear story.

I argue it would be better to have many factions within a subpath IF there was no Elder trying to consolidate power and the subpaths didn't revolve around creating carnival events to earn new crap that might make them feel special but has nothing at all to do with roleplaying.


I have just created the longest post on these forums by quoting DM and adding this one line :-)

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 8 2010, 07:52 PM

I was just thinking TL:DR when I saw that post.

Posted by: SilentS Apr 8 2010, 10:08 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 8 2010, 04:47 AM) *
I'm sorry to say but your argument is severely flawed.
...
Rant
Rant
Rant
...


The GAME is hunting and RP is the optional, side activity

This is where you are wrong. Nexus is what you make of it. Hunting is NOT the game. It is only apart of it. Nothing more. Same goes for PVP, Elixirs, and RP. They are all ~APART~ of the game. They are in no ways the game themselves overall. Beyond that is all just ~personal opinion~. There is more to do in Nexus than solely hunt or RP, it is an amalgamation of everything that makes up the game. What a concept huh?

Posted by: MainAttraction Apr 8 2010, 10:40 PM

^ This is the problem with nexus. You have nice people in power who don't want to mess with any of the old magic they once remembered, without any valid reasoning other than "thats the way its always been".


What gives you the right to limit what people can make of the game? You're withholding part of the game from them without reason. The whole point is that theres no reason to actually bar npc subpath members from training other than maintaining old standards. Seriously give me 1 roleplay excuse besides it shows dedication, because its the trials before you get walked that show dedication. You don't see people in the powerlist telling you to not roleplay.


Posted by: SilentS Apr 8 2010, 11:14 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 8 2010, 09:40 PM) *
You don't see people in the powerlist telling you to not roleplay.

Hahahhaahahahaa..... For YEARS, and I mean that literally, that was the case. Hell it is still the case with some even today.


As for reasons, they have already been explained to some degree. It was more to deal with the ~PROBLEMS~ that were arising. Also trials do not show dedication in any way, shape, or form. The players actions are what shows it.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 9 2010, 08:13 AM

QUOTE (SilentS @ Apr 8 2010, 10:08 PM) *
This is where you are wrong. Nexus is what you make of it. Hunting is NOT the game. It is only apart of it. Nothing more. Same goes for PVP, Elixirs, and RP. They are all ~APART~ of the game. They are in no ways the game themselves overall. Beyond that is all just ~personal opinion~. There is more to do in Nexus than solely hunt or RP, it is an amalgamation of everything that makes up the game. What a concept huh?


Unfortunately for you what is a "game" is not a subjective thing. Because games can cost hundreds of millions of dollars to bring to market, people only spend that kind of money because there is research and theory on how games are made and what makes them "good". It's not a shot in the dark.

There is an actual science to games and one of the requirements of a game is that they have clear goals, structure and rewards. In real roleplaying games these elements exist for roleplaying because they are a central element of the gameplay; this is not the case for Nexus because roleplaying in Nexus is detached from the actual game. Hell, if you really examine things the game is discouraging roleplaying by encouraging subpaths to devote their time to running carnival games. There are no clear rewards for roleplaying, not even at the developer level.

And if the activity is not rewarded by the structure of the game the activity is simply not part of the game's design. Even if mug goes and says, "This is for roleplaying!" if his design structure doesn't actually back up that statement then the game is not encouraging roleplaying. The game is its own entity.

People roleplaying in Nexus is nearly identical to people trying to roleplay in Yahoo chat rooms. It is possible to roleplay, but it's not possible to make a game out of it in such an environment because the environment is not setup to encourage roleplaying. And roleplaying by itself is not a game; it's really nothing more than improv acting.

Roleplaying in Nexus is like taking your dog for a walk. It can be a fun activity but it is not a game.

QUOTE (Winder @ Apr 8 2010, 07:50 PM) *
I have just created the longest post on these forums by quoting DM and adding this one line :-)


Not a big reader of books, are you?

You can try to ridicule my posts with nonsense like this-- but you're not putting yourself in a good position by announcing to the world that too many words is hard for you.

Posted by: Winder Apr 9 2010, 08:40 AM

Awww DM I still read it. Just making fun of your long winded-ness. No ill will intended :-p

Posted by: Alston Apr 9 2010, 08:55 AM

Seriously, isn't this going too far over a http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game?

By the way:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game [geym] - noun, adjective,gam·er, gam·est, verb,gamed, gam·ing.

–noun

  1. an amusement or pastime: children's games.
  2. the material or equipment used in playing certain games: a store selling toys and games.
  3. a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.
  4. a single occasion of such an activity, or a definite portion of one: the final game of the season; a rubber of three games at bridge.
  5. the number of points required to win a game.
  6. the score at a particular stage in a game: With five minutes to play, the game was 7 to 0.
  7. a particular manner or style of playing a game: Her game of chess is improving.
  8. anything resembling a game, as in requiring skill, endurance, or adherence to rules: the game of diplomacy.
  9. a trick or strategy: to see through someone's game.
  10. fun; sport of any kind; joke: That's about enough of your games.
  11. wild animals, including birds and fishes, such as are hunted for food or taken for sport or profit.
  12. the flesh of such wild animals or other game, used as food: a dish of game.
  13. any object of pursuit, attack, abuse, etc.: The new boy at school seemed to be fair game for practical jokers.
  14. Informal. a business or profession: He's in the real-estate game.
  15. Archaic. fighting spirit; pluck.


As you can see, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game is a very relative term. Apply to nexus as you see fit.

Posted by: Kensi Apr 9 2010, 10:17 AM

I like 3, 7, 8 and 14. smile.gif

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 9 2010, 03:40 PM

QUOTE (Alston @ Apr 9 2010, 08:55 AM) *
Seriously, isn't this going too far over a http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game?

By the way:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/game [geym] - noun, adjective,gam·er, gam·est, verb,gamed, gam·ing.


Using a dictionary definition as an argument is a logical fallacy because I'm using the definition of a game as it is used by professional game designers who create games for a living.

There is mountains of analytical research on the topic of what games are and are not, and all such discussions arrive at the same conclusions. Game development is an industry, not a speculation.

Roleplaying is not a game by itself.

Posted by: Alston Apr 9 2010, 04:43 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 9 2010, 01:40 PM) *
Using a dictionary definition as an argument is a logical fallacy because I'm using the definition of a game as it is used by professional game designers who create games for a living.

There is mountains of analytical research on the topic of what games are and are not, and all such discussions arrive at the same conclusions. Game development is an industry, not a speculation.

Roleplaying is not a game by itself.

Thus, you're talking about people in Korea in 1995 developing one of the first graphical massively-multiplayer-online games.

I'm pretty sure bashing cute creatures and playing cute chibis were on the top of their list on that one.

Mountains of analytical research... yeah... nexon and kru, at the time, didn't have the resources to do that nor to access it. Today, Kru (which isn't nexon anymore) still doesn't have access to those resources.

Roleplaying is not a game by itself? The founders of furcadia, second life, and the endless void of now empty Mu**'s out there would beg to differ. People who still pen & paper RP would beg to differ with you.

However, all in all, I wasn't arguing with you. Game is an ambiguous term, applied to a specific medium that is targeted at a specific audience.

Nexus has lost its identity, and thus has become nothing short of a small town off the side of the highway. The few tenants that still remain do nothing more than sit around and debate the same old insignificant issues that plague the aging town. Many of the original residents have moved on to the bigger cities, or to build better towns, or simply have moved to better things.

Nexus is Montana now.

So, who are you to preach that nexus is a hack 'n' slash and must be played as such to those few who hang on simply for the roleplaying elements?

My response, simply, was that it doesn't matter what your opinion of what the game must be is. We all have our own opinions, ideas, and we each derive our own entertainment from the same medium. Just because it may have elements relative to kill-to-buff-up, doesn't mean it doesn't have elements to hang-around-and-roleplay.

As it stands, the game's been sacked from both ends. Hunting has become so much a chore that only those who want the elite status of "top 100" keep doing it. Roleplaying has become so controlled that only those who absolutely want to be power-trippers get to be in charge.

The argument of what the game truly is is relative nonsense being spun from both camps. I say enjoy the game the way you wish to enjoy it, or move on. Don't listen to anyone else or their interpretation of what Nexus is supposed to be, was supposed to be, or should be.

Now, to argue against that is quite emphatic of anyone, and is akin to the sins of christianity and their attempts to convince everyone else what to believe.

Posted by: SilentS Apr 9 2010, 05:30 PM

Talk about making something out of nothing over stupid reasons. I will state it again....

QUOTE (SilentS @ Apr 8 2010, 09:08 PM) *
Nexus is what you make of it. Hunting is NOT the game. It is only apart of it. Nothing more. Same goes for PVP, Elixirs, and RP. They are all ~APART~ of the game. They are in no ways the game themselves overall. Beyond that is all just ~personal opinion~.

Basicly meaning, There is so much to do in Nexus. You do not ~HAVE~ to hunt if you do not want to. You do not ~HAVE~ to roleplay if you do not want to do that. You do not ~HAVE~ to go to any events or PVP areas if you do not want to. They are all just ~elements~ of the game as a whole. To claim that only one part is the game itself is just ignorant. Not everybody plays for the same reasons, no matter what anybody claims.

Besides, who are we fooling anyways? Nexus is only a ~game~ to those to play it (for whatever reason they may have). But overall, it is nothing more than a business that earns a company an income (successful or not, that is a different topic).

Posted by: Dritz Apr 9 2010, 07:07 PM

Why can't we all just get along?

You can pretty much twist the definition of game any way you want it in relation to what Nexus 'is'. No one is going to agree with one another and nobody has as much support as they think.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 9 2010, 09:52 PM

QUOTE (Alston @ Apr 9 2010, 04:43 PM) *
Roleplaying is not a game by itself? The founders of furcadia, second life, and the endless void of now empty Mu**'s out there would beg to differ. People who still pen & paper RP would beg to differ with you.


I believe that, not too long ago, I already wrote a long post about how a "pen and paper", or tabletop rpg , has roleplaying part of the game mechanics and why NexusTK does not.

Also, Furcadia and Second Life have a very different kind of roleplaying than the type we are discussing here; Second Life and Furcadia are more of a virtual world / reality simulation, like LucasArts' Habitat, and on that grounds I don't really consider them to be games.

QUOTE (SilentS @ Apr 9 2010, 05:30 PM) *
There is so much to do in Nexus. You do not ~HAVE~ to hunt if you do not want to. You do not ~HAVE~ to roleplay if you do not want to do that. You do not ~HAVE~ to go to any events or PVP areas if you do not want to. They are all just ~elements~ of the game as a whole. To claim that only one part is the game itself is just ignorant. Not everybody plays for the same reasons, no matter what anybody claims.


I don't think I'm being ignorant, but for the sake of getting my point across, let's suppose I am.

How would it change that, by demanding Warriors nerf themselves so they are less desirable to hunt with (especially given that since all PC Warriors now have Rage, there are more Ragers to compete with than ever before), you are forcing someone to not participate in part of the game that your subpath has no jurisdiction over? You are still placing negative value on the activity of hunting and practically barring them from doing so, as to try to find hunts without Rage leads to a trial of frustration. And when you express a lack of care for how your trials are interrupting their ability to enjoy their game time, you express apathy toward them.

It is not like someone hunting rather than attending a subpath meeting. Hunting is an activity they do in between whatever trials you are sending them. What right do you, as another paying customer of the game, have to deny someone else the right to hunt with their free time? Guides and Elders always [Content removed] about how they are so damn busy; you should be glad you at least have something fun to do every time you login, because the majority of your aspirants do not. Especially if they play at odd hours.

The argument of "it's tradition" is a petty argument. In the words of Bruce Lee; absorb what is useful and disregard what is useless.

And by the way SilentS, I seem to recall you being rather upset when Archons and GMs told you there was more to do in the game than hunt when you tried to get improvements to subpath warrior hunting. Don't you think you're being hypocritical here? Or have you forgotten what hunger is like now that your belly is full?

Posted by: SilentS Apr 9 2010, 11:59 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 9 2010, 08:52 PM) *
And by the way SilentS, I seem to recall you being rather upset when Archons and GMs told you there was more to do in the game than hunt when you tried to get improvements to subpath warrior hunting. Don't you think you're being hypocritical here? Or have you forgotten what hunger is like now that your belly is full?

I am not arguing that fact. I am in agreeance that there are major flaws. What I was stating is that you cannot claim just a single element as the whole. Also truthfully, I have hardly hunted since the subpaths got their "rage" counterparts, so that point is rather moot.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 10 2010, 07:30 AM

QUOTE (SilentS @ Apr 9 2010, 11:59 PM) *
Also truthfully, I have hardly hunted since the subpaths got their "rage" counterparts, so that point is rather moot.


That is not at all true. When I was last regged you were hunting nearly every day.

Posted by: SilentS Apr 10 2010, 05:15 PM

I said "hardly", not "never". And doing a max or 2 every day or 2 is minor at the sam+ stat stage. Back then I spent more time doing my Elder stuff than hunting. I was more referring to the overall perspective since the time of the subpath rage counterparts. I often go weeks to months at a time without hunting at all outside of a clan hunt or doing my minor quests. *shrugs* Anyways, this is off topic anyways.

Posted by: Slowpoke Apr 11 2010, 02:09 AM

Well, unfortunately I didn't get a chance to read through the entire seven pages of this thread, but I certainly did read the first post - and, in response: the Do have not gone anywhere! Of course, we tend to keep to ourselves (and you would be hard-pressed to find a Sulsa-Do, for example, visibly stomping around in the middle of the day), but that doesn't mean we've actually abandoned the kingdoms. In fact, should you ever wish to speak to a Do, I find that we're all generally quite willing to talk.

As far as registered users go, well...alright. Our head count may be a bit lower than some other paths, but it isn't a huge issue and I do not expect it to become one anytime soon. The number of walkers doesn't exactly make a subpath, in my opinion. The Do are tight-knit family and, as such, our relatively small numbers allow us to get to know one another and interact with each other on a more personal level.

I, for one, see many Do on a daily basis. tongue.gif

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 11 2010, 02:42 AM

QUOTE (Slowpoke @ Apr 11 2010, 02:09 AM) *
As far as registered users go, well...alright. Our head count may be a bit lower than some other paths, but it isn't a huge issue and I do not expect it to become one anytime soon. The number of walkers doesn't exactly make a subpath, in my opinion. The Do are tight-knit family and, as such, our relatively small numbers allow us to get to know one another and interact with each other on a more personal level.


If you had read the thread then you would know part of the reason there are seven pages is because several Do gave the same exact spiel you did, which nobody bought.

Posted by: Slowpoke Apr 11 2010, 03:31 AM

Perhaps if we're all saying the same thing...it may actually be true, heh. DarkMaverick, I do not know you, but I am going to go ahead and assume that you are not a Do. I do not hold this against you, of course, but when questions pertaining to the Do path arises, I tend to trust the opinions of those who are actually members of the path - those who actually understand our situation - over random strangers. If anyone knows where the Do have gone, it would be the Do. Try listening, for we truly have no reason to lie...

And my apologies if my earlier post seemed unnecessary to your eyes. I assumed (incorrectly, apparently) that the poster may actually be interested in my response, as a Do myself. What a fool I had been!

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 11 2010, 03:44 AM

I don't know about that.

When someone asks why the Do membership is dropping and their current members rarely log in, I think "the Do place ridiculous demands on their membership and have apathetic guides" makes a lot more sense than "The Do are a close-knit family".

And by the way, when someone has played the game for over a decade, they probably know a little something about everything, even subpaths and their history.

Posted by: blragh Apr 11 2010, 04:47 AM

there's a few subpaths what seem to be strugglin. honestly, the cause of people going subpaths is the old cliche reason they shouldn't. I seen a hot many go from every path to barbarian. its honestly ... a thing I'd have to talk about off board, if never admit or talk about.

Posted by: Yeas Apr 12 2010, 05:55 AM

Mage: 261/553
Diviner: 88/144
Geomancer: 94/250
Shaman: 79/159

Poet: 280/695
Druid: 77/222
Monk: 127/277
Muse: 76/196

Warrior: 255/480
Barbarian: 102/228
Do: 71/148
Chongun: 82/104

Rogue: 275/480
Spy: 91/143
Ranger: 90/151
Merchant: 94/186

Last time I looked Do wasn't at the bottom of the list, but it is this time. But lets compare that to Muse (by 5 members) which many would argue is one of the more active subpaths in Nexus. I'd be more concerned with Druids, never heard about anything from that path on CE, hardly ever see one, no notable members and a 77/222 ratio. Seems like that path just adds members to keep the path going.

I was surprised by the Monk number, but Barbarian definitely made sense.

Posted by: Aeriath Apr 12 2010, 10:55 PM

I want to make this a civil discussion now that this thread has calmed down some. I will be making a new topic that I hope people will have a friendly debate about their ideas to improve subpaths and role playing in the nexus community. If you are willing then lets make nexus a better place.

Posted by: MainAttraction Jul 26 2010, 01:20 AM

First figures are from Apr 12 from Yeas, next number is the change as of today

QUOTE
Mage: 261/553 -16 difference
Diviner: 88/144 93 +5
Geomancer: 94/250 78 -16 (HOLY HELL)
Shaman: 79/159 74 -5

Poet: 280/695 +2 difference
Druid: 77/222 77 0
Monk: 127/277 126 -1
Muse: 76/196 79 +3

Warrior: 255/480 -19 difference
Barbarian: 102/228 92 -10
Do: 71/148 58 -13 LOL
Chongun: 82/104 86 +4

Rogue: 275/480 -18 difference
Spy: 91/143 77 -14
Ranger: 90/151 88 -2
Merchant: 94/186 92 -2


Some subpaths have taken a huge hit over the last 4 months including the Spy, Do, Barbarian, and surprisingly Geomancer.

In total subpaths lost 51 people over the last 4 months.

Which is a 5% global loss. It might not seem like a lot but I thought it was interesting.

Posted by: darkmaverick Jul 27 2010, 04:44 PM

Obviously, they weren't true Do.

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 27 2010, 07:30 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jul 27 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Obviously, they weren't true Do.


No, actually they just felt like leaving Nexus because they don't want to play anymore.

Posted by: Musoyan Jul 27 2010, 08:50 PM

well that went right over your head..

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 27 2010, 08:58 PM

QUOTE (Musoyan @ Jul 27 2010, 06:50 PM) *
well that went right over your head..


No [Content removed] I got the joke. I was trying to add onto it... -sigh-

FAILURE

Posted by: Musoyan Jul 27 2010, 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 27 2010, 09:58 PM) *
No [Content removed] I got the joke. I was trying to add onto it... -sigh


Sure you were. No need to get defensive that many things on the forum seem to go over your head.

Anyone could have missed the sarcasm or joke in DMs post.. oh wait.. only you would.. laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 27 2010, 10:08 PM

QUOTE (Musoyan @ Jul 27 2010, 08:04 PM) *
Sure you were. No need to get defensive that many things on the forum seem to go over your head.


Oh GOD the hypocrisy meter is off the charts. That sentence is flat out YOU in a summary.

My little joke went over your head. Doesn't matter if it was funny or not, you didn't get my joke. Therefore it went over your head.

FAILURE


Posted by: Alston Jul 27 2010, 10:09 PM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 27 2010, 08:08 PM) *
Oh GOD the hypocrisy meter is off the charts.

My little joke went over your head. Doesn't matter if it was funny or not, you didn't get my joke. Therefore it went over your head.

FAILURE

Actually I didn't get your joke either. DM's came in loud and clear, though.

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 27 2010, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Alston @ Jul 27 2010, 08:09 PM) *
Actually I didn't get your joke either. DM's came in loud and clear, though.


It's OK if you don't get it. It's just a silly post I wrote in 4 seconds because I felt like it.

You don't try to stalk my posts and reply with nonsense like s/he does to make futile attempts to make you seem smarter than me.

Posted by: Alston Jul 27 2010, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 27 2010, 08:12 PM) *
It's OK if you don't get it.

You don't try to stalk my posts and reply with nonsense like s/he does to make futile attempts to make you seem smarter than me.

I don't need to. I am smarter than you.

biggrin.gif

But you could explain the joke (hell, it's ruined anyway).

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 27 2010, 10:21 PM

QUOTE (Alston @ Jul 27 2010, 08:13 PM) *
I don't need to. I am smarter than you.


That I could believe.

But Musoyen is trying to prove that s/he's smarter than me...

Which isn't going to [Content removed]ing work.

Ever.

Posted by: darkmaverick Jul 27 2010, 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 27 2010, 10:21 PM) *
That I could believe.

But Musoyen is trying to prove that s/he's smarter than me...

Which isn't going to [Content removed]ing work.

Ever.


Is that s/he insult really necessary?

I don't think you were making a joke, but it's okay if you were trying to be a smartass. It's okay to admit. I'm a smartass, too.

Posted by: Alston Jul 27 2010, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jul 27 2010, 08:28 PM) *
Is that s/he insult really necessary?

I don't think you were making a joke, but it's okay if you were trying to be a smartass. It's okay to admit. I'm a smartass, too.

Yeah, I feel insulted too.... he didn't bother putting me down. sad.gif

Heh. tongue.gif

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 27 2010, 10:32 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jul 27 2010, 08:28 PM) *
Is that s/he insult really necessary?

I don't think you were making a joke, but it's okay if you were trying to be a smartass. It's okay to admit. I'm a smartass, too.


Like I said, four second post that I didn't second think. Happens to everyone. But I did understand your post.

And the s/he thing is necessary because I have no idea if Musoyen is male or female in real life.

And yeah I was being a smartass in that joke post that nobody understood.

Being a smartass is fun, and I've always known that you had fun being a smartass.

QUOTE (Alston @ Jul 27 2010, 08:30 PM) *
Yeah, I feel insulted too.... he didn't bother putting me down. sad.gif

Heh. tongue.gif


As of now I cannot identify any character flaws that you have. Exploit them and maybe I'll insult you one day wink.gif

Posted by: Alston Jul 27 2010, 10:38 PM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 27 2010, 08:32 PM) *
As of now I cannot identify any character flaws that you have. Exploit them and maybe I'll insult you one day wink.gif

Ask Jun and Aiaya, they'll be happy to tell you.

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 27 2010, 10:43 PM

Seriously, even if I didn't get the joke, so what? It just means I didn't understand the joke. Who cares?

...Oh right... why do I even ask? -sigh-

Posted by: Adam Jul 28 2010, 03:54 AM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 27 2010, 10:43 PM) *
Seriously, even if I didn't get the joke, so what? It just means I didn't understand the joke. Who cares?

...Oh right... why do I even ask? -sigh-

Well, if you didn't get the joke, then Musoyan's post about it going "right over your head" was justified, and your response to her about you understanding DM's sarcasm would have been a lie, thus making your insults towards Musoyan not only unwarranted, but also baseless.

Posted by: Coolboyman Jul 28 2010, 05:39 PM

QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 28 2010, 01:54 AM) *
Well, if you didn't get the joke, then Musoyan's post about it going "right over your head" was justified, and your response to her about you understanding DM's sarcasm would have been a lie, thus making your insults towards Musoyan not only unwarranted, but also baseless.


Yep, except I did get the joke and made a joke of my own that she didn't get. Thus her post of "Right over your head" was hypocrisy because my joke went right over her head (and everyone elses apparently).

Anyway lets get back on topic.

Where have all the Do gone?

Or not. Because I like debating even if it's over a sentence I wrote in 4 seconds.

Posted by: Adam Jul 28 2010, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 28 2010, 04:39 PM) *
Yep, except I did get the joke and made a joke of my own that she didn't get. Thus her post of "Right over your head" was hypocrisy because my joke went right over her head (and everyone elses apparently).

Exactly, I was just explaining that it wouldn't make sense to say, "Even if I didn't get the joke...". tongue.gif

Posted by: Alston Jul 29 2010, 11:36 AM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jul 28 2010, 03:39 PM) *
Yep, except I did get the joke and made a joke of my own that she didn't get. Thus her post of "Right over your head" was hypocrisy because my joke went right over her head (and everyone elses apparently).

Anyway lets get back on topic.

Where have all the Do gone?

to go do things they like to do while they're still able to do them.

Posted by: Foxfire Jul 29 2010, 06:22 PM

QUOTE (Yeas @ Apr 12 2010, 06:55 AM) *
I'd be more concerned with Druids, never heard about anything from that path on CE, hardly ever see one, no notable members and a 77/222 ratio. Seems like that path just adds members to keep the path going.

I just want to say that I resent that remark. We're much more active now than we were three months ago and we're hosting a festival this weekend with several other paths. tongue.gif

But honestly, I don't know where all the Do have gone.. they're still pretty active though, those who are left. -shrugs-

Posted by: MainAttraction Aug 22 2010, 06:27 PM

Almost a month later, lets see whats going on in subpath land.


QUOTE
Mage: 251 -10 difference
Diviner: 93----87, -6
Geomancer: 78------70, -8 (holy crap lol)
Shaman: 74-----78, +4

Poet: 267. -12 dif
Druid: 77-----67. -10 (ROFL foxfire)
Monk: 126-----125, -1
Muse: 76--------75, -1

Warrior: 250, -5 diff
Barbarian: 92----- 80, -12 (lol)
Do: 58-------59, +1
Chongun: 86------92, +6

Rogue: 276, +1 diff
Spy: 77------80, +3
Ranger: 88------90, +2
Merchant: 92------88, -4


Those are some HUGE monthly losses for Barbarians, Druids, and Geomancers.

Thats a loss of 26 subpath characters in just under 1 month. Which is only 2.5%, but if you look at the totals from the last tabulation that's actually double the loss per month. If this keeps up we're bound to see how Stein treats the quota and subpaths just before 2011 because there will likely be 2-3 subpaths nearing that by Christmas.

Posted by: Dritz Aug 22 2010, 07:40 PM

School is going to/has started. Comparing from month to month is silly.

Posted by: darkmaverick Aug 28 2010, 05:40 PM

QUOTE (Dritz @ Aug 22 2010, 07:40 PM) *
School is going to/has started. Comparing from month to month is silly.


I don't see how that effects people staying in a subpath or remaining registered.

Posted by: Dritz Aug 28 2010, 05:48 PM

Plenty of people unregister during school. Plus there is an amazing number of people who for some reason feel the need to leave their path if they quit the game. I suppose they don't want the incentive to come back or something.

Posted by: Songa Aug 28 2010, 09:52 PM

I just wanted to comment on something written about 100 pages ago, since I just now read all of this.

As far as trials not being a necessity to join a Subpath. That's not true at all. The purpose of trials is to teach students about the path they are about to be a part of. I don't expect them to know every single tidbit about it, because let's face it, that's ridiculous. If you're a Muse student, I do expect you to know things about Muses. It just seems weird to me that I would walk someone who doesn't know why we have goats in our Circle, who Girl is, or who the Goddesses are. These things were created by legends of the Muse path, and make up most of it's roleplay. Trials, to me, are more about teaching you about our path and basically what it's roleplay is like. For example, I wouldn't expect anyone to know who Thanatos is. In fact I'm sure if you whisper some Muse walkers, they couldn't tell you the whole story! Why? It's not written in our scroll, and few people even know the real story. I only know it because I was told by a former Elder. (simply because I was curious, and weirdly I enjoy history facts.)

I also would never, ever in a million years make people go through some things that I had to go through in order to be a Muse. It's completely ridiculous to me that people actually expect you to jump through hoops in order to roleplay. I can and will always roleplay a Muse, whether I'm in that path or not. I simply enjoy the way I roleplay as Songa. And actually, when we make people do ridiculous tasks in order to get into our Subpaths, we aren't helping to improve their roleplay - we are hindering it. You can't expect people to fit into the same mold.

As someone (sorry, I forgot who!) said a while ago.. doing subpath trials is supposed to be fun.. smile.gif

Posted by: MainAttraction Sep 20 2010, 01:59 PM

Almost a month later, I'm busy on the 22nd so I thought I'd do it today since I have some free time.

QUOTE
Mage: 248 -3 difference
Diviner: 87----87, 0
Geomancer: 70------69, -1
Shaman: 78-----76, -2

Poet: 244. -23 dif
Druid: 77-----77. 0
Monk: 125----114, -11 (WOW, this is the first real loss for the Monk)
Muse: 75--------63, -12 (WOW)

Warrior: 235, -15 diff
Barbarian: 80-----78, -2
Do: 59------54, -5 (CRUCIAL QUOTA LOL)
Chongun: 92-----84, -8 (decent loss)

Rogue: 276, +1 diff
Spy: 80----76, -4
Ranger: 90------80, -10
Merchant: 88------93, +5



-40 Subpath member loss for this month. It's also interesting that this is titled where have the Do gone, as they're right on the cusp of being under the quote (it's possible they actually are if they 4 alt Do's. To me this is the most exciting thing to happen to Nexus in years because we'll finally see what happens to a Subpath that dips under (and presuming we're at the max population Nexus can achieve under this ownership) will they abolish the path? Put a new Elder in? Make it NPC like was threatened? Cool stuff.

Posted by: Kensi Sep 20 2010, 09:53 PM

Where have all the Do gone?

TO THE DUBSTEP!
(whomp, whomp, whomp)

biggrin.gif

Posted by: darkmaverick Sep 20 2010, 11:22 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Sep 20 2010, 01:59 PM) *
-40 Subpath member loss for this month. It's also interesting that this is titled where have the Do gone, as they're right on the cusp of being under the quote (it's possible they actually are if they 4 alt Do's. To me this is the most exciting thing to happen to Nexus in years because we'll finally see what happens to a Subpath that dips under (and presuming we're at the max population Nexus can achieve under this ownership) will they abolish the path? Put a new Elder in? Make it NPC like was threatened? Cool stuff.


They haven't updated the cash shop in two months. At this point I doubt they care if a path goes under quota.

Posted by: MainAttraction Nov 1 2010, 08:07 PM

QUOTE
Mage: 235 -13 difference
Diviner: 87----86, -1
Geomancer: 69------67, -2
Shaman: 76-----66, -10

Poet: 248. +4 dif
Druid: 77-----71. -6
Monk: 114----122, +8
Muse: 63--------65, +2

Warrior: 241, +6 diff
Barbarian: 78-----84, +6
Do: 54------64, +10
Chongun: 84-----74, -10

Rogue: 261, -15 diff
Spy: 76----77, +1
Ranger: 80------79, -1
Merchant: 93------78, -15


So in a little over a month we're seeing some big losses again. 4 Subpaths are now in the 60's as opposed to 2 on September 20th. It's not surprising and not even really news but I think its interesting to follow. It should also be noted that the big gainer the Do had attained this through uhh "free walks"-- It's apparent that the current subpath system won't house the foreign demographics need, and it wouldn't surprise me that by Next month we see more than a -18 difference (approx 2% of the subpath totals) in total and half of the subpaths in the 60's (I see the Chongun and Druid falling according to recent stats) and it wouldn't surprise me to see someone such as the Do or possibly the Shaman in the 50's.


Posted by: darkmaverick Nov 1 2010, 11:17 PM

It's not surprising.

The subpaths and clans continue to act as separate entities and don't co-operate to engineer player ran events that the community actually gives two [Content removed]s about, and KRU continues to refuse to update the game mechanics to make it a competitive product in today's market.

I think people are continuing to log in and socialize with their small group of friends more out of habit than because they actually care about the game. But the number of people who are able to break the habit is rising.

Posted by: Foxfire Nov 2 2010, 05:24 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Nov 2 2010, 12:17 AM) *
The subpaths and clans continue to act as separate entities and don't co-operate to engineer player ran events that the community actually gives two [Content removed]s about, and KRU continues to refuse to update the game mechanics to make it a competitive product in today's market.


Unless I'm horribly off my mark at comprehending what you meant by that statement.. I'd like to say that we druids had two very succesful, community-involved festivals in the last few months and plenty of subpaths volunteered to host a game with us during them. The Do, the Geomancers, the Barbarians, the Shaman, the Merchants, the Rangers, the Monks, even the Spies.. sooo..

Posted by: darkmaverick Nov 3 2010, 05:08 AM

QUOTE (Foxfire @ Nov 2 2010, 05:24 PM) *
Unless I'm horribly off my mark at comprehending what you meant by that statement.. I'd like to say that we druids had two very succesful, community-involved festivals in the last few months and plenty of subpaths volunteered to host a game with us during them. The Do, the Geomancers, the Barbarians, the Shaman, the Merchants, the Rangers, the Monks, even the Spies.. sooo..


Carnivals cannot save Nexus.

There is a reason that every story must have conflict. When it comes to roleplaying games, the conflict must be something the players (i.e. community) can actually engage in rather than simply watch.

Behind the scenes, subpaths should co-operate but the public face should be conflict between groups. As I said in another thread the Druid path was vastly more interesting when they were constantly engaged in conflict with the Shamans. The same goes for Chonguns Vs. Barbarians, Spies Vs. KRA, KRA Vs. BIA, Sun Moon Vs. Dharma, Forsaken Vs. The Legion, Muse Vs. Shaman, etc

This game used to be interesting. It's gotten boring after everyone decided to start holding hands or adapt the absolutely retarded ideology of "neutrality" so nothing truly interesting ever happened beyond sitting in the Circle talking about stupid crap until someone does something to put the path into a panic, usually over something relatively insignificant like a subpath item being sold or offensive post written about the path. Things that, on the whole, doesn't actually change anything but people treat like a dire emergency because so little happens they jump at the first minor thing they can jump at.

This isn't a matter of opinion. It's an absolute fact that good storytelling requires conflict and good game storytelling requires interactive conflict. Even the Care Bears of the game want conflict which is why they're always posting something conflict related on the CotW board; maybe they aren't instigating but they sure do respond to it. Hell, you're responding to something I said that you disliked.

To contrast and compare, the Do PVP events were vastly more popular than the Way of Peace lectures. Why? One had interactive conflict and the other didn't, that's why.

Same goes for Chongun Battle of the Sonbae / Musadan versus damn near every other event Chongun have held, with the exception of the Chongun Vs Barb battles which were so popular half the community went to Vale to watch them, place bets, and even try to interrupt (and consequently some guarded against those trying to interrupt the event).

People remember the Muse Vs. Shaman, Shaman Vs. Druid and Sun Moon Vs. Dharma events fondly. Yet many other more recent events by these organizations have faded from their memory.

There is a reason NexusAtlas doesn't report on events that lack conflict, or at least they always report on events with conflict while others may be overlooked (especially the carnival booth stuff). They're boring to the community at large and only of interest to the people who run them. They contribute to the death of the game.

Posted by: WereWulf Nov 3 2010, 07:26 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Nov 3 2010, 06:08 AM) *
Carnivals cannot save Nexus.

There is a reason that every story must have conflict. When it comes to roleplaying games, the conflict must be something the players (i.e. community) can actually engage in rather than simply watch.

Behind the scenes, subpaths should co-operate but the public face should be conflict between groups. As I said in another thread the Druid path was vastly more interesting when they were constantly engaged in conflict with the Shamans. The same goes for Chonguns Vs. Barbarians, Spies Vs. KRA, KRA Vs. BIA, Sun Moon Vs. Dharma, Forsaken Vs. The Legion, Muse Vs. Shaman, etc

This game used to be interesting. It's gotten boring after everyone decided to start holding hands or adapt the absolutely retarded ideology of "neutrality" so nothing truly interesting ever happened beyond sitting in the Circle talking about stupid crap until someone does something to put the path into a panic, usually over something relatively insignificant like a subpath item being sold or offensive post written about the path.


100% True. All the events today are just quick 1hr "gimme" points for another useless tile in clans/subpaths. *cough* Why Nagnang should have never become a care bear member in our tri-kingdom state. It would of been really great to allow clans and subpaths (option to move) in a hostile nation. But that will never happen, DM is absolutely right. I will now insert a sad.gif

Posted by: MainAttraction Nov 3 2010, 01:56 PM

Good points DM and the worst part is most people in nexus with power don't even realize it, or worse, fear change. They think the same old crap they've been doing for years is working, so why fix it? A great example is "the burning of the chongun creed" crap that would lead to the Shaman v Chongun war which because people couldn't handle it lead to that huge mess.

I know there rp's were muddied but in all honesty nowadays what seperates a Barb, Chongy, and Do?

Posted by: Kensi Nov 3 2010, 04:18 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Nov 3 2010, 01:56 PM) *
...I know there rp's were muddied but in all honesty nowadays what seperates a Barb, Chongy, and Do?



Far, far less than one would think. smile.gif

Posted by: YanDaMan Nov 3 2010, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Nov 3 2010, 02:56 PM) *
I know there rp's were muddied but in all honesty nowadays what seperates a Barb, Chongy, and Do?


Barbs still hasn't evolved beyond "Trash royal palace floor with random junk" RP.
Chonguns are now the next hot controversy topic cause of what Liadriel did.
Do dont exist cause you hear squat from them.

The end.

Posted by: MainAttraction Nov 3 2010, 06:23 PM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Nov 3 2010, 05:18 PM) *
Far, far less than one would think. smile.gif


My point exactly.

Posted by: MainAttraction Dec 1 2010, 09:17 PM

Mage: 235 -13 difference
Diviner: 86----80, -6
Geomancer: 67------79, +12
Shaman: 66-----57, -9 (thats -19 over 2 months)

Poet: 248. +4 dif
Druid: 71-----66. -5 (-11 over 2 months)
Monk: 122----121, -1
Muse: 65--------67, +2

Warrior: 241, +6 diff
Barbarian: 84-----79, -5
Do: 64------62, -2
Chongun: 74-----84, +10

Rogue: 261, -15 diff
Spy: 77----84, +7
Ranger: 79------84, +5
Merchant: 78------78, 0


+18 new subpath members-- first month in a long long time for subpath to have positive gains. Looks like the Shamans are losing big though.


Posted by: Destyn Dec 3 2010, 10:37 AM

QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Dec 1 2010, 09:17 PM) *
Mage: 235 -13 difference
Diviner: 86----80, -6
Geomancer: 67------79, +12
Shaman: 66-----57, -9 (thats -19 over 2 months)

Poet: 248. +4 dif
Druid: 71-----66. -5 (-11 over 2 months)
Monk: 122----121, -1
Muse: 65--------67, +2

Warrior: 241, +6 diff
Barbarian: 84-----79, -5
Do: 64------62, -2
Chongun: 74-----84, +10

Rogue: 261, -15 diff
Spy: 77----84, +7
Ranger: 79------84, +5
Merchant: 78------78, 0


+18 new subpath members-- first month in a long long time for subpath to have positive gains. Looks like the Shamans are losing big though.


What dates do these numbers look at?

Posted by: MainAttraction Dec 3 2010, 03:17 PM

nov1 and dec1 (I didn't retally the mage, poet, war, rogue totals though so don't take those for fact). I just come back to this thread copy and paste the old totals then input the new ones, if you look back you'll see numbers going back quite a few months to April.

Posted by: Coolboyman Dec 5 2010, 05:30 PM

Here's going by list Yeas made in April.


Mage: 235 -26 difference
Diviner: 88----80, -8
Geomancer: 94------79, -15
Shaman: 79-----57, -22

Poet: 248. -32 dif
Druid: 77-----66. -11
Monk: 127----121, -6
Muse: 76--------67, -9

Warrior: 241, -14 diff
Barbarian: 102-----79, -23
Do: 71------62, -9
Chongun: 82-----84, +2

Rogue: 261, -14 diff
Spy: 91---84, -14
Ranger: 90------84, -6
Merchant: 94------78, -16

Total subpath loss since April: 137

Posted by: Yeas Dec 5 2010, 11:28 PM

Seeing the actual numbers are a little concerning.

Still have to consider the obvious:

1.) Many of these characters are also bank characters
2.) One account unregistering could lead to multiples for in the same-subpath (or retiring a bank account)
3.) Likewise, one player leaving could effect 4 different paths. (if not more, some people have 2-3 accounts)
4.) Doesn't necessarily mean those people are leaving game, as they could be transitioning to another path or NPC.

But the loses being shown are still real enough that we will be likely to see pre-quota numbers soon but without the community numbers.

Posted by: MainAttraction Dec 6 2010, 12:05 AM

It would be awesome if Elders would post or give their data to someone like the stataddicts so this could be tracked more effectivley by accounts. For those that don't know every day, the elder of a path is nmailed the path numbers both members and accounts. Most paths do have a few "extra" alts, the number wasn't as high as you might think especially with the new Kru Banks, but I'd still estimate the alt count to be anywhere from 2-7 per path right now.

Posted by: SilentS Dec 6 2010, 12:19 AM

Actually, when I last got that report a year ago, very few paths had any extras from the same account. Maybe 3 or 4 paths. Even then those paths hardly had many added to them. I think one had 3, Chongun had 2, and the rest were 1 extra. *shrugs* If that trend is still correct or not, beats me. However that was how it was for a while when I got those reports.

Posted by: darkmaverick Dec 6 2010, 10:38 PM

Because people tell everyone who their alts are, Mr. "I-Have-A-Second-Chongun-No-One-Else-Knows-About-So-I-Can-Spy-On-Others-In-The-Circle"

As if you were the only one whose ever had that idea

rolleyes.gif

Posted by: SilentS Dec 7 2010, 01:07 AM

What the hell you babbling about this time? You are spewing crap again that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. That post was in reply to the fact that Elders get a Nmail every morning from the server on their quota numbers, as well as how they were when I ~last~ got them.

Besides, not like it even matters to you since you will still try to pick a fight over it, but virtually everybody in the path already knows who my bank alt is. That has never been a secret. Nor was it even remotely an issue in this entire forums.

Posted by: darkmaverick Dec 7 2010, 07:13 AM

Oh give me a break. You bragged about having a secret Chongun character no one knew was you back when we had our major falling out and that you specifically used that character to sit in the Circle and listen to people. If you still do it or not, I really don't care anymore but it's still relevant since the discussion is now about how common it is for one person to have multiple characters in the same subpath.

As for the relevance, you're trying to suggest alts don't make up a substantial portion of the subpath numbers. I found that a little silly since, if I had understood you correctly, you had three Chonguns yourself.

When we're dealing with less than 100 people in a subpath, the number of alts can actually be a rather substantial makeup of the path.

Let's say, as you claim, 3 people have alts. How many alts do they have? 1? If it's a subpath of 84 (such as Chonguns), then that's almost 4% of the path. If they each have 2? That means they make up 7% of the path. You see where I'm going with this? 3 people can make up almost 10% of a subpath.

But I doubt it's just 3 people, especially with the subpath culture as it is-- people thinking having alts in helps keep them with quota, or using the alt to spy on others (such as aspirants or their enemies, or whatever), those who made them to be player-ran event characters or maybe they are just trying to increase their chances of becoming Guides / Elder, whatever...... I try not to go too far down the rabbit hole putting myself in the shoes of people who engage in that kind of nonsense, but if I really try I bet I could come up with a hundred reasons.

There are Walkers, Guides and Elders who, over the years, have added alts from secondary accounts to their paths. The reasons vary. The point is they exist and are unlikely to be detected by some server script.

And it's a lot more believable than thinking everyone in a subpath has a Warrior, Rogue, Poet and Mage on their account who belong to a subpath. Which the data could suggest but I think is rather unlikely to be true. Making an average out of subpathers by base class, that would mean there are 246 players who have subpath characters. That -might- be consistent with the average active number of players for the entire game (if assuming subpathers are the most "loyal" and less likely to abandon the game, so they make up the majority now) but the top 1,000 list indicates a much larger portion of the active playerbase have NPC characters, so you can toss that theory (that everyone in a subpath has 4 characters of different base classes in a subpath) out. But the numbers have to come from somewhere, so coming from subpathers with multiple alts in one subpath makes a lot more sense.

Math doesn't lie. People do. I can't figure out how many subpathers have multiples in the same subpath but I'll bet it's more than you are claiming.

Posted by: Destyn Dec 7 2010, 09:38 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Dec 7 2010, 07:13 AM) *
Oh give me a break. You bragged about having a secret Chongun character no one knew was you back when we had our major falling out and that you specifically used that character to sit in the Circle and listen to people. If you still do it or not, I really don't care anymore but it's still relevant since the discussion is now about how common it was for one person to have multiple characters in the same subpath.


Fixed. biggrin.gif

People don't really care enough to make super ultra secret alts to snoop on others in the path. That's already relatively easy as it is, without having to make alts.

Posted by: MainAttraction Dec 7 2010, 05:43 PM

Well DM does have a point about alts, and it probably is still true. But what I was getting at is the quota from atleast when I played was 50 accounts per subpath. And as such the difference of Accounts to Members wasn't that high, but as DM has pointed out there are other reasons and means to have multiple characters on different accounts and while I am sure it burned me personally back in the day I can't really blame people for being that into the social structure of the game that they think they need multiple accounts to succeed in that way. I mean I did have an alt (on the same account) in the same subpath I was in, but that wasn;t for political gains or anything, it was for Adventures carnage and the benefits of the subpath spells LOL.

Posted by: Dritz Dec 8 2010, 03:18 AM

That takes some serious dedication to get a second account just to put em in a specific path. I really can't see it being all that common specially since there isn't much of a quota anymore.

As much as I think these charts you guys have been pointless are largely meaningless, I would like to say that Chongun increased by a whole 2 while everyone else fell huzzah! Of course we were already really low so sad.gif.

By the way if anyone is interested there are semi-indepth numbers on the Chongun http://www.nexusbio.org/chongun/scripts/find.php?ajax=false&find=stats/activity. Nothing on accounts/path or anything like that though. I think Berig's site has some stuff as well but I'm to lazy to check.

Posted by: darkmaverick Dec 8 2010, 04:08 AM

QUOTE (Dritz @ Dec 8 2010, 03:18 AM) *
That takes some serious dedication to get a second account just to put em in a specific path. I really can't see it being all that common specially since there isn't much of a quota anymore.


"Common" is relative to a population. If the pool size is already very small, what is "uncommon" can still represent a significant portion of the members.

Example: A subpath of 100 has 30 members who fall under some category the other 70 do not. The number 30 by itself doesn't seem like a lot, but when compared to the total number of members it shows that 30% of the members fall in that category; which is a pretty significant chunk.

Posted by: Yeas Dec 8 2010, 06:24 AM

Theres many reasons people would have multiple characters in the same path. The most notable ones I can remember did it to improve the image of their main, and to further their own goals within the path.

After that, they usually sit in the circle listening for any mention of themselves.

Don't over-estimate the average person who wants to be guide.

Posted by: Dritz Dec 8 2010, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Dec 8 2010, 02:08 AM) *
"Common" is relative to a population. If the pool size is already very small, what is "uncommon" can still represent a significant portion of the members.

Example: A subpath of 100 has 30 members who fall under some category the other 70 do not. The number 30 by itself doesn't seem like a lot, but when compared to the total number of members it shows that 30% of the members fall in that category; which is a pretty significant chunk.


Ah hah! But you forgot to factor in the fact you appear to be pulling that number out of your [Content removed] and it doesn't have much to do with the accounts/path question. To be clear we are talking about accounts/path? Maybe if it was simply alts/path I could see something like that. Maybe.

Posted by: darkmaverick Dec 8 2010, 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Dritz @ Dec 8 2010, 12:55 PM) *
Ah hah! But you forgot to factor in the fact you appear to be pulling that number out of your [Content removed] and it doesn't have much to do with the accounts/path question. To be clear we are talking about accounts/path? Maybe if it was simply alts/path I could see something like that. Maybe.


I already did an example using Chongun's current numbers. The other subpaths aren't much better. We are dealing with very small populations, not large ones. A handful of people does make up a large portion of the group. That's not opinion, it's fact.

I don't know how many people have alts in their subpaths or how many use secondary accounts. From experience, I know secondary accounts are not uncommon. I would assume that now that the population consists almost entirely of the most addicted players who won't quit the game even if KRU announced they eat babies for lunch, a significant portion of the current subscribers have secondary accounts. But impossible to know for certain how many because we don't have the necessary information.

The point is that even a small number of individuals who engage in that activity represents a large portion of the current subscribers because there aren't that many subscribers to begin with.

Posted by: MainAttraction Dec 9 2010, 05:32 PM

bombobmbobmbombobmobmbombobmbombom,

In a world of lies and deceit, political espionage, vendettas and nexus... one man tries to fight it all...

from Warner Brothers Picture studio...


DARKMAVERICK IS...

CONSPIRACY THEORY

Posted by: Adam Dec 9 2010, 08:28 PM

"I'd watch that."
"Yeah, seems like it'd be pretty good."

Posted by: Coolboyman Jan 18 2011, 08:35 PM

1 1/2 Months Later:

Diviner: 80 +0
Geomancer: 74 -5
Shaman: 68 + 11

Druid: 72 +6
Monk: 126 +5
Muse: 73 +6

Barbarian: 91 +12
Do: 70 +8
Chongun: 96 +12

Spy: 81 -3
Ranger: 78 -6
Merchant: 89 +11

Total gained since 12/1/10: +57

Nexus is... gaining players...? What kind on sense does that make?

Posted by: darkmaverick Jan 18 2011, 09:02 PM

They probably aren't new players, just alts of the same people who have been playing for over a decade. Or people changing from NPC to PC, which is the more likely explanation.

Posted by: Yeas Jan 19 2011, 02:44 AM

Santa Mhul would be the best explanation.

Posted by: SetYu Jan 27 2011, 04:09 AM

QUOTE (Coolboyman @ Jan 18 2011, 07:35 PM) *
Nexus is... gaining players...? What kind on sense does that make?


I somewhat agree with Yeas, but I don't think that all those people making Santa M'hul alts would decide to join a subpath.

Posted by: Coolboyman Jan 28 2011, 03:19 AM

QUOTE (SetYu @ Jan 27 2011, 01:09 AM) *
I somewhat agree with Yeas, but I don't think that all those people making Santa M'hul alts would decide to join a subpath.


Yeah that's probably it. It's been a month since Santa Mhul and the numbers are dropping.

Diviner: 78 -2
Geomancer: 71 -3
Shaman: 66 -2

Druid: 68 -4
Monk: 122 -4
Muse: 71 -2

Barbarian: 88 -3
Do: 72 +2
Chongun: 92 -4

Spy: 82 +1
Ranger: 75 -3
Merchant: 80 -9

Total since 1/18/11: -33
That's a pretty big loss for only 9 days.
Total since 12/1/10: +24

Posted by: WereWulf Mar 31 2011, 11:57 AM

I was bored today and checked the SP list... topic revival! The Do have gone missing again tongue.gif

" Total registered : 59 Total unregistered : 167


Last updated : Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:36:13 AM "


I don't blame them there aren't any good updates anymore.

Posted by: Kensi Mar 31 2011, 03:08 PM

Bollocks, we're not missing! biggrin.gif

We're right where we need to be, and all of that. wink.gif

Posted by: Yeas Mar 31 2011, 07:24 PM

Diviner: 75 -3
Geomancer: 78 +7
Shaman: 63 -3

Druid: 73 +5
Monk: 115 -7
Muse: 82 +11

Barbarian: 86 -2
Do: 60 -12
Chongun: 91 -1

Spy: 92 +10
Ranger: 79 +4
Merchant: 70 -10 (loss of -19 over last 2 recordings)

Total since 1/18/11: -33
Total since 12/1/10: +24
Total since 4/1/11: -1

Merchant and Do are definitely the big losers this time, however Merchant has been leading the pack for last two recording periods. Shaman numbers are very low, only the massive Do drop that really saved them from being last. Overall, the Warrior paths are the ones with the greatest loses but that should be expected as the NPC alternative is the most viable.

All that being said -1 isn't a bad number. People switch paths or give up on them on a regular basis so does this suggest a general stability in the Nexus population or have we gone as low as the numbers are going to go?


Posted by: Yeas Mar 31 2011, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (Kensi @ Mar 31 2011, 03:08 PM) *
Bollocks, we're not missing! biggrin.gif

We're right where we need to be, and all of that. wink.gif


17% loss of population is "missing" enough =P

Posted by: Coolboyman Nov 28 2011, 01:26 PM

Thought I'd revisit this.

Diviner: 75 +0
Geomancer: 64 -14
Shaman: 64 +1
Change: -13

Druid: 74 +1
Monk: 129 +14
Muse: 84 +2
Change: +17

Barbarian: 74 -12
Do: 61 +1
Chongun: 70 -21
Change: -32

Spy: 80 -12
Ranger: 69 -10
Merchant: 86 +14
Change: -8

Change since last post: -36

Posted by: Yeas Mar 3 2012, 04:32 PM

Diviner: 74 (-1)
Geomancer: 62 (-2)
Shaman: 66 (+2)
Change: -1

Druid: 67 (-7)
Monk: 129 (0)
Muse: 79 (-5)
Change: -12

Barbarian: 65 (-9)
Do: 57 (-4)
Chongun: 77 (+7)
Change: -6

Spy: 68 (-12)
Ranger: 81 (+12)
Merchant: 81 (-5)
Change: -5

Change since last post: - 24

Not sure why I did this, but Subpath population is fairly steady. Poets had a big change for once and mages held pretty even. In general, the mage subpaths are all fairly low but Do is the lowest by a good margin.

What does all this mean?

Basically nothing haha.

Posted by: Coolboyman May 1 2012, 02:03 PM

Time for this again, I guess.

Diviner: 78 (+4)
Geomancer: 73 (+11)
Shaman: 71 (+5)
Change: +19

Druid: 81 (+14)
Monk: 136 (+7)
Muse: 100 (+21)
Change: +42

Barbarian: 73 (+8)
Do: 61 (+4)
Chongun: 81 (+4)
Change: +16

Spy: 76 (+8)
Ranger: 72 (-9)
Merchant: 91 (+10)
Change: +9

Change since last post: 86

I think we all know why this is happening.

Posted by: NirvanaMan Feb 9 2013, 11:20 PM

I'd like to jump on the band wagon haha

Diviner: 64 (-14)
Geomancer: 53 (-20)
Shaman: 61 (-10)
Change: -44

Druid: 64 (-17)
Monk: 117 (-19)
Muse: 74 (-26)
Change: -62

Barbarian: 67 (-6)
Do: 52 (-9)
Chongun: 67 (-14)
Change: -29

Spy: 84 (+8)
Ranger: 62 (-10)
Merchant: 77 (-14)
Change: -16

Change since last post: -151

Of course it has been 9 months since last post but wow that is very troubling but not unexpected
I really miss the days when I first started playing

Posted by: Xing-Yu Seong Apr 17 2013, 02:21 AM

Going to post some more variables into this,
Active Subpath Population (ASP): Registered AND active PC subpath players in past 29 days.
Subpath Activity Ratio (SAR): Total ASP to PC Subpath Population.



Diviner: 57 (-7), ASP: 2, SAR: 3.5%
Geomancer: 49 (-4), ASP: 6, SAR: 12.2%
Shaman: 51 (-10), ASP: 6, SAR: 11.8%
Change: -21, Total Pop: 157,
Total ASP: 14, Total SAR: 9.17%

Druid: 64 (0), ASP: 4, SAR: 6.25%
Monk: 107 (-10), ASP: 5, SAR: 4.7%
Muse: 73 (-1), ASP: 6, SAR: 8.2%
Change: -11, Total Pop: 244
Total ASP: 15, Total SAR: 6.4%

Barbarian: 67 (0), ASP: 2, SAR: 2.9%
Do: 61 (+9), ASP: 4, SAR: 6.6%
Chongun: 67 (0), ASP: 8, SAR: 11.9%
Change: +9, Total Pop: 195,
Total ASP: 14 Total SAR: 7.1%

Spy: 79 (-5), ASP: 9, SAR: 11.3%
Ranger: 64 (+2), ASP: 8, SAR: 12.5%
Merchant: 77 (0), ASP: 8, SAR: 10.3%
Change: -3, Total Pop: 220
Total SPA: 25, Total SAR: 11.37%

Change since last post: -26
Total Subpath Population: 816
Total Active Subpath Population: 68
Total Subpath Activity: 8.5%

Stats gathered from KRU Player List, Last updated : Wednesday, April 17, 2013

Posted by: Berig May 21 2013, 11:52 AM

This was a project I was working on a while back, but it seems relevant to this thread. The actual graph wasn't designed to hold all of the rows, but it can still be read. There are 4 charts, "Added" "Removed" "Registered" "Unregistered" (if there are missing gaps, clicking should make the chart show up).

http://www.bodhisanctum.com/charts/spcharts.php?p=do

Posted by: Yeas May 22 2013, 05:14 PM

Looking at any subpath list is frightening ... For example Shaman: 51/148 Registered and of that 51, only 30 actives (green). Most concerning is 5 guides and 2 unregged, 1 of which is a yellow.

Funniest part, you can log on today and the subpaths basically haven't changed at all since the day they were founded over a decade ago. No evolution no change. I'd say when we look back, the decline of Nexus has as much to do with the failed leadership of certain players as anyone on the GM side.

[insert reply from someone saying GMs hamstringed any attempt to improve]

Posted by: Mrdie Feb 25 2018, 10:07 AM

How are things nowadays?

Posted by: Michike Oct 10 2018, 09:07 AM

Diviner: 67 (+10)
Geomancer: 72 (+23)
Shaman: 55 (+4)
Change: +37, Total Pop: 194


Druid: 48 (-16)
Monk: 84 (-23)
Muse: 76 (+3)
Change: -36, Total Pop: 208


Barbarian: 83 (+16)
Do: 49 (-12)
Chongun: 57 (-10)
Change: -6, Total Pop: 189

Spi: 101 (+22)
Ranger: 69 (+5)
Merchant: 76 (-1)
Change: +26, Total Pop: 246

Change since last post: +21
Total Subpath Population: 837

Stats gathered today on userlists.
No real change over 5 years. The only thing you can notice is that players moved to base paths which allow for solo PvE.

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