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> Merchants new engravement symbols., write your opinion on it.
linuxkiddy
post Sep 3 2016, 02:01 PM
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The merchant guild of koguryo has recently had their engrave spell updated with new options to engrave your items. Whats your opinion on them and the price structure they've made.
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Conro
post Sep 3 2016, 04:48 PM
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Should probably include what it is so we can actually read it lol


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linuxkiddy
post Sep 3 2016, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Conro @ Sep 3 2016, 05:48 PM) *
Should probably include what it is so we can actually read it lol


Its posted in game.
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Ouned
post Sep 3 2016, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (linuxkiddy @ Sep 3 2016, 07:59 PM) *
Its posted in game.


I think a large portion of your forum users are not actively registered. By not including the updated price information in either the news post or the forum subject, you are intentionally marginalizing these people and not being good journalists.
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SilentS
post Sep 3 2016, 09:21 PM
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Here are the four posts on the board since nobody else wanted to do it. Spacing sucks due to the forum settings and I am to lazy to deal with it anymore than what I have.

QUOTE
(Updated: 9/2/2016)

<b> ---------------------------------------------------------
<b> Unique Engrave Information
<b> ---------------------------------------------------------

The Unique Engravement is an engravement that is
completely one-of-a-kind, never again to be duplicated
by any member of the community in the future.

Unique engravements offer exclusivity as well as
protection. Once an engravement is made "unique," it
cannot be unengraved by anyone other than the original
creator of the unique. It is completely exclusive to
you. Adding this level of security to an item makes it
extremely difficult to steal. If in the event that your
unique engravement was ever stolen, it would never be
un-engraved, making it impossible to sell.

Once created, your unique engravement along with your
name will be added to our list on the board located in
the Kugnae Gathering.

The fee to make your engravement a unique engravement
is 350,000 coins. Unique engravements can be applied
to current or newly created engravements. The fee for
"set" engraves are 2x the normal amount of your total
engrave request plus a 10% discount. Any guide of the
Merchant Guild can make an engravement unique for you.

If you decide to transfer ownership of a uniquely
engraved item, we ask that you notify a guide of the
Merchant Guild. A fee of 100,000 coins will be charged
in order to transfer the unique ownership. If you do
not wish to transfer ownership of the unique name,
than it will be removed from the list of unique
engraves.

If you are interested in obtaining a unique engravement,
please contact any Merchant Guide.

QUOTE
(Updated: 9/2/16)

<b> ---------------------------------------------------------
<b> Unengrave Policy
<b> ---------------------------------------------------------

The Merchant path provides unengrave services based on
the following guidelines:

- The Merchant Guild reserves the right to refuse a
request if there is a chance that the item being
unengraved was stolen.

- The Merchant Guild reserves the right to perform a
thorough background check before filling any unengrave
request. This may take up to ((2 weeks)).

- The Merchant Guild reserves the right to verify the
ownership of the item before filling any unengrave
request. This will be doubly enforced for extremely
rare and expensive items. We recommend that such
items be uniquely engraved in order to make the
verification of ownership easier.

- The Merchant Guild reserves the right to inform the
owner of any unique engrave of your attempt to
have an item bearing its name unengraved.

- Any person who requests an unengrave of a uniquely
engraved item will relinquish ownership of that
unique engrave.

- If you sell a uniquely engraved item, you relinquish
your ownership of that engrave, and it will be
removed from the list of unique engraves.

<b> ---------------------------------------------------------
<b> Unengrave Instructions
<b> ---------------------------------------------------------

Contact any Merchant Guide for an unengrave.

Simply hand the item to be unengraved to a Merchant Guide
who has offered to perform the service for you and they
will remove the engrave.

The fee for our unengraving service is 100,000 coins.

If you have any questions please feel free to contact any
Merchant Guide.

QUOTE
(Updated: 9/2/16)

<b> ---------------------------------------------------------
<b> Engrave Policy
<b> ---------------------------------------------------------

The Merchant path provides engrave services based on
the following guidelines:

- Engrave requests must adhere to all kingdom laws.

- All engrave requests must be in character.

- Engrave requests are limited to 32 characters.

- Engrave requests may not contain question marks (?).

- Engrave requests may be denied at the discretion of
the Guide who is performing the service.

- Any item that can be equipped may be engraved.

<b> ---------------------------------------------------------
<b> Engrave Pricing
<b> ---------------------------------------------------------

<b> Request Type Price
Roleplay/Story Engrave: Guide discretion
Traditional Engrave (** Example **): 300,000 Coins
Etched Engrave (|| Example ||): 500,000 Coins
Diamond-cut Engrave (<> Example <>): 750,000 Coins

UNIQUE Traditional Engrave: +300,000 Coins
UNIQUE Etched Engrave: +300,000 Coins
UNIQUE Diamond-cut Engrave: +250,000 Coins

Set engravings of any style: 10% Discount
Unengrave: 100,000 Coins

Note: Pricing on restricted engraves varies. Contact
the current Merchant Elder for details.

<b> ---------------------------------------------------------
<b> Engrave Instructions
<b> ---------------------------------------------------------

You may contact any Merchant Guide, or the current
merchant elder, with your request. Requests may be made
in person or by n-mail.

When requesting an engrave please check to confirm that
it is not unique or restricted. You can find these lists
on our website at www.merchantguildtk.com.

Please be prepared with the correct engrave fee when you
meet with the Guide who has offered to fill your engrave
request.

Place the item that you wish to be engraved at the top
of your bag (( inventory slot a )) so that the Guide
filling your request can work on it.

<b> ---------------------------------------------------------
<b> Engrave Restrictions
<b> ---------------------------------------------------------

Some subpaths place restrictions on subpath item engrave
requests. Please check with your path before engraving
subpath items to be sure that no path rules are being
violated.

Subpath Elders may contact the current Merchant Elder if
they would like the Merchant Guild to provide details on
this post of any restrictions that exist for their path
items.

QUOTE
Dear Community members,

Thank you for your patience during our engrave suspension period. It was necessary that we be absolutely sure that our new tools work as intended. We strive to deliver the highest quality and professionalism in all of our work and we are pleased to offer our new services to you all.

We expect that you will be rather pleased as well since our new services offer a myriad of "set" possibilities. Our projects for demand on ASCII-type set engravings are high. These new styles are something that our path and community as a whole have been anticipating for a long time. Here are some examples:

4-Set: 6-Set: 8-Set:
<> Carat <> . . . . .|| 0\000/0 || . . . . <> .XXXXX. <>
<> Cut <> . . . . . . || 00\0/00 || . . . . <> X'X:X'X <>
<> Clarity <>. . . . || 000|000 || . . . . .|| XX'X'NX <>
<> Color <>. . . . . || 000|000 || . . . . ** XXo.oXX <>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|| 00/0\00 || . . . . .** XX'''XX <>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|| 0/000\0 || . . . . .|| X'X:X'X <>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .<> X|X:X|X <>
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .<> X.XXX.X <>

The ASCII set can be whatever you want to create. These are just examples. All engraves will be distrbuted on a first-come, first-serve basis. Since we expect demand to be high, we also offer over-night engraving services and request only that you cover the parcel fee. The engraved item will be in your mailbox when you wake up the next morning. Or if the parcel fee is too high, we'll simply hand it to you on the next day.

The engrave policy has been updated and can be found on our board located in the Kugnae Gathering. Our prices have also been adjusted to reflect the current market's value. Our pricing, for the most part of at least ((10 years)), has not been updated. The guide circle deliberated for days on the new price schedule and came to a conclusion that would be fair for today's market, all environmental factors included.

Any guide can perform an engrave for you. If you have any questions about our new engrave styles or policy, please do not hesitate to send all messages directly to me or any guide via n-mail. We'll get back to you as quickly as we can!

Effective immediately, 10:00 PM EST 9/2/16, all engrave services are officially open for business.

Signed,

Acera
Merchant Elder


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Musoyan
post Sep 3 2016, 10:04 PM
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people in this game sure love bureaucracy
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Qwertyer
post Sep 11 2016, 05:32 PM
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Item engraves should be done through an NPC.
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darkmaverick
post Sep 11 2016, 05:42 PM
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Hey come on, it's totally roleplaying for a path to have a special unique ability nobody else has and that can make the subpath member incredibly wealthy for doing virtually nothing.

Adding a couple squiggly lines to the name of an item should definitely cost 500,000 gold coins.


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Qwertyer
post Sep 11 2016, 06:28 PM
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Hey, kissing ass to be a guide in a nexus subpath is hard work and not for everyone.
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SungKen
post Sep 13 2016, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (Qwertyer @ Sep 11 2016, 06:28 PM) *
Hey, kissing ass to be a guide in a nexus subpath is hard work and not for everyone.


Its a hard job... but someone has to suck it.


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Falaris
post Sep 18 2016, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 11 2016, 05:42 PM) *
Hey come on, it's totally roleplaying for a path to have a special unique ability nobody else has and that can make the subpath member incredibly wealthy for doing virtually nothing.

Adding a couple squiggly lines to the name of an item should definitely cost 500,000 gold coins.


Oh come on, don't be jelly.

I'll agree that there have been many guides over time who have done virtually nothing but collect engrave income, and quite frankly those people suck.

While casting the spell is easy enough, that doesn't take into account a few other things:

1) Merchants as a path have (had?) been screwed for over a decade easily, starting when subpath requests and the quota even became a thing. I can't really talk about the last few years though. Engrave was one of the very few things the path had.

2) The work it takes to be a decent/active guide. That spell should be an indirect reward for putting in the work of being a guide. Not saying other paths' guides don't have the same burdens, but...

3) It IS also the subpath devoted to trading and wealth. I do think it fits in with roleplay.

4) At many times throughout the spell's history, a portion of engrave income is donated to the path, which then goes down to walkers and the community via events.

I'm all for other subpaths' guides having equally cool abilities that they could charge for, too.

From looking in at the game every so often, it doesn't seem like $500k is all that much anymore anyway. It wasn't that much in 2007 when my in-game net worth was over $100m, and now it is 9 years later. And the majority of that was not from engrave - it was from gambling.


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darkmaverick
post Sep 18 2016, 11:27 PM
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QUOTE (Falaris @ Sep 18 2016, 08:50 PM) *
Oh come on, don't be jelly.

I'll agree that there have been many guides over time who have done virtually nothing but collect engrave income, and quite frankly those people suck.

While casting the spell is easy enough, that doesn't take into account a few other things:

1) Merchants as a path have (had?) been screwed for over a decade easily, starting when subpath requests and the quota even became a thing. I can't really talk about the last few years though. Engrave was one of the very few things the path had.


I seem to recall a certain someone arguing in the past that just because Merchants had Engrave shouldn't justify Merchants not having the ability to hunt.

I think that person may have been you, and the reverse of that argument ought to also be true.

The cost of Engrave is quite ridiculous and deep down you have to know that.

QUOTE
2) The work it takes to be a decent/active guide. That spell should be an indirect reward for putting in the work of being a guide. Not saying other paths' guides don't have the same burdens, but...


The work it takes to become a Merchant Guide is largely subjective. For some people they have to move heaven and earth; for others they need only be dating the correct person IRL. With the low player population I would not be surprised if they take just about anyone they can get, though I suppose with subpath group-think tendency toward elitism they probably have convinced themselves otherwise.

QUOTE
3) It IS also the subpath devoted to trading and wealth. I do think it fits in with roleplay.


It may fit the roleplay but designing a system so that you can make up to a million gold coins for 5 minutes of "work" is really stretching the roleplay argument.

QUOTE
4) At many times throughout the spell's history, a portion of engrave income is donated to the path, which then goes down to walkers and the community via events.


Whatever.

"We make so much money we just give it away because at a certain point money becomes meaningless" is what that really sounds like.



QUOTE
I'm all for other subpaths' guides having equally cool abilities that they could charge for, too.

From looking in at the game every so often, it doesn't seem like $500k is all that much anymore anyway. It wasn't that much in 2007 when my in-game net worth was over $100m, and now it is 9 years later. And the majority of that was not from engrave - it was from gambling.


I don't think inflation is a compelling argument considering inflated wealth values does not necessarily impact newer players whose gold generating ability is still limited by things like amber crafting, and whose values and rate of acquisition haven't changed in over a decade. Meaning that to new players 500K is quite alot of money.....but on the other hand, since "new players" is more of a hypothetical than a definite I don't see the point in arguing the case.


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Falaris
post Sep 19 2016, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 18 2016, 11:27 PM) *
I seem to recall a certain someone arguing in the past that just because Merchants had Engrave shouldn't justify Merchants not having the ability to hunt.

I think that person may have been you, and the reverse of that argument ought to also be true.

The cost of Engrave is quite ridiculous and deep down you have to know that.



The work it takes to become a Merchant Guide is largely subjective. For some people they have to move heaven and earth; for others they need only be dating the correct person IRL. With the low player population I would not be surprised if they take just about anyone they can get, though I suppose with subpath group-think tendency toward elitism they probably have convinced themselves otherwise.



It may fit the roleplay but designing a system so that you can make up to a million gold coins for 5 minutes of "work" is really stretching the roleplay argument.



Whatever.

"We make so much money we just give it away because at a certain point money becomes meaningless" is what that really sounds like.





I don't think inflation is a compelling argument considering inflated wealth values does not necessarily impact newer players whose gold generating ability is still limited by things like amber crafting, and whose values and rate of acquisition haven't changed in over a decade. Meaning that to new players 500K is quite alot of money.....but on the other hand, since "new players" is more of a hypothetical than a definite I don't see the point in arguing the case.


Oh boy, it's been so long since I've done this with you, Captain Strawman. Anyway,

1. Right, and I still would argue that it doesn't justify that Merchants don't have the ability to hunt. The reverse of that argument ought NOT to be true when I said other subpaths should have spells that enable other paths to make money too, and you knew I said that at the end before you replied. Rather than take away, I'd rather see things added.

2. I do not believe the cost of Engrave is ridiculous; I think it is very fair. Engraves are/were supposed to be special. You value things when you have to work to pay for them and spend a decent amount of cash. I would in fact argue that the cost of engraves might be too low considering inflation, but I don't know the economy of Nexus right now whatsoever. This is all subjective though so not much point in going further here.

3. Regardless of corruption or the people who don't/didn't work, my point still stands that I think it is a fair ability in return for the work many guides have put in. I did not say it was about the "5 minutes work" of casting the spell, I said it was a reward for all the work a guide should be doing. So if you agree with me it fits the roleplay, then I don't see the issue.

4. You can take what I said however you like and try to appeal to emotion, but it doesn't change the fact that guides have (had?) donated a portion of earnings to the path as a whole for a lot of the path's history, and that money DOES go down to the walkers and back into the community through various means. (Hrm... some goes to the guide, some to the path, some to the community... it's almost as if it is drawn from this crazy idea that Merchants have 3 duties as part of their roleplay.)

5. As you said, new players are hypothetical. Therefore I would argue that inflation is a compelling argument since engraves are almost certainly overwhelmingly purchased by players for whom 500k is not a lot of money.


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darkmaverick
post Sep 19 2016, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Falaris @ Sep 19 2016, 12:18 AM) *
Oh boy, it's been so long since I've done this with you, Captain Strawman. Anyway,


Got to stop you right there.

Strawman arguments are a response that argues something that wasn't advanced in the first place.

The subject of both your arguments and my responses revolved around the fairness of Engrave.

Your original arguments were,

1. Merchants used to have no hunting power so making ridiculous amounts of money from Engrave is justified compensation for this injustice.

To which I pointed out that Merchants now have hunting power so the reverse should be true; Engrave is not justified due to Merchant hunting power as it is at present.

That's not a strawman argument. It's pointing out the very rational fact that if Engrave's economic power is justified based on Merchant PvE deficiencies then it is no longer justified when those deficiencies no longer exist.

2. You argued that Engrave is a reward for the amount of work needed to become a Merchant guide.

I responded by pointing out that becoming a Guide is not a uniform process; it's not like performing a quest in the game with strict requirements. It is an arbitrary decision made by a single person -- the Elder of a path -- based on whatever subjective criteria they have at the time.

Again, this is not a strawman argument; I only pointed out errors of logic in your underlying presumptions.

3. You argued that Engrave is justified because of the Merchant roleplay.

I pointed out that justifying a largely effortless ability to generate millions of gold while providing a service that is monopolized by a handful of people while 99.9% of the game playerbase cannot compete with this service because they have no way of accessing the ability to Engrave, is stretching the definitions of roleplaying.

Roleplaying is really just flavor text laid upon the game ruleset. "Roleplaying" is not a game mechanic, and roleplaying must always be subservient to the mechanics of the game in order for fairness to exist in the ruleset.

For example, just because I want my character to be an unkillable god doesn't mean other players should have to play against my god character. That's not how roleplaying works in a game. The mechanics must always be balanced. You cannot use the argument of "roleplaying" to justify the intentional implementation of unfairness in a ruleset.

So again, this is not a strawman argument either. Although I was brief in my original one-sentence reply to your argument it was still correct.

4. You argued that the Engrave spell is justified because "at many times in the spell's history" the Guides have had to donate a portion of the money earned to various charitable causes.

I mocked this, but I think my mocking is warranted. "At many times" is not all the time, and a portion is not all of the money. This means by your own admittance many of the times a Merchant Guide performs an Engrave they keep all of the money for themselves, and even on those occasions where they donate they still retain a portion for themselves.

I mocked this argument with the idea the Merchants only do this because of the vast wealth Engrave brings in necessities a need to get rid of excess gold that is accumulated through Engrave, and I don't think this argument is entirely mistaken as it tends to be people in the Merchant path that hit the gold cap.

5. Your last argument was that 500K isn't even that much by current inflation standards.

This may be a true statement but, as I pointed out, when you need to consider the balance of the game ruleset to create fairness, being able to generate millions of coins with a monopolized ability makes Merchant Guides largely immune to the effects of inflation in the market, is not fair.

When you have certain market players who possess immunity to the market inflation the market is difficult for new players to enter because they need resources they may not be able to obtain. In this case, gold coins necessary for purchasing one-time event items from other players that are nearly necessary for optimal play and without which a player of say Warrior and Rogue path may not be able to output enough damage for a Poet / Mage to tolerate hunting with them.

A hypothetical new player to NexusTK would need to invest many hundreds of hours into amber hunting and gemcutting skill leveling in order to acquire 500K which a Merchant Guide need only perform a spell to obtain while otherwise camping AFK for the rest of their play. While you may try to argue that to become a Merchant Guide requires hundreds of hours of work, the fact is Guideship can be and often has been awarded based on nepotism.

A new player might also be able to get 500K in donations from veteran players who take pity on them, but outside of the Merchant Elder, no one can grant an ability to acquire millions of coins for little to no time investment. Wealthy non-Merchant Guide players must still invest more time into wealth acquisition than a Merchant Guide with Engrave needs to.

So....once more, I didn't make a strawman argument either. As I always do I respond directly to the arguments you advance.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

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halombobtk
post Sep 20 2016, 01:28 AM
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That moment when no one involved realizes they're arguing over the price of something that doesn't affect actual gameplay whatsoever and literally amounts to different text appearing next to an item slot.

If it's too expensive, players won't buy as many engraves. Sure, it's a monopoly, but even monopolies are subject to the effects of pricing on the demand curve. How is this even a thread?
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darkmaverick
post Sep 20 2016, 10:36 AM
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It's true that Engrave is not a critical part of the game, but its effects on the market is a good example of some of the elements of poor game design that NexusTK has.



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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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