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> Where Have All The Do Gone?
SilentS
post Apr 6 2010, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (MainAttraction @ Apr 5 2010, 12:38 PM) *
^ but it's not illegal to "train" people for months.
Actually, it is. Specific paths have been told out right to cut back on their trainings so that it does not take ages to get into the paths. Granted it may be required for some people (case by case with proof), but in general the orders from above were to get things going in a more timely manor. And to stop the "elite clubs" that some subpaths have been in the past.


QUOTE
Also what is the point of making a warrior or rogue leave an NPC subpath? You can give that RP bull[Content removed], "they are showing their dedication" but ultimatley isn't their training the thing that shows dedication? To take an arguement out of DM's bag of goodies, it just seems like a lot of the higher ups in war/ro subpaths figured they had to pay for all the years they had without rage/cunning and are making those other people pay. What's even funnier is how subpaths like the chongun require you to be without a path even before you send in your app, so you had to gamble 1bil exp just to test the waters to see if a guide/guides liked your style. 1bil is nothing to laugh at, that can take pre-ilsan fighters ages to get.

In the end it comes down to if the hopeful really wants into the path or it is just a passing moment for them. More than once people have wasted our time in trying to train and not giving a rats ass about it. So in part that rule came about (and yes, I did push on it) to attempt to cut back on those people. For the most part it did work. Sure it puts the person at a disadvantage hunting wise, but it does show (in theory) where their real interest is. It has nothing to do on how hard it was on those of us in the past (but you do have to admit things are way easier now compared to then), that is just a convenient excuse.


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Aeriath
post Apr 7 2010, 01:50 AM
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darkmaverick
post Apr 7 2010, 12:20 PM
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I don't get a kick out of it. It makes me sad. It's part of the reason I wish Elders were removed from the game and Guides were free to make their own "sects", with whatever rules and standards and roleplay they wanted to teach their Walkers. Then the cream would rise to the top, rather than drown below the surface mold.

QUOTE (SilentS @ Apr 6 2010, 06:50 PM) *
In the end it comes down to if the hopeful really wants into the path or it is just a passing moment for them. More than once people have wasted our time in trying to train and not giving a rats ass about it. So in part that rule came about (and yes, I did push on it) to attempt to cut back on those people. For the most part it did work. Sure it puts the person at a disadvantage hunting wise, but it does show (in theory) where their real interest is. It has nothing to do on how hard it was on those of us in the past (but you do have to admit things are way easier now compared to then), that is just a convenient excuse.


I think whether these tactics show a player's true interest or not is highly, highly debatable.

I would also argue that the importance of ensuring people are going to join the path for life is much less important than it was when I was a Guide with a limited number of Walker slots (I think it was like 12?) and the karma cost to add Walkers was significant.

I honestly do not see the harm of adding someone to a path and training them from within the path, where they can actually get a feel for what kind of community they are joining.

I mean really, what damage can a Walker really do? Look at their privileges.

-Spells (Barbarian push is the only spell I can think of that has any abuse potential)

-Items (they can only be worn by subpath members and most of their stats suck, so why should anyone care?)

-Board (so they can read the subpath board, so what? Many Guides share the contents of the boards with their friends and let's not pretend otherwise-- I'm pretty sure the Spy subpath is nearly devoted to spying on everyone else, so nothing posted to any board should ever be considered secret)

-Reputation (Every subpath has been involved in hundreds of scandals, many of which involve Guides and Elders. Hell, some subpaths have a history of nothing but scandal after scandal. Some noob Walker who makes an ass of himself isn't going to bring down the whole subpath).

Any sane individual that looks at these "weeding out" policies can see they are not only ineffective; they aren't even necessary. A Walker cannot bring down a subpath with deviant behavior-- only Guides and Elders have enough power to do that.


I mean, this isn't boot camp where Drill Sgts need to take a civilian (who may have never in their life hurt a fly) and break them down mentally so they can be rebuilt into a soldier who will obey orders in life or death situations.

I also think the, "Well that is how it was when I joined!" argument is made by Elders and Guides more often than you are suggesting. There are many who believe that because they had to do something in order to join a path, everyone should have to as well. Once they have obtained what they wanted, they stop thinking about whether or not what was asked of them was acceptable to begin with.

I also think subpaths were a hell of a lot more interesting before they all decided to become "psuedo-families" rather than organizations.


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Foxfire
post Apr 7 2010, 12:33 PM
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I resent being called surface mold!

But I'm thanking Supply wholeheartedly for eliminating most of these issues in druid. laugh.gif


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darkmaverick
post Apr 7 2010, 12:44 PM
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I don't know if you're the kind of Elder I'm thinking of.

The kind I'm thinking of is the Elder who has lost their hunger to do great things that will bring enjoyment to not only their path but the community. The person who has a million arguments against the new ideas of others while possessing no new ideas of their own. Or worse, the person who is more than happy to take the credit for the work those below them do while doing little themselves besides stamping their approval.


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Twerky
post Apr 7 2010, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE (Aeriath @ Apr 6 2010, 11:50 PM) *
I thought everyone would get a kick out of this. I finished my Barbarian training and was told that my interview before I was walked would be done by Winder. I thought "Alright, so at the latest the next day!". This was last Friday I believe. I am on all the time so even if I am not actually at my computer I can still be contacted. Even if I wasn't online there is still n-mail. I saw Winder on today for at the most 2 minutes and he didn't contact me. I didn't bother him with whispers out of respect, but I think I should have.

There is no reason for this kind of wait just so a specific person can do the interview. XItachiX can do it and he is on all the time. I believe that any guide could do it as well. I even contacted Itachi about it and was told to tell my Guide to contact Winder. My guide is on only slightly more than Winder and he hasn't mentioned anything about it.

I just thought that everyone would enjoy that since we were talking about this very thing.


You ought to realize that certain guides have certain responsibilities. Maybe Winder didn't have the time available to interview you. And what I know of Barbarians they typically have more than one guide interview a pup before they're walked. So maybe enough guides weren't available at the time.

I know of you Aeriath and compared to other pups or Barbarians that I've recently known to be walked you're greatly exaggerating the amount of time your training has taken. I think you ought to follow others example and have a bit more patience.

I, for one, don't get much of a kick out of someone being a tad ungrateful when someone took the time to train them in the first place.

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darkmaverick
post Apr 7 2010, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (Twerky @ Apr 7 2010, 01:11 PM) *
I, for one, don't get much of a kick out of someone being a tad ungrateful when someone took the time to train them in the first place.


Oh, please. Asking a newb 99 Warrior to treat the GAME as a chat room until someone gets around to adding them to the path so they can learn rage so they can hunt and/or find a group for whatever event is going on, is a ridiculous request. There is a limit to a person's patience when you're asked to stop playing the game until you can join a social group. If there is one thing I am most critical of mug for doing it is for making the new rages subpath only, rather than just making CR rage a warrior spell. The 2nd is that he hasn't put his foot down on Warrior subpaths demanding aspirants to lose Rage long before they will join the subpath.

It is such an easy thing to fix. All he has to do is change the class flags for the CR spells to make them equal "Warrior" and give CRs some totem animal morph spell so they still have something "unique". He could probably do it within an hour. Or he could just tell the Elders to stop being asses.

And yes, Warrior Elders, you're an ass if you believe you have the right to ask someone to self-nerf themselves. Unless your gee jolly amazing "training" can replace the fun of hunting or compensate someone for being unable to enjoy a seasonal event, you shouldn't be asking someone to twiddle their thumbs until you get around to giving them a membership card. And I severely doubt there is so much roleplaying activities to do in Nexus that there is never any filler time that someone doesn't thinks, "I'm bored, I should find a hunt" or "I totally don't want to try to get that rare, once-in-a-life-time event item!"


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Aeriath
post Apr 7 2010, 02:09 PM
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oogabooga
post Apr 7 2010, 02:39 PM
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KOFighter waited 6 months not being trained then he had he had a couple more months during training. Maybe you should shut your mouth and stop being so ungrateful.
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Musoyan
post Apr 7 2010, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (oogabooga @ Apr 7 2010, 03:39 PM) *
KOFighter waited 6 months not being trained then he had he had a couple more months during training. Maybe you should shut your mouth and stop being so ungrateful.


So are you saying that it was acceptable what they did to him?
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Dritz
post Apr 7 2010, 02:53 PM
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A person should not be grateful for being trained or accepted into a subpath. Guides don't like to hear this but like it or not it is peoples right to be given a fair chance at entering a subpath and yes that includes some actual effort in getting things done.

You might want to tone it down a bit though Aeriath. Though you defiantly have a reasonable position, I would hate to see someone throw a lot of their work away over Nexus Forums. Another sad fact is that criticisms such as these could be used against you in game.


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Aeriath
post Apr 7 2010, 02:58 PM
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WereWulf
post Apr 7 2010, 03:18 PM
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I am waiting for the post about how the "higher ups" decided because of Nexus Forums they cannot admit you. Its a load of [Content removed] but the "ungrateful" train is never late tongue.gif Psh.. now that I gave it away they will probably have you wait another 6 months for the test so they can say you decided to quit on your own.


DM is clearly right in this argument. I'm sorry SilentS I do think you are a great elder but some of your rules do not work. When I was getting SamuraiHanzo into Chongun I was 100% eager and ready to join, but after 4 months of school and chongun training I was ready to unregister. Nexus should be my escape from work/school not more of it.

Sorry for edit but I thought I should add. My school did limit my play time, I will agree to that, but it still should not have taken 4 months to become a Chongun. All my answers were to the letter, and for some reason a good week of my training was spent meeting with Do guides trying to see if I was meant for their path... which still boggles my mind tongue.gif


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SilentS
post Apr 7 2010, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (Aeriath @ Apr 7 2010, 01:58 PM) *
People just have to understand that I am not making this discussion personal. I am just using my experiences to prove our point.

While that maybe so, the opposite is also true. People just have to understand (taking your words) what the guides and elders are faced with and go through every day. Granted some take it to the extreme and go overboard, but the reasonings are there as well. There are always more than one side to a story or situation.


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oogabooga
post Apr 7 2010, 03:22 PM
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While it does suck that training can take that long it shows dedication. He proved to be a better Barbarian than other people that were walked in less than 2 months. He didn't complain like Aeriath does and she will probably become a useless Barbarian.
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Musoyan
post Apr 7 2010, 03:26 PM
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If you aren't going to bring anything to the discussion other than insults then go post somewhere else.

However, Aeriath, I WOULD refrain from saying any more on the issue. Elders and guides can try to find a way to not allow you to be admitted in to the subpath even based on whats written on here. Sad but it has happened before. sad.gif
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MainAttraction
post Apr 7 2010, 04:47 PM
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The problem with all of this is that it's an ingrained problem. And it's too difficult to change unless Kru becomes more readily involved (and really they should be). DM's idea regarding eliminating the elder position or atleast taking control of it is a great idea. Theres no need for that type of power anymore (it's not important or worthwhile for the player as it was early on when there was less gm interferance).


From a players perspective though, and I put a lot of thought into this 2 years ago.


What you essentially have to do to change this problem is get an entirely new guide circle (not tainted or biased by the old ways) and build up the system from the ground up or have fully open minded guides (like pyroace for example). It's then when you establish a system that makes sense in this current gameworld and real life world that will ultmatley make your game and path thrive. You might argue that theres no need to eliminate the in place guides (most of them like say SilentS are nice people) but the problem is, with them, theres too much red tape to cross-- most of them are stuck in their ways and like things exactly how they are and you spend too much time arguing or debating rather than fixing (how they percieve things were. New guides, or atleast "willing" guides speed up the process and allow for things to get rolling immediatly. You have to gamble your beliefs against theres and hope you win.

Theres no need for a training period to be more than 1-2 weeks tops (a player should be able to register and experience a subpath within the 1 month they try out the game), and theres no reason why a roleplay bs response can't be made up to allow NPC players to pursue training as they are, the only time they should have to leave is when they are going to abandon to join the subpath of their choice, theres no reason to have 90% of the quests used for subpath training most of its busy work that has no real value, theres no reason to have time limits long durational stupid quests to gain path items etc (that essentially suck and have no real effect on the game mechanics etc) theres no reason for any of that patience bull[Content removed] in nexus. It's lazy, it's boring, it's a time waster.

What's ironic is that if I had a bit more patience (that or went full-tyrant right from the start and walked all my pk friends) I think I could have seriously made a dent in this issue, at least for 1 subpath but I still think its the whirlwind fast change that will be the only way something like this works, its just whomever does it, will have to have enough like minded support, something I didn't have.


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Winder
post Apr 7 2010, 05:48 PM
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Wow. Talk about a bad choice of words and actions.

If you just whisper me or mail me (which you finally did) you'll get a response quickly (which you did). I'm not your mom. I'm not going to run around looking for you or remind you to do your work. You are responsible for approaching me. You are responsible for getting your tasks done.


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shall stand no more" - Winder, The Merciless.
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Aug 8 2010, 03:29 AM) *
Well, I guess I'm wrong then.
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Dritz
post Apr 7 2010, 05:56 PM
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The idea that scorched earth is required for any big change is ludicrous at best. People are hesitant to change, yes. People in power are even more so. People are open to new ideas as long as they are provided an opportunity to shape them. In the end something like 'get rid of the elder' is from my perspective a rather silly (strong language I know) suggestion.

Organizations should always look for ways to decentralize power and responsibilities. This allows any one area to receive the utmost focus from a person or a group of people. Someone who has to much to do will tend to prioritize based on their opinions rather than organizational goals. Of course there is the ever present accusations of corruption which could also be stifled by decentralizing.

That all being said there has got to be connections between different centres. If George is in charge of a dark role-playing group within the Painters subpath he still needs to interact with Sally who deals with the lime green rp group in the Painters subpath. Both will certainly need to talk with Bob who handles complaints about walkers in the Painters subpath. Once you have connections between people like that, it is usually most efficient to have someone one rung up who coordinates those people along with some other responsibilities of their own.

So yah a Subpath will always (in my opinion) need someone at the 'top'. Just looking at the structure of subpaths, they are not as fundamentally flawed as people suggest.
CODE
Path to subpaths:

       GM (Mug)
             |
        Archon Primogen (Dalnum)
            __|__
           |     |
           |    etc
        Archon Primarch (Subpaths) (Maiyu)
          _________________|_________________
         |                                   |
Archon Warrior/Rogue Subpaths (Sashia)   Archon Mage/Poet Subpaths
         ________|______                     |
        |  |  |     | | |                   etc
       Ch Ba Do       etc.

Subpath

                     Elder
     _________________|_________________
    |     |     |           |     |     |
  Guide Guide Guide       Guide Guide Guide (Guides may run various
    |_____|_____|___________|_____|_____|   departments (ie events or such))
                  |        |
              Aspirants  Walkers


There is nothing wrong with that structure just because oh noes there is a single person at the top. Problems can be run into when an Elder takes on to much responsibility within their path. Something like personally approving every single aspirant or even new walkers should not be something an elder should be involved in. Something as broad as training policies (or any rules and procedures) should also not be solely determined by an elder but by the elder and guide circle.

An elder is mostly necessary for communication with the next level of up. They are a good contact point and an efficient filter in getting stuff like requests up top. Filter is a bit of a poor choice of words as they shouldn't 'filter' anything that is already decided by a larger group, perhaps pass on is better.

Something like banning people from subpath should also be limited to the elder. The Painters subpath might have different divisions of role-play and thus an argument could be made that someone in charge of a particular role-play section could boot people from it. However removing someone from a subpath has some pretty far reaching consequences for the path as a whole. It's better to have on person educated on policies and procedures (dictated from those above them) and be able to carry out a booting (upon the advisement and decision as those below them).

A well informed and competent guide circle that is held accountable by the walkers can handle pretty much everything in a subpath if responsibilities are properly dispersed. Something like this:

CODE
Painters Subpath

                 Elder
                   |
---------------Guide pool----------------
|        __________|_______________etc. |
|       |        |            |         |
|  Complaints Events    Ambassador      |
|     __|________           __|_____    |
|    |           |         |        |   |
| Internal    External  Subpaths  Clans |
-----------------------------------------
         ___________|___________
        |                       |
     Aspirants                Walkers


Considering this is Nexus we are talking about that might be a little to complicated considering population and such. There's also the fact that walkers can and should be included in some upper level activities such as being in charge of events or interpath relations. Still it's a decent model (if I do say so myself).

~

Really any proposals to drastically rewrite the organization of subpaths is based purely on the opinions of those burned by it's implementation. There is plenty to work with as the subpaths are already set up. A path has got to decentralize responsibilities and when a large decision is made approach it as democratically as possible. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater (always wanted to use that line).


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MainAttraction
post Apr 7 2010, 06:41 PM
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"The idea that scorched earth is required for any big change is ludicrous at best. People are hesitant to change, yes. People in power are even more so. People are open to new ideas as long as they are provided an opportunity to shape them."


Lets see then. For any guide or elder (preferably present) fill out this survey: Just x anything you'd be open to...


training maximum start to walk is 2 weeks

busy work trials fully eliminated (no more worthless crap, no more mandatory "classes" etc, and no "patience" trials)

all trainees can be npc while training


I don't think theres very many in place that would x more than 1. For the most part theres enough freedom to shape these individually, for example what constitutes busy work etc is open for debate.


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