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> How to address subpath imbalances, Also easy.
Doctor
post Apr 22 2016, 03:50 PM
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Yeah DM you're way off base.

1. Nobody uses polearms anymore because of TPs. Rogues don't, warriors don't. At any level. Not at 99, not at Sa.
2. CR brings in the most experience of any warrior path.
3. Warrior subpaths are imbalanced to Barbs being the best at PvP.


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Gabe
post Apr 22 2016, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 21 2016, 08:39 AM) *
Every possible way Push could be used against other players was used, and it's never been more than a minor annoyance.


You seriously don't remember players being killed because they were pushed into certain caves? Minor annoyance? It cannot happen as heavily anymore but that sure wasn't a minor annoyance back in the day.

I am not in Barb but maybe Britt can answer the question; hey Britt, could you toss someone into a Gogoon cave with push? Either way, I wouldn't want every warrior abusing the hell out of it for kicks and giggles.

If it was Pk only, then sure why not;' I've seen it used in very strategic ways in pk. Still annoying as hell though. lol.


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oogabooga
post Apr 22 2016, 05:54 PM
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And that's why just lol DM. You have decent ideas sometimes but as you said you have been out of the game since 2009. It is 2016 right now. Ingress and rages were normalized up to Sam but for Sa san they weren't making CRs hit 2-3x as hard as subpath warriors. That's the only thing I really read. Everything else was too long to read and based off 2009 data.
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BeffyCabeza
post Apr 22 2016, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (Gabe @ Apr 22 2016, 06:17 PM) *
You seriously don't remember players being killed because they were pushed into certain caves? Minor annoyance? It cannot happen as heavily anymore but that sure wasn't a minor annoyance back in the day.

I am not in Barb but maybe Britt can answer the question; hey Britt, could you toss someone into a Gogoon cave with push? Either way, I wouldn't want every warrior abusing the hell out of it for kicks and giggles.

If it was Pk only, then sure why not;' I've seen it used in very strategic ways in pk. Still annoying as hell though. lol.


I'm not Britt, but I can answer the question. They fixed the warps so that people could not be pushed into caves. If there are warps somewhere that still allow this, let me know, and I'll see if I can't get them taken care of.

We do have strict laws on use of Push, and abuse is taken seriously.

I wouldn't want every warrior having push, unless it was solely usable in pk. Teragg and the other judges would drown in the justice matters of harassment if all warriors could use push outside of PK. tongue.gif



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darkmaverick
post Apr 23 2016, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (Gabe @ Apr 22 2016, 05:17 PM) *
You seriously don't remember players being killed because they were pushed into certain caves? Minor annoyance? It cannot happen as heavily anymore but that sure wasn't a minor annoyance back in the day.


As Beffy pointed out, that was many fixed years ago, the same time that a change was made to stop abusive peasants blocking doorways.


QUOTE
If it was Pk only, then sure why not;' I've seen it used in very strategic ways in pk. Still annoying as hell though. lol.


If a player is lagging so bad they can't escape Push spam by simplying walking another direction, all they have to do is use Gateway.

Push is a pretty useful skill for PvP because it allows knocking into traps, and in PvE it gives a good deal of control over group placement in a dungeon.

If people are so damn worried about some high mana Warrior actually trying to perma lock some laggy player with Push, simply giving it a 1-2 second aether will stop that. But I doubt it's necessary because getting Pushed around is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.


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Songa
post Apr 23 2016, 08:05 AM
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I remember now that I thought of a solution to the path imbalance that would satisfy everyone. Basically have the subpaths who are without any useful hunting spells if they would like to upgrade/request new ones. I know that Muse technically has hunting spells but they've been broken for years. Muse has a spell that "confuses" an entire room of monsters. The problem is that it lasts all of 5 seconds and doesn't work on every creature. It was "fixed" (apparently it was supposed to be amnesia or confuse, I can't remember, and they gave the opposite) but it still never really worked that well.

I don't think giving all paths spells that we associate with a subpath would go over that well. They are a part of that path, if that makes sense. Having an open discussion about it would help.
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darkmaverick
post Apr 23 2016, 12:12 PM
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The problem is you can't create equality by creating difference.

If you have one class and three subclasses for it, and unique PvE / PvP skills are exclusive to certain subclasses, it is inevitable that one class will emerge who is superior in PvE / PvP. World of Warcraft is a good comparison I used before, because they abandoned the talent tree system -- which was also three subclasses, essentially -- in favor of the current system where the choice of specialization is a largely false choice -- unless you are a hybrid choosing between tank, dps or healer spec (such as a Paladin), the specialization system gives you only one obvious choice for Pvp and one obvious choice for PvE. This is most clearly seen with pure damage dealing classes like Hunter and Rogue, where at any given time the vast majority of the playerbase is using the same build for PvE or PvP because it's the most effective in terms of min-maxing.

As the player can freely respec at any time to ensure their character has the optimal build for the activity they want to perform, the balance issues between subclasses in WoW is more of a nuisance than an inhibitor to play.

Contrast this to Nexus where subclasses are not easily switched depending on what you want to do, and are intended to be largely definitive. When you become a Barb, you're not expected to later become a Chung Ryong just to hunt, and switch back to Barb to PvP. This definitive aspect of subclasses is the main culprit to the subpath balance issue, and can be completely negated with my suggestion to throw all PvE and Pvp skills into the base class and selectable via alignment choice. If that happened it would no longer matter what subpath you are, your Pvp / PvE strength would be based entirely in what alignment you are using. Subpaths would keep their rp related features such as brands and whatnot, and remain unique in the only area they should be.

Really, I can't think of another MMO where players control who has access to a subclass and its skills. It's not done this way in other MMOs because it's so obviously inefficient and unfair to the general population of players.

The other thing to consider is with Nexus, you have subclasses managed by elitist clubs who restrict membership due to having a "holier than thou" mentalities, which is really just an attempt to mask their true intentions; to control the number of people who have access to the skills that make the elitist feel more special and advantaged.

The sheer fact the Barbarian argument about Push is it's okay for them to have it because they self-police is demonstrative of what I am talking about with the psuedo-moral superiority complex that is rampant within subpaths. They aren't threatened by the idea of people abusing Push; they are threatened by the idea they will no longer control who has Push.

So no, I don't think the subpath membership should have any input whatsoever. The imbalances got to the point they are at because generations of subpath leaders were only looking out for their own interests and couldn't care less about how it created design flaws that impacted gameplay for the rest of the playerbase. KRU adding new content to the game based on the recommendation of players who have a vested interest in creating advantages they can control and award to other players is what got us into this mess to begin with. Stop letting these elitist players decide how the game works, because their interest in the matter is purely self-serving and will never lead to a balanced game, and it's actually a contributing factor to why people have quit NexusTK.

On the other hand, I doubt KRU has a genuine intention to address the balance issues. It is so easily solvable that if they actually cared they would have done so years ago.


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Qwertyer
post Apr 23 2016, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 23 2016, 10:12 AM) *
The problem is you can't create equality by creating difference.


Not all men were created equal. Nexus isn't checkers. Tough [Content removed].
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Dritz
post Apr 24 2016, 08:06 PM
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I wouldn't be against the homogenization of the base paths necessarily. However for hunting spells/equipment I think it would be nice to still have different graphics and such appropriate for the subpaths. This is a graphical game so even if you are a hardcore roleplayer I think you should appreciate some variety in the execution of spells and such.

Still I look at other online games and they do ok with balancing multiple paths. They do this by just admitting to themselves that true balance can never be reached and constantly tweaking things. No Nexus GM would ever be willing to do that.


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Krmit
post Apr 25 2016, 01:41 PM
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QUOTE (Qwertyer @ Apr 21 2016, 04:03 PM) *
The fact is you don't play: you don't hunt, you don't compete in pk. CR is still and always will be the way to go to gain stats with the strongest rage. Subpath items are worthless, the TP is king. Few top warriors even pk, and when they do no subpath has a clear cut advantage, except that CR is lacking any tricks up its sleeve.

If anything, give Do and Chongun an attack, a short aethered sanc or an aethered 1-2second stun/slow. Barbs should put out most damage, chongun should be hard to kill and Do should have a tricky little tactic.

Come play the game for a couple months and show you're not a scrub before offering advice on how to fix the state of a game you have no idea about.


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Brancrese
post Apr 26 2016, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Qwertyer @ Apr 23 2016, 04:03 PM) *
Not all men were created equal. Nexus isn't checkers. Tough [Content removed].



You're missing the point though. This isn't a moral decision, it's not about cute little tag lines about "equality" or whatever. It's strictly pragmatism, and it means, quite literally, it's impossible to do what you're saying.

You cannot create equality with differentiation, it's impossible. At it's very base, if you differentiate paths, one of them is always going to be better at something than another. You can create balance by saying, While Path "1", is really good at, "Y", Path "2", is really good at "Z", so it all balances out. That balance is debatable, depending on what Y and Z are, and how important they are to a majority of players. Therein lies the problem. The whims of players will change, PK may be huge for some players, so if you want to Pk, and path "1", has great Pk abilities, that's where you're going to go. Path "2" has great hunting abilities, and you really want to hunt, so go there.

None of this supports good roleplay, as people are never joining a path because that's what they want their character to be. They're joining for what they want to do with the abilities that path has. This is fundamental to the entire issue.

So no, you cannot create equality with a system that creates distinction among Subpaths. Otherwise, just drop the idea of roleplay, make all Paths NPC based, and let people roleplay them if they feel like it. Then, when you have completely equal access to each path, you could differentiate on play styles, and let people decide what they want to do with their character.

That would work. If like has been said you want Barbs to do the most Damage, cause they're Barbs, Chonguns to be tanks of some sort, and take more damage, and Do to be "tricky" or whatever the hell someone said. That, by the way, is almost exactly what DM was saying in the OP, but rather than moving those choices and differentiation into subpaths, he moved them into the alignments. Differentation is fine, and the idea of "subpaths" allow you to play a "Warrior", "Mage", etc... In a fundamentally different manner is good, that's what it should do. But you cannot do that within player run subpaths. Subpaths must have 100% access, without forced roleplay, to the those differentiated choices on how they want the abilities of their character to develop. Player run subpaths either need to exist solely for roleplay, or they need to not be player run anymore.

You can't have it both ways.
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YanDaMan
post Apr 26 2016, 02:59 PM
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SilentNights
post Apr 28 2016, 06:09 AM
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Jesus....

all these posts, even after over a decade...

Always come back to push. God damn...game hasn't changed a bit wink.gif

SN

PS: Push has/had aethers in pvp last time I bothered to go to something like that, so whatever arguments you're using without knowing that are now invaild. Sorry sad.gif
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Ieyasu
post Apr 28 2016, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Apr 15 2016, 09:19 PM) *
You guys know the game Ragnarok? Sure, lots of us know about it. Well there is a game named Tree of Savior which is basically just Ragnarok 2.0.

NexusTK needs a Tree of Savior. The problems in this game are massive and need to be blown up and rebuilt.

exact same thoughts going through my mind..
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darkmaverick
post Apr 28 2016, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE (Qwertyer @ Apr 23 2016, 03:03 PM) *
Not all men were created equal. Nexus isn't checkers. Tough [Content removed].


Brancrese's response is on point. The only thing I have further to add is that videogames are a system of algorithms created by the game designers. The purpose of algorithms is to solve problems, and because it is math, it's possible for designers to create a perfectly balanced game where everyone has equal chance and opportunity to win.

A videogame character is not a person. It's a set of data created by people. So your Darwinist statement is irrelevant.

Yet, while some level of difference is necessary to create challenges in videogames, a game where everyone has equal opportunity to win at goals often means players lose half the time. So in terms of designing PvE content, game designers make the odds in favor of the players because losing half the time is rarely fun (PvP, by contrast, in a well designed game is meant to have that 50/50 chance so that player skill becomes the determining factor for victory).

But this only applies to PvE choices. Joining a player-ran organization is not a PvE choice, it is a social one. People should not obtain exceptional PvE and PvP advantages for making a social choice. That's the root of the problem with subpaths. What social group you enlist in determines the PvE and PvP strength of your character. This is a huge design flaw in an MMO centered largely on PvE and PvP.

QUOTE (SilentNights @ Apr 28 2016, 06:09 AM) *
PS: Push has/had aethers in pvp last time I bothered to go to something like that, so whatever arguments you're using without knowing that are now invaild. Sorry sad.gif


I have a vague memory of using Push on the test server and it had a one second aether, so it gave the message "wait for aethers to clear" or whatever it specifically says when it has 1 second remaining. I don't know if that is how it was working on the main server but any concerns about push being abused can be addressed with a slight aether count. I really don't think it's a problem.

For what it is worth on the test server I used a Warrior which had every Warrior spell, including subpath spells, to clear the sa san house trial. This was of course many years ago, but since game mechanics very rarely change given KRU's lack of interest in development I doubt there are any substantial differences.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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Brancrese
post Apr 28 2016, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 28 2016, 12:36 PM) *
But this only applies to PvE choices. Joining a player-ran organization is not a PvE choice, it is a social one. People should not obtain exceptional PvE and PvP advantages for making a social choice.


Quoted for truth. This sums it up better than my post did, and is 100% correct.

A Player run subpath is a Social Organization. You join to feel apart of something greater, and if they continue to exist, it should be only to support that social dynamic of the game. That's what roleplay is about, becoming a part of a world, and playing apart within it. If KRU really wants to turn the game around, they absolutely must find a way to separate these two aspects. It was poor design from the start to blend them together, and it's only gotten worse over the years.
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