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> Chongun Leeching Issue
solman
post Apr 23 2013, 11:28 PM
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guldar leeches on their alts.. i think there is a conflict of interest. Only real reason for no leech is because then you can prove how much better chongun/barb spells/weapons are over CR. But stupid either way.


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LouisVuitton
post Apr 24 2013, 06:37 AM
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All of the good leeching rooms are usually pretty busy, even with 100 players.. 2nd room Rhino, Lobsters, Northern ogers last room, underwater.. Awhile ago I was playing my Chongun and was leeching my alt poet in Rhinos.. Once another group came in and saw a mighty honorable coolguy Chongun leeching they cried to a guide, and I got a NASTY n-mail about leeching.. If you're going to leech on a Chongun make sure you do it somewhere nobody hunts, which is pretty easy to find now.
Yes Guldar, I have a Chongun and I leeched. <3 Kick me, I dare you


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Destyn
post Apr 24 2013, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE (solman @ Apr 23 2013, 11:28 PM) *
guldar leeches on their alts.. i think there is a conflict of interest. Only real reason for no leech is because then you can prove how much better chongun/barb spells/weapons are over CR. But stupid either way.


Hardly. If you actually knew something, you'd realize that CR do quite a bit more damage than the subpaths. I have a sam san barb with weapon and CR does more damage (easily) with the same items. Just because someone leeches on their alt, doesn't mean it is a conflict of interest. That's called metagaming which should not apply to subpaths who roleplay. Regardless, leeching rule is stupid.


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Brant
post Apr 24 2013, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (Destyn @ Apr 24 2013, 01:02 PM) *
Hardly. If you actually knew something, you'd realize that CR do quite a bit more damage than the subpaths. I have a sam san barb with weapon and CR does more damage (easily) with the same items. Just because someone leeches on their alt, doesn't mean it is a conflict of interest. That's called metagaming which should not apply to subpaths who roleplay. Regardless, leeching rule is stupid.


CR is slightly better than Barb damage wise, but with attacks and everything else taken in to account, Barb has a huge advantage. Unfortunately, the last few Chongun elders spent so much time whining and lobbying the archons/KRU that they were so weak that they are now the strongest PC subpath. Do, on the other hand, has gotten jack [Content removed] in the last 5+ years with regards to hunting abilities. Then again, Do doesn't whine about it.

All of the classes are unbalanced when it comes to subpaths, that's why certain classes have a much larger player base than the others of the same class.

In case you were wondering:

Poet - Monk
Mage - Diviner
Rogue - Spy
Warrior - Historically it's been barb, but in the last few years Chongun passed them.

The rest of the paths are typically filled with alts or those who don't really hunt.
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OhHowSoCute
post Apr 24 2013, 03:08 PM
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If anyone wants to start some drama, pull a guldar.

Step 1: Get whiny and leave the path, email kru saying you are going to quit if guldar's head isn't on a plate.
Step 2: Lead revolt
Step 3: suck some [Content removed]
Step 4: become elder

But seriously, I think it would be mighty funny if the community outraged about this, and overthrew him for something so dumb. At least he's consistent though. He is the most holier than thou guy in the world.
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oogabooga
post Apr 24 2013, 03:51 PM
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CR may only be slightly better than the subpaths damage wise until Sa san but since the ingresses weren't evened out at Sa san like they were all the previous sans CRs can 2-4 swing a full PA set in anch3 while the rest take 10+ swings.
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Destyn
post Apr 24 2013, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (oogabooga @ Apr 24 2013, 03:51 PM) *
CR may only be slightly better than the subpaths damage wise until Sa san but since the ingresses weren't evened out at Sa san like they were all the previous sans CRs can 2-4 swing a full PA set in anch3 while the rest take 10+ swings.


I'm pretty sure even at sam san they out damage them. The PC subpath weapons really aren't all that great since some of these new weapons came out, and at sam san and sa san PC warriors have to use the same ingress as NPC warriors. So with stronger rage, similar weapons, and same ingress..you do the path.


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oogabooga
post Apr 25 2013, 05:03 AM
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I know that PC subpaths are comparably weaker was just going on Brant's point on how the may slightly be weaker. As I haven't had a below Sa san fighter since the ingress revamp I wouldn't know so I said may only slight be better.
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darkmaverick
post Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 22 2013, 06:16 PM) *
I hate to be "that guy," but the player does get to decide. These rules aren't exactly hidden to potentials. They know that joining the path means no leeching or being leeched. They aren't surprised by that, and that's their choice. Why join a path, knowing what their rules are, just to say that you don't want to follow those rules? It's like coming into Nexus, swearing left and right, and then complaining that you want to be able to swear. It was your choice to come into the game, knowing the rules (Level 5 and it's stated directly to you via. quest,) and now you want to change those rules. It's just silly.


So let me get this straight.


Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

When there are unfair rules, people are supposed to protest them and demand change. That's how social progress is made.

Sure, there are some rules that are part of a group's identity. Chonguns are supposed to be honorable, for example. But the leeching rule is just questionable as hell. I don't see how that fits in the identity of the path, and I'm saying that as one of the people responsible for their lore. If anything, there is a way to make it comply with their lore; Chonguns as militia leaders who need to train their soldiers from raw recruits into well drilled infantrymen, for example.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

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Falaris
post Apr 25 2013, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM) *
So let me get this straight.


Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?


Dude, whoa.


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Scruffy
post Apr 26 2013, 12:14 AM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 09:27 PM) *
So let me get this straight.


Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

When there are unfair rules, people are supposed to protest them and demand change. That's how social progress is made.

Sure, there are some rules that are part of a group's identity. Chonguns are supposed to be honorable, for example. But the leeching rule is just questionable as hell. I don't see how that fits in the identity of the path, and I'm saying that as one of the people responsible for their lore. If anything, there is a way to make it comply with their lore; Chonguns as militia leaders who need to train their soldiers from raw recruits into well drilled infantrymen, for example.


That's getting a bit extreme. People have protested. Members of the barbarians have said they want to leech. The path spoke and a majority said they didn't want to allow for leeching. The difference between your analogy and the reality of this situation is that these paths choosing not to leech literally does not affect anyone outside of the path. The people in the path are willing, where the slaves were not. It's like trying to go to the White House and saying "Quit brewing your White House beer, because we don't want you to. It's not fair." Well, how does that affect you at all? If these paths were directly trying to infringe on the entire community's right to leech, then I could see a need for protest. However, considering this isn't what's happening, I don't see the issue. If you have a character in one of these paths, talk to your elder. If not, why complain?
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darkmaverick
post Apr 26 2013, 11:57 AM
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Not sure why it double posted.

This post has been edited by darkmaverick: Apr 26 2013, 12:10 PM


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darkmaverick
post Apr 26 2013, 11:57 AM
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QUOTE (Falaris @ Apr 25 2013, 09:28 PM) *
Dude, whoa.


Well, it's true.

If you take the stance that people should react to unfair rules by just leaving and/or not joining a group, and that you should just form a different one, that's akin to saying, "Don't like the laws? Don't live here."

Unfortunately, in the land of Nexus, the game developers in their infinite wisdom have decided there is a finite number of subpaths and no new ones can be created. 12 lucky people get to be tyrants over the land and raise their own band of ass-kissers to political positions within their subpath cults. Even if "votes" are held, they are not held in any way that even remotely resembles a real democratic election, since nothing is done by secret ballot. People who vote to a side the Elder doesn't support suffer political backlash, and everyone knows it. The history of this community is filled with examples.

Of course, the Elders and their band of ass-kissers will never acknowledge this is how things work, because their egos do not allow them to accept anything less than them being good people; indeed, in their minds they are the last bastion of hope for their paths and guardians against it completely falling into decay. They are the heroes of the game, even if the consequences of their actions indicate otherwise.

It really sickens me how this game is held back by a handful of people who use the game to compensate for the lack of success in their real lives.

QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 26 2013, 12:14 AM) *
That's getting a bit extreme. People have protested. Members of the barbarians have said they want to leech. The path spoke and a majority said they didn't want to allow for leeching. The difference between your analogy and the reality of this situation is that these paths choosing not to leech literally does not affect anyone outside of the path. The people in the path are willing, where the slaves were not. It's like trying to go to the White House and saying "Quit brewing your White House beer, because we don't want you to. It's not fair." Well, how does that affect you at all? If these paths were directly trying to infringe on the entire community's right to leech, then I could see a need for protest. However, considering this isn't what's happening, I don't see the issue. If you have a character in one of these paths, talk to your elder. If not, why complain?


I'll give you three golden reasons why:

#1 This is not something that should have went to a path vote, because there is no harm in a Sa San Barbarian / Chongun helping someone go from level 1 to 99 in a weekend. There is only positive things that can come from that. There should not be penalties for doing things that cause no harm.

Just because it was decided by a "majority" does not make it a moral decision.

#2 It affects the community because it dictates how Barbarians will interact with non-Barbarians / Chonguns, especially during events where a Barbarian / Chongun may need to hunt with someone well below their own stats because the pickings are slim due to a low userbase. The parties in need of a fighter won't be able to select a Barb / Chongun whose stats are higher and might be perceived as leeching them, which leads the people in those parties to consider the Chonguns / Barbs some self-righteous twats too good for them.

# 3 It makes for more unnecessary political drama, such as someone crying for so-and so Sa san to be kicked from the Barbarians / Chonguns simply because he was in a party with an army of poets needed to heal him, because nobody else wanted to [Content removed]ing hunt at that time of day.

I could go on but it's really a giant waste of my time to do so. Those three reasons are enough.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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Falaris
post Apr 26 2013, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 26 2013, 11:57 AM) *
Well, it's true.

If you take the stance that people should react to unfair rules by just leaving and/or not joining a group, and that you should just form a different one, that's akin to saying, "Don't like the laws? Don't live here."


No, it really isn't true. The world is not black and white. I think my past on Nexus speaks for itself when it comes to what I believe in regard to changing things that I don't believe are right. However, in no way, shape, or form would I ever suggest that anything I did on Nexus compares to being for or against slavery.

I'm not really interested in getting into a long discussion with you and I have avoided the main point of this topic because A) I really don't care about Nexus, 2) I find it seriously amusing that people are still getting caught up in drama and arguments over this kind of nonsense, and D) lists are better in threes. Yet I jumped in here because it is flat out absurd to suggest that someone who ignores another person's silly rule in a fantasy game is akin to ignoring slavery and being a white supremacist. We are talking about players having a stupid restriction placed on them as far as how they choose to enjoy this game versus the ownership of other human beings' lives. That's not even on the same continent, much less in the same sport, much less in the same ballpark. Actually, it's not even on the same planet. You're on like, Pluto.

It's still a planet to me, damnit sad.gif


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WereWulf
post Apr 26 2013, 03:48 PM
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Wait lemme just get some things...




Okay go! tongue.gif


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CinderZ
post Apr 26 2013, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (WereWulf @ Apr 26 2013, 03:48 PM) *


Okay go! tongue.gif

My pleasure, WereWulf. tl;dr - I'm old, so listen to me, dang kids. I care more than Falaris, so I'll write more.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM) *
Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

Well, let's deconstruct this. It's always fun to redefine an opponent's position to one that few could possibly agree with. Unfortunately, it's not how reasonable discussion works. DarkMaverick presumes too early that the other side believes the rules are unfair. Many think it's a fair idea. Chonguns who train Warriors to be better Warriors feel that recipients of leeches are often ill-equipped and ill-informed on how to play the game well. Leechers aren't often very good trainers.

Now, I did leech people on my alternate character because there was and is a massive market of people who wanted an easier path for their alternate characters. I like warriors so I play warriors. It wasn't even gaming a system, because Chonguns were completely pathetic damage-dealers in hunts before PC fighter subpaths got rages and cunnings. Swinging became pointless very early in the game, and without vitality, Chonguns weren't much better than a poet walking around with a Spike. After I stepped down as elder, came back a few years later as my alternate character, then got my original character, CinderZ, restored, I thought, awesome, two warriors! Even better for me, WARRIORS GOT WAY BETTER! The suckfest that was playing a warrior from Y24-Y80 (I don't know, like 8 or 9 years) was unbelievable. I give a lot of credit to DarkMaverick for working so hard to get warrior whirlwind from 10 vitality ALWAYS TO an optional 10%. I remember that change. God, I'm old.

Perhaps it is the implementation of the leeching rules (by decree) which is unfair. That's a fair topic to debate, but let's set that aside for now.

DM, you compared a "try something else in another group" mindset to the beliefs of white supremacists, and that is beyond absurd. Doing this gets pageviews and attention, sure, but it also reveals a contempt for your opponent. It's fighting in the gutter, ignoring the original argument, and blatantly AD HOMINEM and REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM at the same time. Other examples of this style of poor argumentation include the oft-used Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies. ('You know who else thought your way.... HITLER!')

Conflating a demonstrable need for democracy within some subpaths with white supremacists confuses the issue, and isn't helpful.

Now, highlighting that there are other possibilities than just fomenting a rebellion is entirely within the bounds of discussion. On that point... life is not always about tearing down other people's work. People play favorites. Leaders make bold decisions. Rebellions sometimes occur as a result. DarkMaverick, yours failed, years and years ago. It was a hell of an attempt, but a failure nonetheless. It was consistent with many tight-knit organizations with strong leadership. When people quit and/or are removed from organizations, reinstatement is rare for the leaders of very public and very embarrassing insurrections, rebellions, etc.

I agreed with many of your ideas for the Chonguns then, which is why I didn't choose a successor when I stepped down as Elder, and the path voted for the next Elder, Audi. Over time, the Chongun lore dramatically changed, and it was great that you had a hand in writing it. You have great ideas, but when it came to Nexus... you had terrible methods. One of your great ideas is a blind ballot. It ought to be implemented in more subpaths.

You write that the subpath system ruins this game & subpath leaders are tyrannical in nature but are blind to it because of their own hero complexes. For a few cases, this is true. Not for all cases. People are more inclined to remember the worst examples of abuses of power. The subpath system absolutely could be set up better, but would not be historically or fictionally faithful, as god-awful as some GMs and Archons have been over the years.

IMO, doing what you did so long ago -- announcing to the Nexus Community board (and oh god, what

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM) *
# 3 [...] unnecessary political drama, [...]

that was...) that a subpath elder is handing off Eldership to a real-life relationship partner -- was revealing very personal information, and to many, that was an invasion of privacy. Was it the right thing to do? Again, I think it was the right idea but the wrong method, and it earned you many enemies and friends. Uprooting every subpath's culture and spreading freedom & democracy belies arrogance. Nexus was and continues to be a place shaped by ideas other than your own -- Neoconfucian ideas, Taoist ideas, Buddhist ideas, and ideas on Democracy.

So... not only do I believe that it is perfectly fine to tell people "Don't like this decision? Try another subpath!" Which, admittedly, can make us feel like this...



...in regards to subpaths themselves...

I think it is perfectly fine to tell people,

"Don't like this game? Accomplish something else in it!"

"Don't like subpath policies? Consult with subpaths in a respectful manner!"

"Have a good idea? Share it! It might be difficult to implement but don't let that stop us!"

Why? Because kindness and compassion can earn one extraordinary things in life, such as the respect of your opponents. These things are not promises, and are subject to that which is beyond one's control, but they are often reciprocated, and people are usually the better for it. Frankly, I'm glad you care enough about Nexus to want to make it better. I hope it continues to get better and make money for Kru. I think, unfortunately, that you were very badly burned by your own experiences playing the game, and not adept enough at collaborating with others in it.

Kind regards,
CinderZ
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darkmaverick
post Apr 27 2013, 07:05 AM
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QUOTE (Falaris @ Apr 26 2013, 03:07 PM) *
No, it really isn't true. The world is not black and white. I think my past on Nexus speaks for itself when it comes to what I believe in regard to changing things that I don't believe are right. However, in no way, shape, or form would I ever suggest that anything I did on Nexus compares to being for or against slavery.

I'm not really interested in getting into a long discussion with you and I have avoided the main point of this topic because A) I really don't care about Nexus, 2) I find it seriously amusing that people are still getting caught up in drama and arguments over this kind of nonsense, and D) lists are better in threes. Yet I jumped in here because it is flat out absurd to suggest that someone who ignores another person's silly rule in a fantasy game is akin to ignoring slavery and being a white supremacist. We are talking about players having a stupid restriction placed on them as far as how they choose to enjoy this game versus the ownership of other human beings' lives. That's not even on the same continent, much less in the same sport, much less in the same ballpark. Actually, it's not even on the same planet. You're on like, Pluto.

It's still a planet to me, damnit sad.gif


You clearly saw the word "slavery" and ignored everything else.

This is what I actually said:

QUOTE
[i]Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

When there are unfair rules, people are supposed to protest them and demand change. That's how social progress is made. [/i]


The argument I made was thus:

The position that, "when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules" is a position that echoes the pro-slavery arguments made during the Civil War (ex. "if you don't like slavery, don't live in a State with slavery!).

Because the position can be used to justify any number of morally reprehensible things, the position is obviously a bad one to adopt for even minor things.

That was my actual argument. I thought it pretty obvious.

QUOTE (CinderZ @ Apr 26 2013, 05:59 PM) *
Well, let's deconstruct this. It's always fun to redefine an opponent's position to one that few could possibly agree with. Unfortunately, it's not how reasonable discussion works. DarkMaverick presumes too early that the other side believes the rules are unfair. Many think it's a fair idea. Chonguns who train Warriors to be better Warriors feel that recipients of leeches are often ill-equipped and ill-informed on how to play the game well. Leechers aren't often very good trainers.


Uh, this is Nexus:TK, not World of Warcraft that demands actual strategy and skill (complex skill rotations based on builds, different pull strategies for different mob packs, raid bosses requiring different complex strategies like the safety dance, etc).

Nexus is not the most complicated game in the world to play. Warriors these days can just hold down spacebar to win. So the argument, "leeched people won't know how to play!!!" is pretty weak, if not retarded.

Also, as I said before, a majority decision does not make it a moral decision. Such a rule should not even have went up for a path vote to begin with, because it's so ridiculous.

QUOTE
DM, you compared a "try something else in another group" mindset to the beliefs of white supremacists, and that is beyond absurd. Doing this gets pageviews and attention, sure, but it also reveals a contempt for your opponent. It's fighting in the gutter, ignoring the original argument, and blatantly AD HOMINEM and REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM at the same time. Other examples of this style of poor argumentation include the oft-used Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies. ('You know who else thought your way.... HITLER!')


I didn't compare "try something else in another group" to the position of white supremacists. Go back and read the posts, it's clear you skimmed through them.

QUOTE
Now, highlighting that there are other possibilities than just fomenting a rebellion is entirely within the bounds of discussion. On that point... life is not always about tearing down other people's work. People play favorites. Leaders make bold decisions. Rebellions sometimes occur as a result. DarkMaverick, yours failed, years and years ago. It was a hell of an attempt, but a failure nonetheless. It was consistent with many tight-knit organizations with strong leadership. When people quit and/or are removed from organizations, reinstatement is rare for the leaders of very public and very embarrassing insurrections, rebellions, etc.

I agreed with many of your ideas for the Chonguns then, which is why I didn't choose a successor when I stepped down as Elder, and the path voted for the next Elder, Audi. Over time, the Chongun lore dramatically changed, and it was great that you had a hand in writing it. You have great ideas, but when it came to Nexus... you had terrible methods. One of your great ideas is a blind ballot. It ought to be implemented in more subpaths.

You write that the subpath system ruins this game & subpath leaders are tyrannical in nature but are blind to it because of their own hero complexes. For a few cases, this is true. Not for all cases. People are more inclined to remember the worst examples of abuses of power. The subpath system absolutely could be set up better, but would not be historically or fictionally faithful, as god-awful as some GMs and Archons have been over the years.


I know you haven't gotten to your point here, but I'm going to stop you right there at the point I put in bolds and correct you.

People are more inclined to remember the worst examples of abuses of power that the community became aware of.

Due to the secretive nature of the Archons, there is a whole lot of [Content removed] they have gotten away with that the community doesn't know about, because talking about it in or out of game tends to get people jailed / banned.

Also, the whole "it wouldn't be historically accurate" thing? There were no dragons in ancient Korea either. Actually, the Elder, Guide, etc system isn't historically accurate either. It came from a fantasy novel that had secret societies, whose name escapes me for the moment, but that ORB cited in his essay about subpaths on his website. Also he was inspired by the clans from Vampire: The Masquerade.

But here's the best reason why subpaths in Nexus aren't historically accurate:

If it had been RL, we wouldn't have needed to ask the Archons to remove anyone from Elder. The subpaths would depose bad leaders like this, which is the truly "historically accurate way" bad leaders are removed from power during that time period.

QUOTE
IMO, doing what you did so long ago -- announcing to the Nexus Community board (and oh god, what
that was...) that a subpath elder is handing off Eldership to a real-life relationship partner -- was revealing very personal information, and to many, that was an invasion of privacy.


Oh you must be joking.

Hey newer generations of Chonguns reading this, let me clarify what actually happened back then:

Originally, subpath Elders could only make a certain number of Guides. After they hit this number they were expected to step down from Elder.

When then-Elder Gildenstar maxed out on Guides, she decided to leech up a character called Neese which was played by her RL boyfriend while Gild leeched the chara up. Neese was brought into the path for the sole purpose of allowing Gildenstar to be Elder a second time, because once Neese passed Eldership back to Gildenstar, Gild would have more Guide slots, since she abandoned the path to reset her slots after giving Eldership to Neese. Gild then re-joined and was given instant Guideship back.

(For the record, this was considered bug abuse by NEXON, and her guide slots were locked by Kismet shortly before he got fired and the game basically didn't have an active GM who gave a damn (but did she step down? of course not. Not for many more months would she relinquish power).

Anyway, getting more Guide slots was not the sole purpose. Neese was also used to kick out Chonguns Gildenstar didn't particularly like but the path loved. Guide Gamefire protested and got swiftly kicked out himself, and after a tearful phone call from Gamefire that is when I came back to the game (I had just completed my initial MOS training in the Army when this all started) and attempted to get Gildenstar to see reason. I screenshoted the entire conversation because I could not believe the bull[Content removed] I was hearing from Gild and how far she had fallen. When I refused to agree with Gildenstar's master plan of kicking people out without needing to take the blame personally -- it could go to Neese instead -- and being Elder forever, Neese / Gild then kicked me out of the path, too. That's when I went public with what was going on and tried to get Gild removed from power.

CinderZ knows all this, because he was one of the people who was raised to Guide for kissing ass to Gildenstar during the whole crisis. He just didn't give a [Content removed]. So trying to pull a "shame on you for revealing personal info" is pretty pathetic. The only thing I regret about that crisis was that Gild remained in power, and the path has never fully recovered from it since the leadership has been tainted by the experience. The path has gone through all kinds of lunacy, especially that period with Alton as Elder. It was incompetent Elder after incompetent Elder.

The Chonguns were supposed to be the paladin equivalent of Nexus. Instead they've become people who like to speak the words of the creed but can't abide by them, and any decision by path vote is jeopardized by the immaturity of the membership who never had a proper role model to follow in the first place of what a Chongun should be. This anti-leeching rule wouldn't have been supported back in my day as Guide. Hell, we regularly hunted with our weaker members when possible, our own version of a clan hunt.

Gild and I buried that hatchet a long ass time ago, so I'm not saying this out of spite. I'm just clarifying the truth of the matter, since the BS people are spoonfed (mostly through that ridiculous post of Kamehameha in the path scroll, who btw was also raised to Guide as a reward for betraying the other Chonguns who were revolting in the path, giving their names to Gild so she could kick them out before they could take part in an Archon held path vote to have Gild removed). The people who remained in the path after that time were the ones who betrayed the very ideals the path was based on, and the people who joined have been tainted by the back-stabbing culture that remained. I tried many, many times to get the path back on track, but each time I got thwarted by people who wanted to preserve their sense of self-importance or other greed (ex. "Hey, maybe we shouldn't be charging aspirants 100 dark ambers to join the path?" which was one of Audi's trials for a time) and saw me as a threat to them becoming Elder / other influence.

tl:dr the scandal was not that it was her boyfriend. The scandal was that she was bug abusing and using an alt chara to kick people out of the path that she didn't have legit reasons to do so, and didn't want her main chara to get the heat for doing the dirty work. Her bf just happened to be a co-conspirator.

QUOTE
Was it the right thing to do? Again, I think it was the right idea but the wrong method, and it earned you many enemies and friends. Uprooting every subpath's culture and spreading freedom & democracy belies arrogance. Nexus was and continues to be a place shaped by ideas other than your own -- Neoconfucian ideas, Taoist ideas, Buddhist ideas, and ideas on Democracy.

So... not only do I believe that it is perfectly fine to tell people "Don't like this decision? Try another subpath!" Which, admittedly, can make us feel like this...

...in regards to subpaths themselves...

I think it is perfectly fine to tell people,

"Don't like this game? Accomplish something else in it!"

"Don't like subpath policies? Consult with subpaths in a respectful manner!"

"Have a good idea? Share it! It might be difficult to implement but don't let that stop us!"


It's actually not fine, because unlike World of Warcraft, Ragnarok Online or pretty much any other MMORPG, if you don't like what a group is doing you can't just form another group with the people who agree with you. There is finite number of subpaths, and that number is maxed out. Even with clans now, it doesn't seem possible to make more since the playerbase doesn't exist to support it.

If the game is going to have a finite number of groups total, the groups need to operate under something other than a charismatic dictatorship. Sure, some Elders are benevolent dictators, but that isn't always the case. And short of an Elder trying to disband the subpath, KRU doesn't really give a [Content removed] what silly rules Elders institute because they don't police their own police states, which means hard-coded tools should be added to subpaths that allow for things like silent votes or deposing an Elder by path vote.

Of course, that's just wishful thinking since, again, KRU doesn't give a [Content removed].

Also CinderZ you can butter your post with, "I kinda agree with you, I kinda don't", but at the end of the day you're trying to justify the Chonguns kicking out people on the basis that they help new players get to the point they can actually play with the rest of the active community.

I may have lost my Guideship by refusing to turn a blind eye to what Gild did back then, and gotten into more escapades over the years for continually refusing to pretend everything is fine and dandy when it's not, but at the end of the day I have something you and others in the path who were willing to play some Game of Thrones level political BS don't have: my integrity. And that's what actually makes a Chongun a Chongun, not some text over your path name.

And in a game that has always been about the community interaction and not the gameplay, you and other subpath leaders share blame with KRU for the dwindling player base. Had you all made better decisions things would not be the way they are today. The elitist viewpoints you cling to and willingness to turn a blind eye to injustices to preserve your personal political agendas (i.e. become Guide, Elder, Primogen, Archon, etc) have driven good people away from the game, and this path inevitably will result in the game shutting down for financial reasons, and all your achievements, histories, and reputation will be gone.

In short, your actions will result in the destruction of the very empires you've built. If it was any other game publisher, Nexus would have shut down a long time ago, but we're dealing with a company that operated on a skeleton crew to begin with so you've been fortunate. But there will inevitably come a point their model doesn't work and they are forced to file for bankruptcy. And I very much doubt NEXON will take over running a game like this.

Oh last thing:

QUOTE
I give a lot of credit to DarkMaverick for working so hard to get warrior whirlwind from 10 vitality ALWAYS TO an optional 10%. I remember that change. God, I'm old.


Let's be hypothetical and suppose things had worked out differently. NEXON did give a damn that Gild was bug abusing to the point she got stripped of Elder and jailed with something she couldn't use Pardon to remove from herself (like she did with her Sage abuse jailing). A path vote was actually held, and I was made Elder.

If events had worked out like that, do you think the game would still be in the state it is right now? Sure, Eldridge and I didn't get along, but I did convince him to change Whirlwind. Kismet also liked me. mug especially liked me. I was able to get a hell of a lot accomplished behind the scenes when mug was around.

Despite never holding a political office higher than Guide I was able to accomplish things usually only achieved by Elders and Archons. So dont you think that maybe -- just maybe-- had I actually been Elder of the Chonguns and the GMs had to meet with me every week, I might have persuaded them to implement a lot of better changes for the whole community years ago, and things might not suck as hard today? Or even make some better quota round choices that gave the path better tools for community engagement and assist roleplaying? And because the other Elders would have had to actually listen to me every week, I could have also persuaded them to make wiser decisions on their round requests.

In the end, we'll never know for sure, but I think if Eldership was viewed less as an end-goal and more as a means to speak with the developers to impact positive change for the whole community (rather than just individual paths and the glory that can be obtained from naming subpath maps after yourself...) things would be different.


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LouisVuitton
post Apr 27 2013, 07:50 AM
Post #38


Il san
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QUOTE (OhHowSoCute @ Apr 24 2013, 04:08 PM) *
If anyone wants to start some drama, pull a guldar.

Step 1: Get whiny and leave the path, email kru saying you are going to quit if guldar's head isn't on a plate.
Step 2: Lead revolt
Step 3: suck some [Content removed]
Step 4: become elder

But seriously, I think it would be mighty funny if the community outraged about this, and overthrew him for something so dumb. At least he's consistent though. He is the most holier than thou guy in the world.



So who emailed kru saying they would quit if Guldars head wasn't on a plate?

Guldar did this before? What a prick.


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Cuchulain
post Apr 27 2013, 10:27 AM
Post #39


Level 99
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Group: Citizens
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Member No.: 707
Characters: Cuchulain, YogSim, rekinoM



For the record: The rule isn't that you can't help people get to 99. The rule is you can't afk leech them while they're boxed in by horses, and you can't receive leeches yourself. This is also not a new rule, just a clarification of an old one.


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solman
post Apr 27 2013, 10:45 AM
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Oh san
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You sure about that cuchulain? Pretty sure it was all leeching especially if paid for even if your not boxed in and walking around. you have to contribute to the group and no cash can exchange hands either for the leech or to accept $ for said leech.

Either way I personally find it hard to believe the whole path voted and the majority now a days is against leeching when 99% of this game your expected to and its common place. Just saying, its not like we had thousands of players in the past sure but the stat gap is so much bigger now then it was back then so finding said hunts is impossible. What took maybe a 1/2 hour just to find a hunt you might find in maybe 6 hours of begging and pleading. If your lucky. Most now just wont touch a subpath until they are leeched said stats then join later. But whatever it takes man. People will find work around no matter if they make up rules or not. It will not stop. But the fact that the elder does leech on alts or has accepted it in the past makes it a conflict of interest does it not? You cant take any rule seriously that the elder enforced but yet has done just the opposite in the past.


Its all semantics anyways. You dont want to leech, you will rarely find a hunt. You want stats without leeching you go to the black market and buy a character with stats already. Do a name change and boom your in biz. Your either with the change or against it. but dont think rules like no leech policies are going to change anything in nexus. Its not what is wrong with the game.


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