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Politics And Roleplay |
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Jul 18 2007, 11:41 AM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 508
Joined: 3-January 07
Member No.: 1,548
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That usually goes without saying, though...
We all have our own experiences with it, myself included. My ulterior motive behind this was, also, to see if the people who might be able to do something about it were actually trying... My opinion so far is that either people are being dishonest and not taking advantage of anonymity or, with the exception of a few, the people who I would think _can_ make (or could have made) even a small difference are either hypocrites or just aren't trying. Now I could just be reading too much into it...
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Jul 18 2007, 01:56 PM
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Il san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 195
Joined: 9-July 06
From: Seattle
Member No.: 231
Characters: SilentNights
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Yes, I once held a position of power in my path (some would argue that even as a walker I still do), three or four times actually. I was a 'powerful' person in the path for my time. Some would say I was great even. But when compared to people like Loco, Wimp, Ender, and so on, my accomplishments pale. No, I'm not a guide anymore, and its not because Winder and I openly fought, it was because I held our guides and our elders to certain standards, standards which I believed at the time had fallen, so in true SN style I went ballistic and got myself demoted (which was my goal anyway =P)
When I was made a guide (like...2 weeks before Crumble stepped down), I was basically thrown into the biggest political mess ever in our path's history (Kingdom banishment being the most prevelent and the only thing I will discuss publically). This how I learned how to be a guide, in that [Content removed] storm. I did the typical guide thing and made walkers and so on before I realized that being a guide, more importantly being a leader, sucked in the hardest way possible. Being the stubborn person I am, I decided I wasn't going to play that game anymore and started doing things the way I wanted. I started big fights based on little posts on COTW to great effect, publically insulted members of the ministries, the royals, clans, subpaths, and so on. What a good deal of people failed to realize was I was just playing a part, and that in no way was that who -I- am. Had these people even bothered to read the whispers or the mail I sent them, there would have been zero problems, but instead they just saw one crazy Barbarian running his mouth (never once used profanity, ever) and trying to pick a fight. Hell, once I even slapped Lasahn for touching my axe (my personal favorite time in nexus ever, whoever played Lasahn that day, you did a wonderful job of RP'ing). Then, it all went down hill from there.
The point of that story is simple. People with position and power are not there to just revel in their own splendor and gaze in amazement of the abilites they have. They are there to serve the organization their position is in. Many, many people forget this as time goes on, even I did for a time. We, as humans, get complacient in the position we're in and become selfish people, the fact that nexus is basically all player run does not help that fact. It takes the right kind of people to remember what their job is and to keep doing it. Being a leader is hell, plain and simple. Its a job, not a reward. Sure you can mark people, forge your own path items, admit people, dismiss people, and so on, but you do those things for your path, not just for yourself. Its like I told the very few number of walkers I created: "Now that you are in my path, you represent me at all times. You act like a fool, and I will hear about it. You 'shoo' off the community and you make all of us look bad, and I will find out. And no matter what punishment you get as a result of your actions, the punishment I give to you will be far worse. I will not stand to have someone come into my path and ruin everything I've worked for."
As for 'fixing' the problem, alot of people say to themselves: 'Well what can I do about it? Nothing.' the defeatest additude of the community is what allows things to continue as they are and progressivly get worse. People need to take a hard line on things that they know to not be right and not yield on them. It takes a fair bit of courage, and yes, there will be consequences to taking such action. People want to have a good reputation within the community, and I don't blame them. I like to think that I have a good one, and I didn't get it by kissing ass and looking the other way on things that were flat out wrong. I've fought with Elders, guides, archons, Kru, and guess what? I'm still here (not reg'd, and thats not the point). Look at it this way, alot of current people in positions of servitude didn't earn it till long after they had been in that position. Before I was a guide, I was quiet and kept to myself, a year after being a guide is when I felt I had finally earned it. So cowboy up folks, thats all it really takes to make change.
SN
PS: and for the record, I was demoted for restoring a mark that was rightfully earned and taken away unjustly in my oppinion. I stand by my decision now, just as I did then. No, the mark is not there still and I cannot change that now, but my 'honor' remains intact and hopfully it made an impact to everyone in that circle.
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Jul 19 2007, 01:11 AM
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Oh san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 5,152
Joined: 3-July 06
Member No.: 46
Characters: Falaris, everclear
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QUOTE(Ishy @ Jul 18 2007, 11:41 AM) [snapback]36891[/snapback] That usually goes without saying, though...
We all have our own experiences with it, myself included. My ulterior motive behind this was, also, to see if the people who might be able to do something about it were actually trying... My opinion so far is that either people are being dishonest and not taking advantage of anonymity or, with the exception of a few, the people who I would think _can_ make (or could have made) even a small difference are either hypocrites or just aren't trying. Now I could just be reading too much into it...
After awhile you realizing there is no point in 'fighting for the right thing' any longer. -Falaris
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Jul 19 2007, 04:43 PM
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Oh san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 5,152
Joined: 3-July 06
Member No.: 46
Characters: Falaris, everclear
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QUOTE(Laren @ Jul 19 2007, 01:37 AM) [snapback]36919[/snapback] Politics is just what happens when people hold very different views on things they mutually find important. Disagreement is disagreeable, but it's the only way to reach a good conclusion. Everyone would be happier if things were just done their way, but unfortunately, things can't be done in a way -everyone- likes. So, politics in its many forms attempts to find the best compromise.
That is fair and true, in that everyone can't agree on everything. The issue is, however, not that people are disagreeing for the right reasons, but that there are many people in positions for the wrong reasons. I don't think real life threats have much place in politics. -Falaris
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Jul 19 2007, 10:53 PM
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Il san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 249
Joined: 4-July 06
From: The Geomancer Circle, normally
Member No.: 60
Characters: Rhew, Deimh
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Here are my answers:
Are you, yourself, an active roleplayer in the Nexus community? This didn't really have an applicable answer for me. I roleplay when I'm out in the Community, and I have written RP events and try to encourage it amoungst my Walkers. However I tend not to leave the circle much, so I wouldn't say I'm "in the nexus community" much.
Are you, on any of your characters, in a position of leadership or influence? Yes, subpath related
Do you, or did you, as an influential person, perceive yourself to be "above" other players in any sort of way? Do be honest. Absolutely not.
As a non-leader, do you perceive those in a higher position than you to hold the above perception? Not applicable.
As a roleplayer, what is your primary motive? Fun and creativity.
I share the same concern as Ishida does. The pattern of Nexus at this point in history is all about politics. I find personally that I have to do so much politicing as Elder (and this was an issue as a Guide too, though not as severe) that I rarely have the time and energy left for roleplaying, development, and creativity.
It seems to me we are all so afraid of people's reactions. I am guilty of this as well. Take for instance, we had a fun little story with Hooje where she stole my soul and ripped Julia's soul in half. Halome marked her Disruptor of Balance for crimes against our family. However, we made sure to ask Widget first because we didn't want her going crazy and holding a grudge against the Geomancers forever, subsequently causing trouble down the road.
Now, in my opinion this shouldn't be an issue at all. Us DOBing Hooje should have no outstanding, out of character, baring with the Shaman. Hooje had committed what we perceived to be a crime against us, and so we retaliated with punishment. It didn't have anything to do with the Shaman at all. And yet, it was completely necissary to make sure things "were all cool" before acting.
Another interesting issue where politics interfered with roleplay: The Shaman (my they are a troublesome group) were trying to start a war with the Rangers. The Rangers asked us to come and battle against the Shaman with them. Halome's response was, "We are pacifists, we cannot take part in your small war."
After this when Earth's Dragon went missing, I had a few snarky little arseholes whispering things like "You're lucky I'm even helping. Most of us refuse!". And it was just like, "We wouldn't break our SACRED VALUES for you so you won't help us look for our Dragon? Even though you guys are trackers?" Because we wouldn't break character for them, they decided to hold a grudge.
I know this wasn't a decision made by the entire Ranger path, but some members decided politics was more important than roleplay, and it really ticked me off.
Politicing is an issue. I don't know the solution, or how to sway the balance so that roleplay is the most important factor in decisions and path development.
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Jul 20 2007, 01:55 AM
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Oh san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 5,152
Joined: 3-July 06
Member No.: 46
Characters: Falaris, everclear
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QUOTE(Rhew @ Jul 19 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]36987[/snapback]
It seems to me we are all so afraid of people's reactions. I am guilty of this as well. Take for instance, we had a fun little story with Hooje where she stole my soul and ripped Julia's soul in half. Halome marked her Disruptor of Balance for crimes against our family. However, we made sure to ask Widget first because we didn't want her going crazy and holding a grudge against the Geomancers forever, subsequently causing trouble down the road.
Now, in my opinion this shouldn't be an issue at all. Us DOBing Hooje should have no outstanding, out of character, baring with the Shaman. Hooje had committed what we perceived to be a crime against us, and so we retaliated with punishment. It didn't have anything to do with the Shaman at all. And yet, it was completely necissary to make sure things "were all cool" before acting.
This is the root of the problem. Not that I am going to discuss Widget (right now at least), I mean the way roleplay events work in Nexus now. Everything must be scripted and it must be "ok" with everyone to red mark someone and stuff like that. It is really disappointing too. I took Widget's mark because I didn't feel she had any values even remotely relating to being trustworthy, hence I took her mark. Like I said, I would have gladly kept my curse (though it was pretty messed up when she dragged my wife into it from a previous altercation and called for her head too) but the gods got involved and made us put everything back the way it was. THAT IS RETARDED. Now, my name is on Widget's legend for the TT mark. And I hope everyone who ever sees it knows it was put there with the utmost disgust and sarcasm and is more of a scorn than not having the mark in the first place. -Falaris
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Jul 20 2007, 08:54 AM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 424
Joined: 8-July 06
From: Waterbury, CT, USA
Member No.: 212
Characters: Erucolindo Darkath Isendier
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If the gods got involved in that, they should have gotten involved when she booted en mass a bunch of shamans. Many of whom were active, contributing members to the path, maybe even an ex-head guide! They were unjustly removed from a path they worked on, but the gods didn't get involved with that.
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_________________ _________________ _________________ Erucolindo Solinarus Ambassador of the Buyan Imperial Army "From the dawn of our species, Man has been blessed with curiosity. Our most precious gift, without exception, is the desire to know more - to look beyond what is accepted as the truth and to imagine what is possible."
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Jul 20 2007, 10:06 AM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 424
Joined: 8-July 06
From: Waterbury, CT, USA
Member No.: 212
Characters: Erucolindo Darkath Isendier
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those booted and those within the path were allowed to vote. But there was clearly some pressure to those within the clan, and also the fact that there were supposed to be no new members added during the voting time, and I had heard a couple say there were rush-added if agreed to vote for her. Then of course, most of the people booted were unregged or inactive, so no vote from them, doesn't make up for the few who were wronged, and unfortunately, their fate should not have been put to a vote like that, there was just no chance statistically speaking.
Regardless, with or without a vote, there were people who were totally unjustly removed from that path, and I know, at least for me, the shaman path has been permanently marred in my mind. When Widget is finally gone, I'd like to see how things change.
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_________________ _________________ _________________ Erucolindo Solinarus Ambassador of the Buyan Imperial Army "From the dawn of our species, Man has been blessed with curiosity. Our most precious gift, without exception, is the desire to know more - to look beyond what is accepted as the truth and to imagine what is possible."
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Jul 20 2007, 10:38 AM
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Level 99
Group: Citizens
Posts: 57
Joined: 8-May 07
From: Middle of Nowhere, TX
Member No.: 2,341
Characters: Ayiana
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QUOTE(Erucolindo @ Jul 20 2007, 10:06 AM) [snapback]37021[/snapback] When Widget is finally gone, I'd like to see how things change.
Well they certainly couldn't get any worse. Is it also true that the Shaman path is the only path that is not participating in the new subpath planning room meetings? Sorry for all the questions, but my lack of playing nexus very much lately leaves me hearing all sorts of rumors and no way to really confirm them other than asking here. If it is true then it really is a shame. The Shamans had some of the most intriguing roleplay and interesting history. And historically I held them in higher reguards than many other paths. Their founder is about as legendary as one possibly gets in nexus. It'd be disheartening to see them not participating in the very meetings that should be trying to bring roleplay back to life.
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Jul 20 2007, 11:38 AM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 508
Joined: 3-January 07
Member No.: 1,548
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QUOTE(Rhew @ Jul 19 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]36987[/snapback] It seems to me we are all so afraid of people's reactions. I am guilty of this as well. Take for instance, we had a fun little story with Hooje where she stole my soul and ripped Julia's soul in half. Halome marked her Disruptor of Balance for crimes against our family. However, we made sure to ask Widget first because we didn't want her going crazy and holding a grudge against the Geomancers forever, subsequently causing trouble down the road.
This is /precisely/ the problem. Few are willing to roleplay negative actions, such as red marking, at all for a couple of reasons: griefers and the mob mentality of the player subpaths. "We don't want the path to look bad, so it's unacceptable for a walker to have red marks. Anyone who issues my walker a red mark is in for some trouble." QUOTE Now, in my opinion this shouldn't be an issue at all. Us DOBing Hooje should have no outstanding, out of character
I'd just like to interject that "Disruptor of Balance" is Hooje. My opinion is that the mark should have been issued, and if the path started throwing a fit over it, letting them know that their objections are irrelevant. You would have had the evidence of her actions, Hooje would have spoken in your favor, and the problem would have lasted five minutes. (Unfortunately, not everyone is like Hooje and myself in our acceptance of red marks without all of the whining and crying...) QUOTE Politics is just what happens when people hold very different views on things they mutually find important. Disagreement is disagreeable, but it's the only way to reach a good conclusion. Everyone would be happier if things were just done their way, but unfortunately, things can't be done in a way -everyone- likes. So, politics in its many forms attempts to find the best compromise.
I would normally agree with you. If the politics were in-character and game related, this thread wouldn't be here. The problem lies in the fact that so many people are willing to break character for the sake of inciting trouble... OOC threats issued by anyone in this game are unacceptable. The same stands for any politics that lie out of the scope of the game.
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Jul 20 2007, 11:51 AM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 424
Joined: 8-July 06
From: Waterbury, CT, USA
Member No.: 212
Characters: Erucolindo Darkath Isendier
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The issue with RP red marks is yuri's down the line the RP has long since left and this character is now still branded with a red SP mark, and there are many groups out there that will not let you in with any red marks. Now personally, lets say someone applied for the BIA and they had a red mark, such as DOB, or something similiar, if they explained to me the circumstances of the mark, mainly, that it was for RP reasons and whatnot, I would have no issue with them joining the BIA, BUT:
a) Other people will only see a BIA soldier with a subpath branding
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B ) Not all groups are willing or care to check on such research, or make such exceptions.
I know I would be VERY leery to accept a red mark, even in RP sense, for just these reasons.
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_________________ _________________ _________________ Erucolindo Solinarus Ambassador of the Buyan Imperial Army "From the dawn of our species, Man has been blessed with curiosity. Our most precious gift, without exception, is the desire to know more - to look beyond what is accepted as the truth and to imagine what is possible."
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Jul 20 2007, 12:16 PM
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Il san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 195
Joined: 9-July 06
From: Seattle
Member No.: 231
Characters: SilentNights
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I treasure my Dishonored the Kingdoms mark. Surprisingly it was something I wanted, and something I had earned. In some ways it was planned, but not really. It went something like this...
Middle of a raid
SN: Hey! You should mark me DtK!
Chongun: What?! You would WANT that?
SN: Hell yes! It would be sweet.
Chongun: Ok...here ya go.
I could get it removed, I believe, easily enough, but why would I want to? The marks on our legend gained through RP should remain, period.
As for the Shaman/Merchant thing. If any one posting here was there for the tribunal meeting held shortly after that all happened, you should remember my unloading a piece of my mind on the archons, elders, and guides there, so you should know where I stand on the matter. To sum it up in a few words: Not once have you archons ever been interested in roleplay, and now you want to keep it in check? You can take your mark tracking system and shove it.
Yeah...I got booted for that. Though, I heard after my 10 minute speech or so, other people started yelling about it openly too...funny..
SN
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Jul 20 2007, 12:28 PM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 508
Joined: 3-January 07
Member No.: 1,548
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Nice, SN. Red marks are a part of roleplay. If a person is marked, then either he has considered all of the possible repercussions of his actions or he is simply a griefer. It's up to each individual to decide which it is, and through real interaction with a person, it is always obvious... If you don't want to make that executive decision only to deal with the politics of "OUR (MY) ENEMY IS IN YOUR MIDST! *Lynch!*" (You know, the legitimate IC type if not taken too far...) then I can certainly understand; but, all things personal aside, I would also consider you a weak leader.
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Jul 20 2007, 12:53 PM
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Sam san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 1,236
Joined: 4-July 06
Member No.: 70
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QUOTE(Erucolindo @ Jul 20 2007, 09:51 AM) [snapback]37029[/snapback] The issue with RP red marks is yuri's down the line the RP has long since left and this character is now still branded with a red SP mark, and there are many groups out there that will not let you in with any red marks. Now personally, lets say someone applied for the BIA and they had a red mark, such as DOB, or something similiar, if they explained to me the circumstances of the mark, mainly, that it was for RP reasons and whatnot, I would have no issue with them joining the BIA, BUT:
a) Other people will only see a BIA soldier with a subpath branding
and
B ) Not all groups are willing or care to check on such research, or make such exceptions.
I know I would be VERY leery to accept a red mark, even in RP sense, for just these reasons.
A group should only refuse a person with a red mark if the red mark is something that goes against the group's ideals. For instance, the BIA should accept people with Enemy of the Barbarians, deny people with Dishonorable Trader, negative Chongun marks, etc., and be neutral on things like Disruptor of Balance and Forsaken the Tao because they don't pertain to loyalty and all the things needed from a soldier. Unfortunately, red marks are very rarely used for RP now, and are mostly just a, "we hate you" mark. If you tick off Shamans, you get cursed, if you tick off Diviners, you get Forsaken the Tao, etc. The same goes for positive marks. Mostly they are just traded around between path Guides, and rarely earned. Or, they are given to prominent people. "Oh, wow, you're powerful and you don't have every positive mark ever?! I don't care if you're just an (insert path here) Guide/Elder and have no RP history or experience in nature, you're clearly a Protector of it." Bleh.
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Jul 20 2007, 01:02 PM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 424
Joined: 8-July 06
From: Waterbury, CT, USA
Member No.: 212
Characters: Erucolindo Darkath Isendier
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Enemy of the Barbarians and Enemy of Leviathan are the only ones we accept, both for pretty obvious reasons. The "neutral" marks, while not specifically based on any of our ideals, are more a matter of the type of "citizens" that we like to have in our ranks.
Chances are, if you've done something to warrant DoB, or FtT, then you probably won't mesh well with our general policies.
As for people not earning their marks, its hard to say, I mean, I've been in a subpath for awhile, though not in any position of power therein, and in the army, I'm the Colonel, certainly not the most prestigious role, but decent in its own right.
I have none of the marks from any subpath in either direction, so I'm not sure that having a prominent position earns them for you. I was under the impression that if you showed up to many events of a particular path, and showed a genuine interest in what they do, were NEVER disruptive or disrespectful, that over time, you would receive the mark.
Obviously some of them don't apply to these rules, like trustworthy trader, or whatnot, but I think its really a matter of priority, if you have the time to really make yourself known by a particular path, then they will acknowledge you.
As for guides and elders being handed marks, well... I don't know that thats really something that is even needed to be debated anymore ;-)
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_________________ _________________ _________________ Erucolindo Solinarus Ambassador of the Buyan Imperial Army "From the dawn of our species, Man has been blessed with curiosity. Our most precious gift, without exception, is the desire to know more - to look beyond what is accepted as the truth and to imagine what is possible."
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Jul 20 2007, 01:08 PM
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Il san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 195
Joined: 9-July 06
From: Seattle
Member No.: 231
Characters: SilentNights
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To be fair, not all guides/elders are just giving out marks. Only ones I have are Druid and Ranger, both were something that I earned for a long time. DtK was the only one I didn't really 'work' for, that is, unless you count RP'ing a war-mongering Barbarian. =P
SN
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Jul 20 2007, 01:16 PM
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Ee san
Group: Nobles
Posts: 508
Joined: 3-January 07
Member No.: 1,548
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Personally, I think that Laren's post about how to decide which marks to accept and which not to accept makes a lot more sense than making a judgement call on what kind of person the character is through his legend. (To me that's just extremely silly because you include people who have no skills whatsoever as a roleplayer, while excluding someone who could bring with him a lot of potential...) On top of that, it's more subjective, which to an extent remedies the "I just don't like you and I'm going to see what I can do to keep you out" attitude. :/
Again, since forums are OOC, I don't mean anything personal by this. I must emphasize, though, that if you're in that leadership role, then it's up to you to make that executive decision. If you need a cop-out like "You have x red mark, and while it doesn't have anything to do with this group, my hands are tied," then you really shouldn't be in that position. Doing so does much more harm than it does good, I assure you...
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