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> Rogue Still Sucks, with solution that everyone will like 99%
Rivia
post Dec 12 2008, 12:52 AM
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tl;dr: WARRIOR STILL > ROGUE


I've calculated the new damage chart for both rogue and warrior with the new ingress and damage spell from Ixeus/AZN. FYI I'm only talking about EE+ Warrior/Rogue in this post. In term of hunting only.

In term of damage, Rogue still sucks in comparison to warrior by 5-20%. So until one hit stats, warrior still outclassed rogues.
And this is in terms of damage ONLY, NOT counting overflow, NOT counting that rogue disadvantage everytime he hits a monster that makes him invis out (pressing invis requires 1 swing time), NOT counting bad mage, NOT counting that rogue disadvantage on vita attack since rogue needs poet with skill and similar mana to cycle to be effective

Also, most poet LIKES to cycle warrior better than rogue plus and most mage likes to set warrior better since warrior's set doesn't really have to be perfect to be effective.

The only little thing that make rogue better than warrior is that from R1-R5, warrior sucks in damage. C1 > R4 and C2 > R5 but then again at R6 their damage is significantly bigger. On average, Warrior's damage > Rogue's

So after R6 warrior will be very powerful, plus they already got Overflow. Even though rogues do better damage before ilsan, 99 vita warriors can even do great in CY by just overflow.

SO THE MAIN PROBLEM BEFORE UPDATE STILL EXISTS: ROGUES STILL DOESN'T GET HUNT EQUALLY (or at least similar) AS WARRIORS OR MAGE OR POET DOES BECAUSE THEY ARE USELESS IN A HUNT

tl;dr
Seriously there are only 3 solutions to this "rogue sucks" problem (which only one could be chosen for the sake of balance):
1) EITHER Old, Quick, and simple solution: Give them overflow at sam san+. Seriously, what's wrong with giving rogue overflow. Both paths will benefit from this when cunning and rage doesn't really make a difference in hunts. This will make bigger rogues at least desirable in hunts and poets will be more willing to cycle them.
2) OR New and More interesting solution: Give Rogue Ingress spell that is based on stats (e.g. x6 at 1.5m vita/750k mana, x8 at 1.8m vita/900k mana, x10 at 2m vita/1m mana, x15 at 2.5m vita/1.25m mana) so they will still be useful in hunts by hitting really hard and their damage grow as their stats grow. Warriors will hit less and less damage but since they can overflow they will not lose on hunt except to those with bigger stats.
3) OR Lazy Kru solution: Give rogue ability to increase experience of the whole group by 150% (unstackable, means 2 rogue still give the same exp increase). Well, because it's only 150% the rogue will still have to contribute in hitting/sleep trapping to make the exp better for the group.


Comment on concept, not number. Number could be changed. E.g. they could give rogue overflow but only 80%, so they don't make the same overflow damage.
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Doctor
post Dec 12 2008, 01:01 AM
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Rogues and warriors aren't supposed to do the same dmg otherwise why would you be a warrior, you'd just be a rogue without ambush or invis or ka's that don't depend totally on your vita.

Why are people so dumb?


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Rivia
post Dec 12 2008, 01:05 AM
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I'm not saying that they should do the same dmg but in hunting rogue sucks so bad that they don't get hunt.

Warrior could duo with poet, rogue need poet and good setter to be effective before one hit stats. Currently, even after one hit stats, warrior with less stats still outclass them.

Comment on concept, not number. Number could be changed. E.g. they could give rogue overflow but only 80%, so they don't make the same overflow damage.
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Doctor
post Dec 12 2008, 01:14 AM
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It's hard to hunt if you don't have friends, that's it. If you're dedicated you can go duo or trio just like a warrior. Rogues are not the main DPS path and should not pull in the same exp or relatively close to the same exp in a duo or a trio until they can one hit. They were not designed for that they were designed to be the more appealing PK path.

Clearly Nexon has done this in all of their games not only nexus/baram so why are people still going on about it?

This is as silly to me as saying fighter paths need an HF.


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aceupmysleeve
post Dec 12 2008, 02:05 AM
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QUOTE
It's hard to hunt if you don't have friends, that's it. If you're dedicated you can go duo or trio just like a warrior.


If I believe it I can do it?!@?@?@


And I always thought they were tryin to keep the black man down.
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Blackh
post Dec 12 2008, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (Halbarad @ Dec 12 2008, 02:05 AM) *
And I always thought they were tryin to keep the black man down.



I find that offensive as an African American.


I agree with Doctor, Rogues and Warriors shouldn't be alike but at the same time they should be able to get hunts equally.
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Rivia
post Dec 12 2008, 03:04 AM
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Martian is my first language and English is my second so sorry if I couldn't explain better but:

Getting hunts equally IS THE ISSUE HERE thanks blackh

Useful in hunt = get hunts so my solution(s) are for rogue to be useful in hunts.
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Conro
post Dec 12 2008, 04:00 AM
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Personally I think Invis shouldn't be removed when you swing.

The biggest pain in the ass as a rogue is we get ONE swing per second, warriors get 2-3.

If the only things that took invis off were comma and dispell, it'd be nice.

Actually, to balance things, it should also remove if you hit an enemy's front side, as you're being detected. Side/back shouldn't. That's hard to program though, so even easier, just make Ambush not remove it, thus preventing rogues from becoming invisible warriors (sit and swing...).


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SilentS
post Dec 12 2008, 08:00 AM
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Invis is rather backwards. If anything you should lose invis when you GET hit. Not when you hit something. If you get hit, basicly means you have been found and your cover blown. But you attacking while invis, just means the target/victim has no clue where you are. No invis should not stay on you 100% of the time, but it does need some corrections to it.


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Cadre
post Dec 12 2008, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE (SilentS @ Dec 12 2008, 08:00 AM) *
Invis is rather backwards. If anything you should lose invis when you GET hit. Not when you hit something. If you get hit, basicly means you have been found and your cover blown. But you attacking while invis, just means the target/victim has no clue where you are. No invis should not stay on you 100% of the time, but it does need some corrections to it.



It could go both ways. When you hit something then they know where you are. If I was to tap someones back from behind, they would know I am behind them. Then you can just cast invis and they will lose track of you again.
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Milli
post Dec 12 2008, 11:43 AM
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Looking at your swing damage chart, it seems fairly even to me. War's do have 5-20% more overall swing damage, but they also have to deal with worsened ac's with their rages. Currently, rogues are moderate damage dealers with high survivability, while wars are slightly better damage dealers with high risk. I am very glad to see that the gap between war and rogue swing damage has been narrowed a bit by the new ingresses. Others may not share my sentiments, but I am much more likely to hunt with a rogue now than I was before.


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HaKSaW
post Dec 12 2008, 12:20 PM
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rogues not getting hunts is community mentality, not math.


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aceupmysleeve
post Dec 12 2008, 12:41 PM
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Figured Id give a rightful reply since Blackh sees himself as an 'African American' and got offended.

1) EITHER Old, Quick, and simple solution: Give them overflow at sam san+. Seriously, what's wrong with giving rogue overflow. Both paths will benefit from this when cunning and rage doesn't really make a difference in hunts. This will make bigger rogues at least desirable in hunts and poets will be more willing to cycle them.

How does this fix the gap between Ee-1hit? Give rogues overflow so that at one hit stats they have something to look forward to?
1 hit rogues don't really have That much of a problem... they have a problem but not as big as ee-1hit, which was semi-fixed but
we'll have to see.

2) OR New and More interesting solution: Give Rogue Ingress spell that is based on stats (e.g. x6 at 1.5m vita/750k mana, x8 at 1.8m vita/900k mana, x10 at 2m vita/1m mana, x15 at 2.5m vita/1.25m mana) so they will still be useful in hunts by hitting really hard and their damage grow as their stats grow. Warriors will hit less and less damage but since they can overflow they will not lose on hunt except to those with bigger stats.

I'd like this except that at once point they will be like r6 proportionate damage in high caves and then what? IT also has nothing to do with
ee-1hit stats once again. I'm sure it's a solution everyone will like 99%.

3) OR Lazy Kru solution: Give rogue ability to increase experience of the whole group by 150% (unstackable, means 2 rogue still give the same exp increase). Well, because it's only 150% the rogue will still have to contribute in hitting/sleep trapping to make the exp better for the group.

This isn't a solution at all, not even a lazy kru solution.
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These are solutions that 1 hit rogues will like, but they won't see them as solutions... just upgrades.

ty





Solution that needs to be done is a unique group support ability, rather than focusing on damage, otherwise rogues should get
a weak vita attack that takes very low amounts of vita/stats with low aethers... so they can just continuously break down mobs
and also increase damage of rogue weapons and bring them away from using polearms. Then rogues dont have to worry about
being forced out of invis, and they have an easier way of applying the weak vita attack and they never waste a hit (since they dont
have to worry about staying invis... just recasting invis).
The vita attack would be compared to like.. a super crit hit I guess, and this is what rogues were made for... killing 1 mob quickly while
warriors kill groups (w/ polearm).
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SilentS
post Dec 12 2008, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (Cadre @ Dec 12 2008, 06:40 AM) *
It could go both ways. When you hit something then they know where you are. If I was to tap someones back from behind, they would know I am behind them. Then you can just cast invis and they will lose track of you again.
True, but was thinking along the lines that if you are hidden when you hit somebody, you will still have a chance of remaining hidden even when they turn around. Just because somebody feels it, it does not mean they know where it came from. If anything, just the direction it came from.


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Doctor
post Dec 12 2008, 09:42 PM
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If you want to hunt easier and pk harder be a war, if you want to find a hunt less easy but pk better be a rogue. SIMPLE.


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Destyn
post Dec 12 2008, 10:16 PM
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No, all path should have equal opportunity to hunt and PK. Yes, rogues have an advantage in PK. Yes, warriors have an advantage in hunting. However, the gap between the two paths in their respective strengths needs to be narrowed. You should not be limited as to what you can do so much just because of the path you chose.

Since roleplay isn't really that big in nexus anymore, you should be able to both PK and hunt without a problem. Warriors need something in PK, rogues need something in hunting. This has already been established.


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Doctor
post Dec 12 2008, 10:30 PM
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It's been this way since the start of the game and I imagine it is the way in baram. If you want things to change you should pick a different game.


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Gerdi
post Dec 12 2008, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Dec 12 2008, 10:30 PM) *
It's been this way since the start of the game and I imagine it is the way in baram. If you want things to change you should pick a different game.



Have you ever heard of a word called 'progress'? That's the dumbest argument I've ever seen. If everyone allowed everything to remain how it was at it's initial beginning, then nothing would change, and nothing would improve.

"If you want things to change, you better just do something different!" Oh god, please just [Content removed]ing go away. That is seriously the dumbest [Content removed] ever


My lord
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Destyn
post Dec 12 2008, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Dec 12 2008, 10:30 PM) *
It's been this way since the start of the game and I imagine it is the way in baram. If you want things to change you should pick a different game.


Heh, it wasn't this imbalanced since the start of the game. The introduction of overflow/polearms threw off huge balance, and that is just two examples.


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Rachel
post Dec 12 2008, 11:25 PM
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Rivia, what did you use for might? What does dam/rage number come from and mean? How did you correct for the different times of the spells?

If your numbers are correct and I'm reading the data correctly, it looks like Sa san warriors do more swing damage than Sa san rogues, but Sa san rogues do more swing damage than Sam san warriors? That's how it should be.

Overflow issues still may need to be worked out, but it looks like swing damage is pretty fair as long as they fix Invis so that it doesn't wear off and create some better rogue-only one handed weapons.


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