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> Hit Vs. Damage
Virk
post Jun 21 2007, 10:34 AM
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I was wondering what they really do. I see a lot of warriors running arround with Deamon hearts that have more hit and I always figured that Luck amulets would be better given they all a lot more damage. Do wars get more of a boost having more hit then dam?
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Vortextk
post Jun 21 2007, 12:20 PM
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I believe that because of how the damage formulas are setup, warriors get a boost to damage from dam, but rogues get a LOT more. Thus, you see rogues maxing out their damage, especially early on, because they only get backstab/flank by raising their cunning and they get more out of damage than warriors anyway. Warriors are always able to hit 8 monsters with a PA right out of the box because of self buffs and since damage isn't as helpful as it is on rogues, a lot of hit can help them hit the corner targets better.

Also, hearts are usually cheaper =P

I believe that's all correct but not 100%.


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Tynan
post Jun 21 2007, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE(Virk @ Jun 21 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]35459[/snapback]

I was wondering what they really do. I see a lot of warriors running arround with Deamon hearts that have more hit and I always figured that Luck amulets would be better given they all a lot more damage. Do wars get more of a boost having more hit then dam?


Frog is correct in that rogues get a larger boost due to DAM than warriors do. This is because Invisible*Fury multiplies DAM, and on C1-C5 this is x54-x108, and since warriors have no Invisible (normally), R1-R6 is only x8-x81. Warriors do get a larger Ingress, but that does not help DAM.

Thus, DAM for rogues counts a lot more, particularly when comparing lower Cunnings to lower Rages. As for what DAM does, well, it basically adds a bit of power to each swing of your weapon, so basically DAM increases...damage. HIT apparently increases accuracy and possible how often you crit (red flash on enemy for double damage or so), but quantifying the bonus is hard.

Rogues use New Luck Amulets at level 99 because they get a MASSIVE boost from them due to their high multipliers on DAM and the fact they do not get Ambrosias - warriors do, and each has 5 DAM/HIT and better AC, so no warrior in their right mind would take NLAs over Ambrosias (in my opinion).

In fact, Ambrosias are viable until ee san, even sam san (though by sam san you really should have ADHs/ACs), for warriors, as they really are not bad. The AC is a little weak at ee san, but the stats are acceptable. Rogues do not have the luxury of amazing non-Vortex hand items, so they need to use Luck Amulets/Claws/Spirit Masks/Daemon Hearts to keep up.

At the sam san level, you need to keep in mind a few things:

1.) Ancient Daemon Hearts (ADHs) have -1 AC better than Ancient Luck Amulets (ALAs), and when on Rage, each AC point is very important. Very. If you saw how much damage I take on R6 in Bandit3 you'd know why each point counts.

2.) ADHs have 6 DAM and 10 HIT, whereas ALAs only have 9 DAM, no HIT. Now, DAM is better than HIT, especially since what HIT does, exactly, is a bit of a mystery (Accuracy, how much? Critical hits? How many?). However, ADHs have a total of 16 swing-related points, whereas ALAs have merely 9.

3.) ADHs add more Vitality than ALAs, and though the extra 5K or so is fairly minor at those stats, it is something. Of course, there is a mana substraction, but warriors do not really need mana, anyway, as even its contribution to Siege is minor.

Still, the best option of all, for rogues and warriors, are Ancient Claws. However, they cost something like 10M a pair, whereas ADHs cost only 4M a pair. For a warrior who is not rather rich, it is worth taking the slightly worse hand item and saving the 6M, as the difference in effectiveness is not visible. tongue.gif
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Vortextk
post Jun 21 2007, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE(Tynan @ Jun 21 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]35464[/snapback]


If you saw how much damage I take on R6 in Bandit3 you'd know why each point counts.



It is a lot. Sometimes I want to stop paralyzing monsters and see how fast they kill him on r6.


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Tynan
post Jun 22 2007, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE(Vortextk @ Jun 21 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]35489[/snapback]

It is a lot. Sometimes I want to stop paralyzing monsters and see how fast they kill him on r6.


Luckily I now have a Seraph pendant! It is just for cases when I hunt with terrible, evil mages! tongue.gif

Oddly enough, since buying one I have not died, and even more oddly, I have never died in Bandit3, ever, though I still sometimes die in Hunter3. Go figure.

However, I am sure my time will come in Bandit3. I have already been healed out a few times, and one day I will not be so lucky. tongue.gif

Oh, and as for how long it would take me to die on R6, assuming 4 things were hitting me...a maximum of 4 rounds of swings, so maybe...6-8 seconds or less? That is just an estimate, of course. smile.gif
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solman
post Jun 24 2007, 11:47 PM
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Heres a quick sum down of hit vs damage rogue vs warrior...

warriors have flank/backstab.. in general multiple attacks. They need a higher HIT to manage all these directions for 1 swing. Thus its smarter to increase HIT then dam..

Rogues normally only have 1 attack. Thats in a forward direction. So it makes more sence to increase this damage as much as possible since hit is rarely concidered due to you normally hit every swing the way it is.

Quick run down of why its diffrent for warrior vs rogue. Easiest explination.


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Rachel
post Jun 25 2007, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE(solman @ Jun 24 2007, 11:47 PM) [snapback]35670[/snapback]
Rogues normally only have 1 attack. Thats in a forward direction.


It's really been that long since you've played Nexus? happy.gif

80% of the time, a rogue hits in 7 or 8 directions. The rest of the time, they hit in 3.


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solman
post Jun 25 2007, 11:11 PM
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Im talking more at a PK thing and not so much hunting. Granted polearms are diffrent in this aspect but eh..


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Vortextk
post Jun 26 2007, 03:00 AM
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Who relies on hit/dam at all for pk? I mean, isn't like almost every pre 99 carnage done anyway? There are 2-3 between carnages/bloodlusts I think, but could be wrong. And even then, with such TINY furies, weapon stats and ingresses, I really doubt hit/dam could ever make a large difference.


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solman
post Jun 26 2007, 06:56 AM
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eh true there. What is there now? only glory and legends? I do remember when I played and SF was around that it ment 2 swinging a player if they were dis sc vs 3 swinging. So DAM ment a huge diffrence vs hit. Yet once you get into the higher levels it really means nothing because its all 1 hit related.


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Hemp
post Jun 26 2007, 07:26 PM
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Currently, I have a Fine Pearl Bracelet and a Tuna wizard eye for my hand items.

I was thinking about buying a New Mystic Herb & Spirit Mask. To me this would seem decently balanced.

I want your opinions on it.


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Vortextk
post Jun 26 2007, 08:51 PM
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Herbs are ok for how much they cost, but you should really stay away from new herbs. If anything get a geo orb, or qi shard, or something. It only has 4 hit and 2 dam and at 99, there are cheaper and/or better alternatives.

New masks are better, flip flopped hit/dam, but really, we're talking about a 99 rogue? It doesn't get better than shee-lees or luck amulets if you go expensive, and qi shards/charus are good if you're going cheap. The only big thing they add that most hand items won't, are actual stats. Good to help you reach the next cunning, but a day or two of hunting can bump you up as well.


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Hemp
post Jun 26 2007, 10:12 PM
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Interesting.

What about a pair of Spirit masks VS. pair of NLA's?

Do you think the HIT 4 DAM 8 would not rock as much as 12 DAM? I'm thinking I may hit more in terms of a large attack.


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Vortextk
post Jun 26 2007, 11:11 PM
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I don't like more hit because on c1(though I'm sure you're probably 3+?) you only hit 3 targets. In 99 caves and low stat caves, you already kill so fast sets are practically destroyed as soon as the mage can make them IF they can make them at all. You spend a lot of your time going to 2-3 guys, killing your main target, moving a bit, and hitting one of your corners as your "front" now. Especially in mythic caves as you walk around more, you don't sit in 1 spot and get diamonds around you. I would always choose damage as my preference but I do not have hard numbers to back me up.

Though if you can't decide between those two, get 2 shee-lees and just never die =P whats that like...16 dam and 8 hit? heh.


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Hemp
post Jun 27 2007, 12:27 AM
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I would love a pair of shee-lees for carnages.
Know if they are expensive to bank?

I'll save up for a pair of NSM's for now and test them out. So far adding the tuna wizard eye in place of the metal orb I had has proved more effective in terms of killing, so hit seems to be a good boost. I'll try out NLA's without getting stats to compare and see how effective 4 DAM really is.

These HIT/DAM things has always stumped me anyway.


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solman
post Jun 27 2007, 09:15 AM
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Heres an old PK/hunters trick for figuring out whats better. get a semi strong buddy of yours and you take some weak/semi buff items in terms of DAM vs HIT. Go into an arena and start swinging at him. You will notice on average how much damage you do and how fast you do it. You want to get more in depth you bring a few people and attack in all directions. Determine how many times they all get hit vs how much damage they do. You don't have to have the most expensive items to see your ratio in what it should be. I believe if im not mistaken for a rogue should be 3.5 DAM vs 2 HIT. Somewhere in that range.


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Rokugo
post Jun 27 2007, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE(solman @ Jun 24 2007, 11:47 PM) [snapback]35670[/snapback]


warriors have flank/backstab.. in general multiple attacks. They need a higher HIT to manage all these directions for 1 swing. Thus its smarter to increase HIT then dam..



QUOTE(solman @ Jun 25 2007, 11:11 PM) [snapback]35723[/snapback]

Im talking more at a PK thing and not so much hunting. Granted polearms are diffrent in this aspect but eh..


Okay, please explain in what kind of PK situation warriors actually use flank and backstab effectively enough that increasing HIT over DAM is desirable.


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Euphoria
post Jun 27 2007, 01:00 PM
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the only good thing hit does is let you wake up a slept poet easier in a pk situation other than that I dont know


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solman
post Jun 28 2007, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE(Rokugo @ Jun 27 2007, 10:20 AM) [snapback]35790[/snapback]

Okay, please explain in what kind of PK situation warriors actually use flank and backstab effectively enough that increasing HIT over DAM is desirable.


how many warriors do you know who aether or even duo with anybody thats not a non 99er without ww?


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Vortextk
post Jun 29 2007, 01:17 AM
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QUOTE(solman @ Jun 28 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]35862[/snapback]

how many warriors do you know who aether or even duo with anybody thats not a non 99er without ww?


Seriously, I have no clue what that is supposed to mean.


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