IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Proposal For New Berserk & Whirlwind
Hugen
post Jan 31 2007, 05:06 PM
Post #1


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 116
Joined: 22-December 06
Member No.: 1,467



There is some discussion going on on these boards on how Warrior special attacks might be better implemented, or fixed, if you prefer.

This proposal will address the basic cycle of Whirlwind, Berserk, Berserk and the proposed solution will be one that incorporates Mana into the formulae.

The proposed New Whirlwind will:

Do 1.4x Vita + 0.96x Mana and Use 80% of Vita and 600 Mana.

in conjunction with this the proposed New Berserk will:

Do 0.75x Vita + 0.64x Mana and used 66.67% of Vita and 25% of Mana (must have 180 mana to cast).

That's it. What do you think?


Here's what I think.

I think it would give an "optimum mana value" for Warriors, which is handy for planning and balancing.

Example below:

Rogue Cycle:
LS = 0.5 V + 2.5 M
DA = 1.0 V + 1.0 M
DA = 1.0 V + 0.0 M
Total = 2.5 V + 3.5 M
So, clearly 1 point of Mana is worth more than 1 point of Vita.
However, Mana also costs more, so when should we buy each?

When Mana costs less than 3.5/2.5 (140%) as much as Vita, we should buy it.
With experience costs, this means about a 3:1 V:M ratio.

So, for example, if we have 500k Vita we will be paying 62 million for 100 more Vita.
62 x 1.4 = 86.8
So, when 100 Mana costs less than 86.8 million (42 mil for 50), it is a good deal.
That would be 159.95k Mana.

Hypothetical Warrior Cycle:
WW = 1.400 V + 0.960 M
Zrk = 0.750 V + 0.640 M
Zrk = 0.750 V + 0.480 M
Total = 2.900 V + 2.080 M
So, clearly 1 point of Vita is worth more than 1 point of Mana.
But, when should we buy each?

When Mana costs less than 2.08/2.9 (71.72%) as much as Vita, we should buy it.
With experience costs, this means about a 6:1 V:M ratio.

So, for example, if we have 640k Vita we will be paying 76 million for 100 more Vita.
76 x 0.7172 = 54.5
So, when 100 Mana costs less than 54.5 million per 100 it is a good deal.


How do the support-to-damage requirements work out?

With 740 bil spent experience we can have:

a 480k / 480k Poet,
a 883k / 300k Rogue, or
a 1,040k / 150k Warrior.

A Rogue cycle in the current system would look something like this:
A 883k/300k Rogue and a 480k/480k Poet
CODE

   Poet Invokes (Poet at 480k mana)
   Rogue Lethal Strikes for 1191.5k damage
12 Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Rogue (Poet at 432k mana)
5  Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Self (Poet at 412k mana)
   Rogue Desperate Attacks for 1182k damage
12 Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Rogue (Poet at 364k mana)
   Rogue Desperate Attacks for 883k damage
12 Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Rogue (Poet at 316k mana)
1  Poet Inspires Rogue 316k mana
42 Heals / Inspires
   Damage Done: 3256.5k
   Dmg / RHI Action: 77,536


and a Warrior cycle in the proposed system would look something like this:

A 1040k/150k Warrior and a 480k/480k Poet
CODE

   Warrior Whirlwinds for 1537k damage
3  Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Warrior (Poet at 97.3k mana)
1  Poet Inspires Warrior 97.3k mana
   Poet Invokes (Poet at 480k mana)
1  Poet Restores Warrior for 832k (Poet at 320k mana)
1  Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Warrior (Poet at 316k mana)
5  Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Self (Poet at 296k mana)
   Warrior Berserks for 876k damage
18 Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Warrior (Poet at 224k mana)
   Warrior Berserks for 834k damage
1  Poet Restores Warrior for 336k (Poet at 149.3k mana)
10 Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Warrior (Poet at 109.3k mana)
40 Restores / Heals / Inspires
   Damage Done: 3247k
   Dmg / RHI Action: 81,175



Fairly balanced.

Plus, it opens up possibilities for Warriors in Carnages.

While a 3:1 ratio might be optimal for Rogues eventually, they can "pack" into the lower carnages with 2:1 ratios and see a nice return.

This would also allow Warriors to do the same.

Let's look at a comparison of "Maxed" Characters for the 50:25 Carnage:

Rogue:
LS = 87.5
DA = 75
DA = 50
LS+DA = 137.5

Warrior (NOW):
WW = 78.75
Zrk = 37.5
Zrk = 37.5
WW+Zrk = 82.5

Warrior (Proposed):
WW = 94
Zrk = 53.5
Zrk = 49.5
WW+Zrk = 117.5

Nice. The Warrior's Whirlwind (leaving him at 20% health) actually does MORE damage than the Rogue's LS.

The Warrior can even "double" for a significant damage boost (though it won't match the Rogue's double).


Comments?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Jan 31 2007, 11:47 PM
Post #2


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



First of all, I do love the idea behind this change. I am sure some warriors will despise the idea of using some mana, but it actually ends up helping them in various ways such as:

1.) Slightly better combination attacks
2.) More power for the same experience spent (due to how stat costs work)
3.) A better experience in PK at maxed 2:1 stats

So, it has my support. We would just need to open everyone else's eyes.

But, to dispel the illusion that I vapidly agreed to this, I do have one major concern!

I do not like at all how an empty Desperate Attack will beat both the full Berserk and the '75% Mana Berserk', albeit not by much. This should change, in my opinion.

Granted, you have kept the numbers very balanced, and I can see why you chose to do it this way (warriors still have the most powerful attack, rogues have more balanced attacks) but I will never truly be happy with a solution that allows a rogue to run around with no Mana and do more damage than a full Berserk.

So, before I give it my seal of approval (whatever worth that has tongue.gif), I would like to know if we can achieve balance and still have a full Berserk beat an empty Desperate Attack, if only by 5%-10%. Some may call me picky or point to this as a 'My "toe" is bigger than yours' thing, but I simply do not want rogues converting Vitality into damage that well relative to warriors.

What do you think, Hugen? Can numbers be reworked to achieve this? Do you see a point to doing it? If you do, I would welcome revised numbers. smile.gif I suppose it may mean a slightly weaker Whirlwind, or Berserk taking less Mana, or basing its damage less on Mana. You are the creator, though, so I leave it to you.

Anyway, nice job, I like this line of thinking. It gives some weight to Mana, but not too much. And, since every warrior now needs at least a good 150K Mana (not sure about the Do, though), it would be nice to have some damage based off of it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hugen
post Feb 1 2007, 09:50 AM
Post #3


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 116
Joined: 22-December 06
Member No.: 1,467



QUOTE(Tynan @ Jan 31 2007, 11:47 PM) [snapback]24968[/snapback]
So, before I give it my seal of approval (whatever worth that has tongue.gif), I would like to know if we can achieve balance and still have a full Berserk beat an empty Desperate Attack, if only by 5%-10%. Some may call me picky or point to this as a 'My "toe" is bigger than yours' thing, but I simply do not want rogues converting Vitality into damage that well relative to warriors.


I am very amenable to tweaking the numbers to a better solution. I will look at it, and if you like, PM me your e-mail address and I will e-mail you the spreadsheet where I play with the numbers.

I could even be convinced that a lower optimum vita:mana ratio might be called for for Warriors. I think having an attack cycle that optimized 4:1 might be perfect.

My reasoning:

If we assume Poets and Mages purchase at roughly a 1:1 ratio, then we have a benchmark. A Warrior purchasing at a 4:1 ratio will then be hitting Sans and Caves at exactly the same time as their accompanying Poet.

However, 6:1 isn't bad, and is potentially a balancing point. A little faster rise in exchange for all the Warrior weaknesses and the fact that they are still the most likely to die, and therefore WON'T have the same experience level of a Poet who accompanied them on all of their hunts.

I will go back and look at the numbers now.

Edit: OK, I've looked.

I've also realized how adding in a Mana component to Warrior attacks is going to make the synchronization between Poet and Warrior even more important than currently.

It's easy with Rogues. Their life is never in any great danger. It is no big deal if they LS or not immediately after the Inspire. A Poet can Inspire/Invoke/Heal themselves/Retarget the Rogue and it really makes no big difference whether they have started the healing immediately after the LS or let the Rogue "hang out" while they Invoke, Heal themselves, and then Retarget the Rogue.

However, with Warriors as currently implemented, it can be the difference between life and death. I lost a Warrior last week who Whirlwinded just after I had Invoked and retargeted myself. A mob stepped in and nailed the Warrior in the back with the "Sa-" still hanging. For that reason, I started holding my Invokes until after they Whirlwinded and I healed them. Then I knew they were aether blocked and it was safe for me to untarget them. For that reason I reordered the healing sequence in my original example. It costs some damage off the Whirlwind though.


Hopefully with 20% Vita Whirlwinds and no Rage AC hits, a slightly more optimized damage approach can be used.

Revised proposal:

The version 2.1 proposed New Whirlwind will:

Do 1.4x Vita + 0.75x Mana and Use 80% of Vita and 600 Mana.

in conjunction with this the version 2.1 proposed New Berserk will:

Do 0.75x Vita + 0.75x Mana and used 66.67% of Vita and 33.33% of Mana (must have 180 mana to cast).

(The Whirlwind Vita component was reduced exactly as Eldridge did. (1.4 = 1.75 * 0.8)

The new cycle might look like:
A 1040k/150k Warrior and a 480k/480k Poet
CODE

   Poet Invokes (Poet at 480k mana)
5  Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Self (Poet at 460k mana)
   Warrior Whirlwinds for 1568.5k damage
1  Poet Restores Warrior for 690k (Poet at 306.7k mana)
4  Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Warrior (Poet at 290.7k mana)
   Warrior Berserks for 892.5k damage
18 Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Warrior (Poet at 218.7k mana)
   Warrior Berserks for 829.8k damage
1  Poet Restores Warrior for 328k (Poet at 145.8k mana)
10 Poet Heals (40k for 4k) Warrior (Poet at 105.8k mana)
1  Poet Inspires Warrior 105.8k mana
40 Restores / Heals / Inspires
   Damage Done: 3290.8k
   Dmg / RHI Action: 82,270


The balance with Rogues is maintained, and the full Zerk just outperforms the empty DA.

The carnage (50:25) numbers are also nice:

Warrior (Proposed 2.1):
WW = 88.75
Zrk = 56.25
Zrk = 50
WW+Zrk = 115
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 1 2007, 02:15 PM
Post #4


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



All right, Hugen, I appreciate the changes you made, and I feel these are more in line with what the damage of these attacks should be relative to each other.

The nice thing is, these new formulas do not upset the previous balance in any significant way. What was true before is still true now, just to greater or lesser extremes.

I mentioned it in list form in another thread, so I will be brief here, but rogues still have more balanced attacks, still double better, still are safer, etc. That has not been upset.

Warriors now just do not face eventual certain death Whirlwinding (especially,as you said, if that bogus Rage AC penalty were lifted) and do not have a gimpy Berserk holding them back. Those were the most important issues with those attacks, and indeed two of the most important issues for warriors, period. Though I certainly want more changes, I would go so far as to say that if only two could be picked, these would be the ones I'd suggest.

Does anyone have any input before I integrate this into my list of changes (which I have not yet finished, but should today, at which point I'll request tons more criticism)?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dannicus
post Feb 1 2007, 09:01 PM
Post #5


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 383
Joined: 4-July 06
Member No.: 130



kru needs to do this biggrin.gif I love what I am seeing!


--------------------
QUOTE
wish you liked boobies *sighs*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lusk
post Feb 4 2007, 02:51 PM
Post #6


Il san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 268
Joined: 16-August 06
Member No.: 646



I'm sorry I dont want my Berserk to take 100k mana
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 4 2007, 07:43 PM
Post #7


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



QUOTE(Lusk @ Feb 4 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]25260[/snapback]

I'm sorry I dont want my Berserk to take 100k mana


What if it meant your Berserk did more damage and could be doubled with a Whirlwind better (though I seldom if ever see you in PK events, so perhaps doubling does not matter to you)?

What if it meant you could gain power through a statistic that currently does little but is still forced upon you, thereby allowing you to grow in power more easily?

However, I understand the concern. When one looks at it, however, it would not make being a warrior much different, nor poeting a warrior much harder. If a warrior was 6:1, a poet could still use Restore and have enough Mana left to full Inspire at the end.

At your stats, you would only need about a 166K Inspire after each Whirlwind-Berserk-Berserk cycle. I am quite sure Emitt has that much to spare on his Invoke cycle.

Regardless, maybe people are not willing to see such a change yet? I suppose there will always be a stigma surrounding Inspires, even though this would be nothing at all like a rogue.

This led me to think of an alternative, which does not drain Mana, but still bases some damage on Mana.

Spell: Berserk
Mana Cost: 200
Damage: 0.75*Vitality + Mana
Vitality Drain: 70%

Spell: Whirlwind
Mana Cost: 600
Damage: 1.5*Vitality
Vitality Drain: 85%

A cycle is 2 Berserks and 1 Whirlwind, so the total damage is 3*Vitality + 2*Mana

The total healing needed would be 2.25*Vitality, as opposed to 2.23*Vitality in the current system, so that would go up the slightest bit (I decreased Whirlwind's drain while upping Berserk's to maintain healing balance while I tweaked the damage). This means nothing changes for poets, really.

To get an optimum ratio, we need to figure out when to buy Mana. One should buy Mana whenever it would increase your damage more than buying Vitality would. Right now Mana is 2/3 as effective as Vitality at causing damage, but one also only gets 50 per purchase. This means we should only buy Mana when Mana costs 1/3 of what Vitality costs.

Now, this means the ratio does fluctuate as one grows, but at sa san Vitality one would want a ratio of 7.5:1. This means one would only want about 170,000 Mana at 1,280,000 Vitality. This means that most warriors, since they need at least 150,000 Mana for R6 anyway, would never need to buy more Mana. Only very buff warriors would. In my experience, most warriors, by the time they are sa san stats, are running around 5:1 as it is. So, I repeat: this change would not affect people to any great extent, as one would still want to go all Vitality after getting R6 until at least around 1M Vitality, anyway.

Currently, a warrior at 1,280,000/170,000 would do:

Berserk: 960,000 damage
Whirlwind: 2,016,000 damage
Cycle: 3,936,000 damage

That same warrior in my system would do:

Berserk: 1,130,000 damage
Whirlwind: 1,920,000 damage
Cycle: 4,180,000

This is a moderate increase, but it has some good repercussions I'll soon discuss.

Let us compare this to a 3:1 rogue of the same total experience (1063.2B). Such a rogue would be 1,090,000/360,000 (1060.4B).

This rogue does:

Desperate Attack 1: 1,450,000 damage
Desperate Attack 2: 1,090,000 damage
Lethal Strike: 1,445,000 damage
Cycle: 3,985,000 damage

The warrior does a bit less than 5% more total damage. This is very close. The balance is that warriors still risk more (more dangerous attacks) and lack all the utility rogues have (Invisible, Ambush, etc.) and will take longer to one hit through the whole cycle.

Now, what do I feel are the strengths of this new system, now that I have laid out some numbers?

First of all, Berserk is now a lot more useful. It compares reasonably well to Desperate Attack, whereas currently it is abysmal (currently, an empty DA beats a Berserk). Secondly, yes, I did take a bit of power off of Whirlwind, but not much. This was necessary to balance Berserk properly. As you will note, Whirlwind is a bit safer, though still draining, which was another necessity to keep maintenance balanced.

You will also note that Berserk is a bit more draining. This was to counter Whirlwind being less draining - if it was kept the same then warriors would be too easy to poet.

Another strength of my system applies to warriors in carnages. While they still cannot double or triple with much success (rogues have an amazing set of doubles, and even their triple is decent), they can now max a carnage and not be gimped.

Observe at 2:1 stats:

Warrior:

Berserk: 2.5
Whirlwind: 3
Cycle: 8

Rogue:

Full Desperate Attack: 3
Empty Desperate Attack: 2
Lethal Strike: 3.5
Cycle: 8.5

Yes, I realize cycling is not really something done in Carnages, for the most part, but I included that anyway.

As you can see, finally warriors are not gimped! Mana meaning something is huge!

That brings me to my final point. Right now, as warriors chase that elusive R6, this Mana they accumulate means little, save to just cast that next step. Rogues,on the other hand, have a massive Lethal Strike while they go for C5.

My changes balance that.

So, people (especially Hugen), what do you think about that? I think I have come up with a quite fair and elegant way to balance the special attacks of warriors while still requiring no Mana drain (which keeps poeting a warrior and the theme of warriors the same), but I'll leave you all to judge.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hugen
post Feb 4 2007, 08:15 PM
Post #8


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 116
Joined: 22-December 06
Member No.: 1,467



QUOTE(Tynan @ Feb 4 2007, 07:43 PM) [snapback]25280[/snapback]

This led me to think of an alternative, which does not drain Mana, but still bases some damage on Mana.

Spell: Berserk
Mana Cost: 200
Damage: 0.75*Vitality + Mana
Vitality Drain: 70%

Spell: Whirlwind
Mana Cost: 600
Damage: 1.5*Vitality
Vitality Drain: 85%

A cycle is 2 Berserks and 1 Whirlwind, so the total damage is 3*Vitality + 2*Mana


I have not had a chance to analyze it in detail, but it does worry me. Doing 1x Mana in damage and not having a drain based on the Mana is opening a door for abuse. Look at Mana Rogues. I know people should be able to play their characters however they want, but game design should point them in a certain direction. Free Mana based attacks doesn't feel right for Warriors to me. (I know the Sam san is 50% Mana with no percentage cost, but given its aethers it is a fairly small part of a Warriors expected damage output.)

As unfathomable as it is to me, some Warriors elected to take the Kwi-sin Whirlwind over the Oheang/Ming Ken one. There will be no solution that is embraced by 100% of the community.

I'll try and get a chance to look at it more closely tomorrow.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 4 2007, 08:23 PM
Post #9


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



QUOTE
Doing 1x Mana in damage and not having a drain based on the Mana is opening a door for abuse.


What abuse, though? It would not make being a 'Mana Warrior' at all viable due to Whirlwind not being based on Mana at all, and the fact that Mana costs so much it would never be more efficient than just going all Vitality. Even if you take Whirlwind out of the picture, it is still more efficient for damage to go purely Vitality for Berserk, due to stat costs.

Also, due to the Vitality drain, it is not as though one could just Berserk away and not require healing. In this way it is the same as Lethal Strike, except Lethal Strike is based more off Mana and drains less Vitality. Buff rogues can currently solo piddly places and almost LS on aethers, since all they need is one tick between LSs to keep them alive.

Finally, this still points people in a very firm direction. As I have shown, the ideal ratio still incorporates minimal Mana, it just makes use of what Mana there is.

Anyway, I looked for any way such a thing could be abused, but came up with nothing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SilentS
post Feb 4 2007, 10:39 PM
Post #10


Sa san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 2,151
Joined: 3-July 06
From: Edmonton
Member No.: 26



Keep in mind, the AVERAGE mana of a Samsan is 250-300k mana. EEsans average around 200k. NO warrior stops gaining mana at 150k. Majority of them will not stop till at least 200k.

As for the mana based in attacks, there are warriors out there with 300k+ mana. Take eDakotax for example. Rumor has it he has at LEAST 800k mana. Lusk has around 400k judging from his post.

So yes, not having any decent mana drain for attacks like that could cause serious abuse and quite powerfull attacks. Even with only 10 vita after a Kwi WW.

As good as your ideas are, those ones are just a bit too unrealistic in their current forms without any mana drain penalties if you want to include mana into any attack formulas.


--------------------
IPB Image
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 5 2007, 12:18 AM
Post #11


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



I would like someone to show me with numbers why this is overpowered. wink.gif

I honestly cannot see what the problem is, and I have looked really hard. Like I said, if a warrior is 1M/500K, for example, he is only gimping himself.

There would be nothing to gain trying to 'abuse' the no mana drain portion part of the attack. It would be as silly as a rogue going 750K/750K to abuse Lethal Strike since it is 2.5*Mana and only costs 1000.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hugen
post Feb 5 2007, 10:03 AM
Post #12


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 116
Joined: 22-December 06
Member No.: 1,467



QUOTE(Tynan @ Feb 5 2007, 12:18 AM) [snapback]25300[/snapback]

I would like someone to show me with numbers why this is overpowered. wink.gif

I honestly cannot see what the problem is, and I have looked really hard. Like I said, if a warrior is 1M/500K, for example, he is only gimping himself.

There would be nothing to gain trying to 'abuse' the no mana drain portion part of the attack. It would be as silly as a rogue going 750K/750K to abuse Lethal Strike since it is 2.5*Mana and only costs 1000.


There is a difference though between the Rogue and the Warrior. I guess there are really two otimization lines that need to be considered. You have considered the first, what are the optimum stats for a given experience. The problem with that is it is only a consideration from the Warrior's perspective.

The other optimization line is that of the Poet supporting them. What Warrior is going to get me the most experience for the least amount of work.

If Mana adds to a Warrior's damage and doesn't even need to be Inspired back after a cycle, then why the heck wouldn't I want a Warrior with gobs of Mana?

With your system, as a self-interest motivated Poet, I'm not going to hunt with a Warrior that isn't built 4:3 Vita:Mana. That way he can:

WW for 1.5 x V = 4 x 1.5 = 6
and then
Zerk for 0.75 V + 0.75 M = 4 x 0.75 + 1 x M = 3 + 3 = 6
two times in a row.

All that for only ( 0.85 + 0.7 + 0.7 ) x 6 = 2.25 x 4 = 9 in healing

That is an 18/9 = 2 times healing to damage ratio with virtually NO INSPIRE.

Healing is cheap.

WoL heals 12.8 damage per 1 mana, at Il and Ee it is 10 damage to 1 mana, and at Sam it jumps to 16.67 damage per 1 mana.

Restore is a pig at only 4.5 damage to 1 mana, but Inspire is really "inefficient". You can only Inspire 1 for 1.

As a Poet, I could not care less that the Warrior has way more spent experience than me, I want the Warrior who can earn me the experience the fastest and the easiest.


I still haven't really had a chance to look at your formulae, but the above illustration certainly gives me some pause.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hugen
post Feb 5 2007, 12:06 PM
Post #13


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 116
Joined: 22-December 06
Member No.: 1,467



Alright, I did look at your formula, and from the Warrior's optimization point of view it is fine.

It is very well balanced in requirements at a 6:1.

I do think the above observation does have a chance to "break" it though.

To be fair, I have not tried to "break" either the current Rogue or my proposed change from the "greedy Poet" perspective.

If I can't, then I think that is a flaw in your formulae.
If I can, then I'm not sure what that means.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 5 2007, 02:14 PM
Post #14


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



I made a new spreadsheet for special attacks that allows me to quickly tweak formulae and spit out results, since I separated all the multipliers into individual cells.

Anyway, I have been using this sheet and have tried to break things in my system for fun.

A 1M/150K warrior cycle is:

Whirlwind: 1,500,000
Berserk 1: 899,400
Berserk 2: 899,200
Total: 3,298,600

Total Healing Needed: 2,250,000
Total Mana Needed: 1,000
Damage/Vita: 1.466
Damage/Mana: 32,986

A 462K/462K warrior cycle is:

Whirlwind: 693,000
Berserk 1: 807,900
Berserk 2: 807,700
Total: 2,308,600

Total Healing Needed: 1,039,500
Total Mana Needed: 1,000
Damage/Vita: 2.221
Damage/Mana: 23,086

For rogues, we'll try three configurations, in their current system.

At 860K/285K:

Lethal Strike: 1,142,500
DA 1: 1,144,000
DA 2: 860,000
Total: 3,146,500

Total Healing Needed: 1,290,000
Total Mana Needed: 285,000
Damage/Vita: 2.439
Damage/Mana: 11.040

At 462K/462K:

Lethal Strike: 1,386,000
DA 1: 923,000
DA 2: 462,000
Total: 2,771,000

Total Healing Needed: 693,000
Total Mana Needed: 462,000
Damage/Vita: 4.000
Damage/Mana: 5.000

At 1020K/120K:

Lethal Strike: 810,000
DA 1: 1,139,000
DA 2: 1,020,000
Total: 2,969,000

Total Healing Needed: 1,530,000
Total Mana Needed: 120,000
Damage/Vita: 1.941
Damage/Mana: 24.742

So, is my system so very flawed in light of these numbers? Let's examine them!

First, you will note I chose a few extremes, sort of. I first chose what is a fairly ideal ratio for both paths, then I chose a very Mana-heavy ratio for both, too, by equating Mana and Vitality. Finally, I made a Vita rogue, to contrast it to the Mana-heavy warrior. Note that the total cost for all these stats is the roughly the same, hovering around 690B.

You will right away notice that the best ratio for a warrior is also, obviously, the most difficult to maintain as he will drain a lot of Vitality. The heavier in Mana he goes, the easier it is to maintain, but the less damage he does. In fact, he loses a full 30% of his damage in my example. Of course, his efficiency increases, and he does become easier to poet by a large margin. Also, please note that the power of each of his attacks decrease if he goes equal in Mana and Vitality - even his Berserk is weaker, and his Whirlwind sucks.

As for the rogue, it is almost more interesting, as the warrior results were obvious from the beginning. The best results are from the 1020K/120K example. Here we see that a rogue does not lose much damage at all by massively changing his ratio from around 3:1 to 8.5:1. In fact, his overall efficiency massively increases, and he becomes easier to poet, too. This indicates that as soon as a rogue can one-hit where he wants to with Lethal Strike, he could never again buy Mana, which has many benefits (durability, poeting ease, etc.)

But the question remains is the warrior unbalanced? His efficiency does become very good, I agree, and he does become quite easy to poet, though he loses a significant portion of damage. But, on the other hand, if the rogue decides to be 'odd' he loses even less damage and becomes more durable - a Mana heavy warrior is will be a trivial force in PK, as an example.

In light of this, I would say that both the rogue formulae and my proposed warrior formulae break, albeit differently, but in an acceptable way.

Why is it acceptable? Well, first of all, if a warrior truly wants to gimp himself to be easier to poet, I do not think we should worry about that. I firmly believe no one would want to do this to oneself - it is honestly not worth it, as you will not only do far less damage but will also die to people 1/3 your stats in experience, as well as face death in hunting.

Secondly, any advantage one might think this warrior has is countered by the benefit rogues have by being able to pack on Vitality with little cost to damage. If one claims what I have put forth is flawed, I feel one must also admit Desperate Attack is flawed, too, and should be changed.

However, I doubt it will ever be changed, and you want to know why? Because no rogues abuse this to make changing it necessary, just like no warrior would be silly enough to try to abuse Mana.

So, I still claim such changes would be fair because to break these formulae one would need to try to break them by doing things that make no sense in terms of damage or self-preservation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hugen
post Feb 5 2007, 05:21 PM
Post #15


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 116
Joined: 22-December 06
Member No.: 1,467



QUOTE(Tynan @ Feb 5 2007, 02:14 PM) [snapback]25341[/snapback]

So, is my system so very flawed in light of these numbers?


Yes, I think it is.

I've ran some numbers, but I don't have the time to clean up the spreadsheet for posting. I'll try and get an opportunity to later.

There is a problem with your "Vita Rogue" build. The problem is that there are a LOT of them out there.

Why am I saying something that is so clearly wrong?

It's all a matter of perspective.

All it takes to change a 900k/300k 3:1 Ratio Rogue into a 900k/90k 10:1 Ratio Rogue is a Poet who is too weak to Inspire them properly.

The same Rogue IS a 3:1 or a 10:1 depending on who they can find to Poet.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 5 2007, 05:49 PM
Post #16


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



QUOTE
All it takes to change a 900k/300k 3:1 Ratio Rogue into a 900k/90k 10:1 Ratio Rogue is a Poet who is too weak to Inspire them properly.


This is why one needs to hunt with people one's own statistics. If one does not, one must reduce one's damage output. The game is quite well-designed in that respect.

The same is true for warriors even now. If I hunt with even a weak ee san poet I cannot cycle well at all. I require 630K of healing every Whirlwind. Using just the ee san heal it would take more than 11 seconds to heal this. My Berserks each take 8 seconds of healing, needing 466K.

So, I need a poet who can turn 27 seconds of pure healing, which discounts lag, healing the poet himself/herself, healing the mage if there is no moet, and scourging if there is no moet, into 22 seconds. I pretty much need a poet who can one-Restore me on Whirlwind or come very close if I am supposed to use every attack on aethers at full strength. This means I need a poet with sam san mana. I cannot just grab any old poet and hunt at maximum efficiency like some people think warriors can, as people seldom consider time, just Vitality vs Mana.

What rogues need in Inspires, warriors need in fast healing via a large Restore. This balances out as rogues require very little healing in comparison. At my stats, a rogue cycling only needs 18s of pure healing using the ee san heal, and the Inspire only takes one cast.

If anything, it is easier to poet a rogue, it just requires a fraction more Mana.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Hugen
post Feb 5 2007, 07:06 PM
Post #17


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 116
Joined: 22-December 06
Member No.: 1,467



I did a Rogue attack worksheet.

http://media3.filewind.com/g.php?filepath=4960

It is posted here.


It shows that over a relatively small stat range (+60k or so Vita to a 200k or so Rogue) that additional Vita on their Rogue is not a free ride for the Poet. It means more work.

It also shows that the only way your extreme example is going to work is if the Poet treats the Rogue like a Warrior and uses Restore on them. Even at Sam san, with the more efficient heals a Poet, with equal spent experience to a Rogue, can not use Restore on them and still Inspire them fully.

And heals are work.

So, a big Rogue (relative to the Poet) makes a pretty good warrior when healed as one. I don't see where that "breaks" the Rogue.

Just because a 900k:300k Rogue healed like a 900k:90k Warrior can do more damage than a smaller statted Rogue, doesn't break the formulae.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 5 2007, 07:39 PM
Post #18


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



Well, I had a look, and I am shocked at the damage a 2000K/200K rogue can do given a poet who is only 480K/480K, considering a 1763K/588K rogue paired with a 950K/950K poet only does 19.5% better.

The buffer poet has more than thrice (3.47 times, to be exact) the experience spent than the weaker one, and can only help his rogue 19.5% more. Quite interesting.

Granted, the rogue paired with the weaker poet is more optimized for those lesser stats.

If you get a chance, I'd love to see a spreadsheet such as this made for warriors, in a similar fashion.

By the way, as interesting as it is to examine the work done by the poet, I am not sure this factor should be given a weight equal to that of other factors, such as damage. To be sure, it should be considered, but one must also realize that while some poets are lazy (just like some from any path), many are not, and are willing to work if it is worth it. In fact, some poets are the opposite of lazy - to have fun, they need to be worked.

All I am saying is that I think we need to consider total damage, damage balance, and safety, and then poet effort. So long as the efforts are not massively different, I think a balance of the first three is sufficient.

One must also not forget that it is disputable whether rogues and warriors should even be perfectly even in special attacks. Where do we balance the numerous rogue advantages (I am not going to keep listing them, we all know what they are)? Let's suppose a warrior is 10% easier to poet - is this fair or not? At what point is it fair?

As someone who enjoys PK (though I am not very good, I admit) I can tell you now I'd rather require Inspires and be able to lay Sleep Traps, go Invisible and Ambush, than simply just not require Inspires.

QUOTE
So, a big Rogue (relative to the Poet) makes a pretty good warrior when healed as one. I don't see where that "breaks" the Rogue.


Well, the fact that the rogue makes a good warrior is quite a break, I think. You do not see warriors making good rogues. As you yourself said, statistics should be urged in a certain direction - I am not sure rogues really get much of a push. Warriors must go all Vitality, basically; rogues can leave Mana behind altogether, if they wish.

You know what the saddest thing is right now? Let's say a warrior and rogue could both go 100% Vitality, just for fun. So, they each have 1 Vitality (it does not matter what one chooses, it could be 1,000,000).

Warrior Damage:

Berserk: 0.75
Whirlwind: 1.575
Cycle: 3.075
Healing: 2.23
Damage/Healing: 1.38

Rogue Damage:

Desperate Attack: 1
Lethal Strike: 0.5
Cycle: 2.5
Healing: 1.5
Damage/Healing: 1.67

This makes me cry. Right now warriors only derive damage from Vitality and they only do it 23% better, and require 48.9% more healing, making them 82.63% as efficient. A rogue is a better warrior than a warrior.

If a rogue ever starts to one-hit with 1000-Mana Lethal Strike, I think I might be sick. tongue.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tynan
post Feb 6 2007, 06:04 PM
Post #19


Ee san
Group Icon

Group: Nobles
Posts: 506
Joined: 3-July 06
From: British Columbia, Canada
Member No.: 12



I just want to put forth one last set of formulae, which is the only pure Vitality solution I can see happening.

Spell: Berserk
Mana: 200
Damage: 0.9*Vitality
Drain: 70% Vitality

Spell: Whirlwind
Mana: 600
Damage: 1.5*Vitality
Drain: 80% Vitality

This is the least-effective yet simplest solution (based on my first solution in my other thread, but balanced better). It still bases absolutely no damage on Mana, so nothing has been fundamentally altered. All it does is boost Berserk's damage and boost its drain, and slightly reduces Whirlwind's damage but decreases its drain.

The warrior now requires 2.2*Vitality in healing, as opposed to 2.23*Vitality. This is a minor alteration and would affect poeting a warrior to only the slightest degree.

He now does, however, 3.3*Vitality in damage each cycle, as opposed to 3.075*Vitality in damage each cycle. This is much more balanced with a rogue at sufficient stats.

Now, what are the problems with this? Well, there are a few, the severity of which depends on your perspective.

1.) Warriors maxing Carnages at 2:1. Warriors would still be pretty weak here, something Mana addresses much better, and Whirlwind's edge has been slightly dulled. Still, overall, they would fare better than they do today. They would do 1.8, 1.8, 3, in a cycle, whereas now they do 1.5, 1.5, 3.15 in a cycle. A rogue does 3.5, 3, 2, just as a benchmark.

2.) Doubling and tripling attacks. Warriors, again, would still be weak here, though they would see a slight improvement. Currently, at 1 Vitality (just as an example) a warrior does 1.65 on a Whirlwind-Berserk double, and now they would do 1.68. Minor, yes, but it is something. They are also left at 6% Vitality instead of the current 3.33%. Rogues are left at 25% on their typical double, as a benchmark, and do a lot more damage.

3.) Warriors are still brought to low Vitality after their attacks, a negative in both PK and hunting.

4.) Until the warrior can stop buying Mana at 150K and just buy Vitality forever after (though most warriors do end up with over 200K Mana, as discussed), their attacks would still be excessively weak compared to rogues. Right now it is not uncommon to see rogues can warriors of almost the exact same stats. For instance, 200/150. The warrior would still do just 660K damage on a cycle off of that, while the rogue would do 1025K damage. Yes, the difference would be that bad, and currently it is worse.

Now, the first problem only truly impacts Carnage characters, who already are not usually warriors since warriors make poor choices (though a Barbarian with Rend has its charms, since a maxed Rend can kill many people through ASV, but I digress). The second point, doubling, is one I am willing to let slide and be the domain of rogues, since warriors have a few benefits in Carnages I think match this well enough (no need for Inspires, which are often hard to come by in PK, is a large one).

Point 3 is something warriors will just have to accept unless they wish to be turned into rogues, as that is the only way to balance their attacks without making them severely Mana-based. These changes still make it better.

Finally, Point 4 is something that does go away eventually, so it is not the worst problem. By the time a warrior reaches around 800K/150K, he will be fairly evenly balanced with rogues. At its worst, around newbie R6, people do not tend to cycle anyway, so it is not as important as it seems. In my experience, people do not start cycling as an integral part of hunts until at least ee san.

I suppose there are positives, though:

1.) We essentially leave the warrior untouched.

2.) Poets would not need to poet them differently.

3.) This is more likely to happen.

I do not think we can underestimate the power of each of these points. All of them relate to the odds of having something changed at all. After a decade of the attacks being virtually the same (barring the minor Whirlwind change), the odds of introducing Mana are quite low. I think we are better off going after a modest, positive change than a sweeping change.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Amaroq
post Feb 6 2007, 06:44 PM
Post #20


Enchanted
***

Group: Nobles
Posts: 103
Joined: 12-September 06
Member No.: 852



After reading the first few posts, then skimming a few, I have a few points to make.

Philosophically speaking, warriors have always been vita tanks, which probably has contributed to my thought process. The main thing I'd like to stress is

(PK) Though the warrior is not effectively able to double, with all vita stats, meaning a mil in vita, he not only has better ac than a rogue who spent the same experience (say, 640/180), he has more vita and therefore is more prepared to tank larger attacks. Also, for the experience spent, whirlwind is a more exp-effective spell, dealing 1.675 damage to 0 ac times the vitality. For a rogue to double effectively, he has to balance his vitality as well as mana, but for every point he puts into mana, that's less vita he has to use defensively and for taking hits.

10% and 50% remainders mean nothing. Do enough in a carnage and earn yourself a poet, or learn to heal out. It's simple. Half the tops in this game can be killed asv/sc now, your remainder isn't going to matter. Living or dying will always be based off of skill, not pure numbers. Unless you Kwi whirlwind in a Bloodlust and get ambushed after (sorry Chronic <3)

Not all of us choose to make carnage characters. I was maxed Chaos at 449,997 vitality with Sun war platemail and Old daemon hearts. When I used Sun plate and Forsaken rings, top mages could no longer double me dis sc; I was left with about 24k vita. A small number, but yes, ac added to all vita statistics do that. I'm not considering the fact that most of the mages used Forsaken rings instead of + mana items.

Anyway, formulas are fine as they are, we don't need mana incorporated into our attacks. I'd trade my Karak for Kae any day, even if it left me with 5%. Rogues have to balance stats, warriors have the liberty of going all vita and doing maximum damage with their attacks and being able to tank more. It's how they were created and meant to be; rogues have to balance vita and mana and have less ac.

and...
-Amaroq
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 20th July 2017 - 09:52 AM
Nexus Forums is part of: Nexus Atlas © all rights reserved.