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> Damage Formula And Polearms, Assistance needed
Tynan
post Jan 23 2007, 06:44 PM
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Okay, I need to catch a bus, so my time is limited.

This is the only formula I know of, as applied to fighters:

Damage = (8.8125 + Might/8 + 2.5*DAM + Weapon*Ingress)*Fury*Invisible

This of course does not take into account AC and assumes you only use the weapon's average damage. I do not really care AC, and it is simply enough to add if I did.

How accurate is this formula? Is it even close?

Secondly, where is the polearm's bonus multiplier for being a space away applied? Does it only multiply the weapon's damage, or does it multiply the whole result? This is a very large difference. I am hoping for the latter as then it can simply be dropped for the purpose of comparison, as it would scale the damage of each path equally. If it is the former, then I need to know what the multiplier is with some accuracy.

I made a spreadsheet for looking at damage across a fury and the damage per swing, and obviously it only works properly if I know the correct formulas and such. Right now I am playing around with what I know (or what I think I know based on old posts), and it is really quite interesting.
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Hugen
post Jan 24 2007, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE(Tynan @ Jan 23 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]24380[/snapback]
Damage = (8.8125 + Might/8 + 2.5*DAM + Weapon*Ingress)*Fury*Invisible


To add a few things which may be of use.

The above formula does not work precisely for all Might and Grace ranges, just all the ones that are usually of any concern.

The Might range it is restricted to is values north of about 72.
Grace isn't in the formula, and doesn't seem to matter, if Grace is north of about 100.

I was able to get the terms so precise by testing with my wife's Rogue when she turned 99. She started out with a Grace of around 100 and a low Might. She then purchased Might point-by-point and we recorded the strike results. That is one of the reasons Grace does not appear.

When testing with a new 99 Warrior, whose Grace and Might numbers are reversed, you will notice a loss of about 6 points of damage. (From the Grace of 40 or so versus 100)

Grace isn't in the formula, however, because we have never been able to lower it from 130 enough with Corrupted rings and such to "break" the formula as written.


The Weapon*Ingress term is probably more properly expressed as (Weapon/2)*Ingress, where Weapon is a value in the range of X to Y from the S:XmY of the weapon.

The reason for this is because the formula is, as you stated, for AC 0. However, I believe, the appraised damage values for the weapons are for AC 100. (Which makes just as much sense, since a level 0 character would have a 100 AC. That way the ranges have a very close relationship with the actual damage done by new characters.)


The Polearm Factor appears to belong on the "outside" with the Fury and Invisibility multipliers. Brief testing from late 2003, shortly after the Polearms came into being, showed it to vary from Polearm to Polearm. The results observed at that time were:

Polearm: 2x,
Heavy Polearm: 2.3x, and
Military Polearm: 2.5x.

The formula used to be very accurate. (Occassionally off by 1 point due to rounding or such.) Whether any of the constants have changed or not since I last tested it extensively in 2003, I can not say for sure.

I did retest Invisible just the other night with my wife, and it was doing a 9x damage multiple. In the past I have seen it do an 8x. So, nothing is written in stone, or wasn't anyway. They used to tweak things occassionally. I still remember when we used to get a 1.5x bonus for striking a Flank. Now it is just 2x for striking the Rear.


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Tynan
post Jan 24 2007, 12:12 PM
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All right, thanks for the help. Indeed, I actually discovered the Invisible multiplier was 9x a while ago...another hidden buff to rogues? Perhaps. It does increases their damage output by a full 12.5%.

Anyway, I am going to do some playing around with numbers and post my results. I am going to drop the polearm multipliers because my comparison will be between Chung Ryongs and Rogues, and a multiplier such as that would cancel out, anyway. This simplifies things a bit, I suppose, as the actual value does matter so long as I can cancel it and maintain proportionality.
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Hugen
post Jan 24 2007, 01:06 PM
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I ran some numbers too, with simple gear (Wind armor, Ambrosia & Corrupted rings, etc.) and got the following values for average strike strengths per cycle. How do they match up with what you are seeing?

(Values are 1000's of average damage per swing.)

Level/Stat Progression 1: sub-Enchant 99
4.1 ChungRyong w/ Scale, Rage 1-3 {1.8 > 3.2 > 4.6}
5.5 ChungRyong w/ Polearm, Rage 1-3 {2.5 > 4.3 > 6.2}
9.0 Baekho w/ Polearm, Cunning 1-2 {7.9 > 9.2}

Level/Stat Progression 2: Enchant Stats
5.7 ChungRyong w/ Enchanted Scale, Rage 1-4 {2.1 > 3.7 > 5.4 > 7.0}
6.6 ChungRyong w/ Polearm, Rage 1-4 {2.5 > 4.3 > 6.2 > 8.1}
10.8 Baekho w/ Polearm, Cunning 1-3 {7.9 > 9.2 > 11.9}

Level/Stat Progression 3: Il san Stats
11.4 Fury w/ Il san Scale, Rage 1-5 {3.5 > 6.1 > 8.7 > 11.2 > 15.6}
13.0 Fury w/ Military Polearm, Rage 1-5 {4.0 > 6.9 > 9.9 > 12.9 > 17.8}
14.6 Cunning w/ Heavy Polearm, Cunning 1-4 {10.0 > 11.7 > 15.1 > 16.7}

Level/Stat Progression 4: Ee san Stats
16.4 Assault w/ Ee san Scale, Rage 1-5 {5.0 > 8.7 > 12.5 > 16.2 > 22.4}
19.1 Assault w/ Military Polearm, Rage 1-5 {5.8 > 10.2 > 14.5 > 18.9 > 26.1}
26.5 Assault w/ Ee san Scale, Rage 1-6 {5.0 > 8.7 > 12.5 > 16.2 > 22.4 > 50.4}
30.8 Assault w/ Military Polearm, Rage 1-6 {5.8 > 10.2 > 14.5 > 18.9 > 26.1 > 58.7}
23.5 Swift w/ Military Polearm, Cunning 1-5 {15.0 > 17.5 > 22.4 > 24.9 > 29.9}

Level/Stat Progression 5: Sam san Stats
19.0 Barrage w/ Sam san Scale, Rage 1-5 {5.8 > 10.1 > 14.5 > 18.8 > 26.0}
19.1 Barrage w/ Military Polearm, Rage 1-5 {5.8 > 10.2 > 14.5 > 18.9 > 26.1}
30.7 Barrage w/ Sam san Scale, Rage 1-6 {5.8 > 10.1 > 14.5 > 18.8 > 26.0 > 58.5}
30.8 Barrage w/ Military Polearm, Rage 1-6 {5.8 > 10.2 > 14.5 > 18.9 > 26.1 > 58.7}
28.3 Shikari w/ Military Polearm, Cunning 1-5 {18.0 > 21.0 > 27.0 > 30.0 > 36.0}


If you are getting the same results, then I really can't understand how there can be any justifiable penalties to Rages 1-5, as Rogues are exceeding this level of damage output with no penalties.
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Tynan
post Jan 24 2007, 02:10 PM
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I posted my results on a new thread, including the data in a downloadable form. Assuming I did not mess things up too badly, you can play around with numbers in the included spreadsheets and see what comes up, too.

I do believe we get the same numbers in terms of proportion. The values are different, but we both seem to come up with the same differences between rogues and warriors.

As for the Rage penalty, I feel you are correct - anyone looking at the data can plainly see warriors are paying a large penalty for nothing. R6 is amazing, but that is it - the rest of the Rage is quite terrible, barring R5, which is not too great when one reaches Vortex3, but is at least passable. R1-R3 are quite close to useless, though I suppose any damage is better than none.
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