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> What Stagnation Looks Like, Data from November '16
Doctor
post Dec 6 2016, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 6 2016, 07:59 AM) *
Yes. Don't you have special insight into this? Please elaborate if so - that would be the easiest way to shut me up. Maybe DM can weigh in. Last I checked, copy+paste was a thing in computing. Also, the delete key is a thing. Dev presses delete until only pre-Vortex caves remain, delete overflow, delete Woodlands, delete Nagnang, delete Tangun, control+c, control+v, and voila! New, retro server. It's not like you're reinventing the wheel - the code is already there. I'm guessing it would take a single person one month to do this project once they understand how everything works. A year from now, the new devs Wony hired this year should be familiar enough to pull it off, no? Maybe tack on another month for Wony to set up CRM stuff, prep kruna shop, etc. The problem with asking for new content is that it's not easy to dream up new, solid content. It's far easier to reuse content that's already been built. No creativity necessary.


No that's not how it works. You can't just delete code and then things revert back to how they are. Think of it like like a sweater. You don't just get to pull out the threads you don't like and all of a sudden it becomes a t-shirt. Everything is mixed in with each other.

I don't think anyone wants to play a "retro" NexusTK except for you. Furthermore, what's the end goal? The game was BAD back then, it would be even worse now. So yeah, great, selling exp at 99 becomes relevant again. So in many years the game just becomes what it is now. 99 is easy to get to, leeching is simple, etc. So then what? We re-retro once again?

This feels like the least fleshed out idea of all time for so many reaons.


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Xing-Yu Seong
post Dec 6 2016, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Dec 6 2016, 05:26 PM) *
No that's not how it works. You can't just delete code and then things revert back to how they are. Think of it like like a sweater. You don't just get to pull out the threads you don't like and all of a sudden it becomes a t-shirt. Everything is mixed in with each other.

I don't think anyone wants to play a "retro" NexusTK except for you. Furthermore, what's the end goal? The game was BAD back then, it would be even worse now. So yeah, great, selling exp at 99 becomes relevant again. So in many years the game just becomes what it is now. 99 is easy to get to, leeching is simple, etc. So then what? We re-retro once again?

This feels like the least fleshed out idea of all time for so many reaons.



Yeah, having read through this, I would have to agree.

There are too many systems tied in to build a server to begin with. Look at any of the private servers from a technical standpoint.
They have to set up a host, spend hundreds of hours just to define the parameters for what does what when, and then creates thousands of entries for items, stats, etc. It is no easy task. The mechanics of how this game works is math. The math is bad. It has been bad since I can remember. The Poet tutors of days old would spend a long, long time pouring over the math trying to figure out Ret. RET wasn't just 33%, there was more to it. The game works on such a simple engine that when the math is bad, it really shows.

I have always thought that Free To Play until 99, and getting rid of Tangun would be great. Replace the time-gating with registering. Make certain functions related to communication limited. People are too concerned with abuse they are letting the game die. Keep some of the Trials, but streamline the process. If people could just log in, it'd be awesome, but could the servers handle it? Who knows.

I will be the first to admit some of my ideas are flawed. But to segment an entire population in the game for a quick cash-infusion that would take more man-hours to do, and probably ROI very little, is not the answer. The problems that exist in this game will continue to exist on any other server there is. You cannot just undo all these changes, because that is WAY too much work, and a ton of risk on Kru's part.

Creating a separate server would be another Tangun all over again. If you foster segmentation, you will only get splinters. That's how we got this weird elitism with Player-controlled justice, ministries, clans, and paths. People could control your destiny in this game, and that's a huge detriment if a clique of people have power over you.
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Xyphier
post Dec 6 2016, 05:59 PM
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Sorry, but as much as you would like a retro-server to be the end-all be-all solution, the truth of the matter is that it isn't.

If you ask me, and I think everyone can agree, the #1 issue that needs to be resolved before anything else, is to address the current server infrastructure.

Now, I don't know what Wony has planned for bringing in new players (advertising, selling through steam, etc) but if we think the server lag and the client freezing every several minutes is bad now, think of how bad it will get when add more players and how quickly that will detract those new players from wanting to pay/continue playing.
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halombobtk
post Dec 6 2016, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE
That would have incredibly resource intensive, and knowing that they hosted on Windows 2003 servers for... forever, seems unlikely.

Aren't they on AWS now?
QUOTE (Doctor @ Dec 6 2016, 06:26 PM) *
This feels like the least fleshed out idea of all time for so many reaons.

Says the guy who can't spellcheck his posts =/. What a perfect way to end this reply!

It's so baffling to me that all of you frequent this forum - one that gets ~one post per day on average - yet you don't take the time to actually read the posts. Why even come here? I've had to say it sosososo many times. I'm not asking for retro graphics. All I've been lobbying for is a pre-Vortex, pre-Tangun, pre-Nagnang blank slate server. Who cares about the graphics?? They're both retro-looking. Whatever's easiest to implement is what Wony would do anyway, so I'm guessing he'd use the newer graphics.
QUOTE
I don't think anyone wants to play a "retro" NexusTK except for you.

Again with the nonexistent reading comprehension. I've posted recent evidence of supporters in this very thread (bottom of page 1). Why would you ever think I'm the only person out of >2k former players who feels this way? Am I Jesus or something? Neo?
QUOTE
So in many years the game just becomes what it is now.

That's totally and completely fine. 1k-3k hours from a new server would be a success, and no one would even have to get to Sa San. I don't think you can reasonably ask for much more than that considering we're down to ~66 active users on average. Anything that gets people excited to play again for more than a year should be viewed as overwhelmingly positive. Oh San might accomplish this, but I'm skeptical since the vast majority of former players aren't Oh stats. Most of the people trickling in since August have been rolling new characters, and it's not like I'll be restoring my Sam Sans when Oh San gets released. I would've done it for Sa if that were the case. Other former players fit this logic. A blank slate is far more appealing to us than anything else, which is why new servers have worked in the past.
QUOTE
No that's not how it works. You can't just delete code and then things revert back to how they are. Think of it like like a sweater. You don't just get to pull out the threads you don't like and all of a sudden it becomes a t-shirt. Everything is mixed in with each other.

I think my favorite part of your logic here is how I have a conversation from reddit that I can link where you argue how easy it is to code this game. Surely removing maps/caves isn't as hard as you're making it out to be. How long do you think it would take you, personally, to take the existing code and make a retro server out of it? Be honest.
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Hijack
post Dec 7 2016, 09:38 PM
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I didn't think it was possible for anyone to get to DarkMaverick's level, but you sir... you did it. Congratulations.

You want a retro server? Hire me and I'll make you one.
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halombobtk
post Dec 7 2016, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Dec 7 2016, 09:38 PM) *
I didn't think it was possible for anyone to get to DarkMaverick's level, but you sir... you did it. Congratulations.

You want a retro server? Hire me and I'll make you one.


Honestly, not terrible company to be in. We think critically, convey opinions with semi-coherent arguments, and have both owned our own businesses. I'm guessing if I continue to post on these forums, I will eventually have as many "bad day" posts as DM, though I like to think I've got a decent handle on identifying when I'm being irrational/heated. If you look through my NTK reddit posts, there are plenty of times where I was being a dick to people, but just look at yourselves - so many posts exclusively written to belittle someone. I could pull a bunch of examples from my threads alone.

How long do you think it would take you? What would your strategy be? Do you have access to the current code or would you be forced to start from scratch?
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Hijack
post Dec 7 2016, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 7 2016, 09:51 PM) *
Do you have access to the current code or would you be forced to start from scratch?


lol this guy
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halombobtk
post Dec 8 2016, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE
so many posts exclusively written to belittle someone.

QUOTE (Hijack @ Dec 7 2016, 11:19 PM) *
lol this guy

Like clockwork.
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Brant
post Dec 8 2016, 10:09 AM
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It's happening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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Songa
post Dec 8 2016, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE (Xing-Yu Seong @ Dec 6 2016, 04:58 PM) *
Almost! As it was an option existed in the client, it was just a switch. The graphics were on an offset, and they had a fancy excel spreadsheet (SQL tables!) to say "when you select this, translate X tile to Y tile". Having done maps for some of the privates, I can tell you that the client contains every graphic current and old in it. Running two servers would mean that people on that server would be logging into a different resource. There would have been a separate login server, two Kugnaes, etc etc. That would have incredibly resource intensive, and knowing that they hosted on Windows 2003 servers for... forever, seems unlikely. smile.gif



Thanks for the clarification! It makes more (or less, depending on how you look at it) sense now. It sounds far more complicated than I thought haha. I honestly don't get the appeal in trying to fix this massively broken game. It would be easier to start fresh. Nexon knew that, that's why they left to create their own company.
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darkmaverick
post Dec 8 2016, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 6 2016, 09:59 AM) *
Yes. Don't you have special insight into this? Please elaborate if so - that would be the easiest way to shut me up. Maybe DM can weigh in. Last I checked, copy+paste was a thing in computing. Also, the delete key is a thing. Dev presses delete until only pre-Vortex caves remain, delete overflow, delete Woodlands, delete Nagnang, delete Tangun, control+c, control+v, and voila! New, retro server. It's not like you're reinventing the wheel - the code is already there. I'm guessing it would take a single person one month to do this project once they understand how everything works. A year from now, the new devs Wony hired this year should be familiar enough to pull it off, no? Maybe tack on another month for Wony to set up CRM stuff, prep kruna shop, etc. The problem with asking for new content is that it's not easy to dream up new, solid content. It's far easier to reuse content that's already been built. No creativity necessary.


Hypothetically? Maybe.

Realistically? I doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn one of the core problems with NexusTK has been years of low paid programmers using all kinds of shortcuts and tricks, with code referencing some other code buried deeply in some obscure file. And there may or may not actually be any detailed documentation about what code does what. I mean, supposedly they "lost" the code to some event enemies like Zibongs. It's probably not lost, it's just buried on the server somewhere because Grin decided he would have job security if he was the only one who could understand his code.

This is just speculation, of course. But I don't know why anyone would want to delete decades of content that they have been paying for people to develop, unless it really hurts the game, which sure some of it does but only because it needs a few tweaks to correct the problem. So sure they could start deleting stuff but I suspect they would need to do a lot of bug testing to find all the [Content removed] that breaks when they start deleting stuff.

There is a difference between fixing a few leaky pipes in your house, and throwing your entire plumbing system out to replace it. And right now the analogy would be to replace all of the leaking PVC pipes with corroded rusty ones.

Also, Hijack would probably just take the server code the NexusTK clones are using and develop a stand alone client for it -- which honestly, that's what all these people making emulators should have done to begin with.

I will save you some time though. Go look at Illutia, which is pretty much exactly what you are thinking. Go see how poorly that game is doing and then re-evaluate whether this is really as amazing of a commercial idea as you think it is.


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halombobtk
post Dec 8 2016, 11:46 PM
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Thanks for the posts, fellas.

@Brant Lol, not sure how I haven't seen that before. So good. Yes, lots of similarities, but there are some important differences. The people in the video were asking for impossible things. It should be obv that what I'm asking for isn't impossible, since it's literally been done before. All the maps, monster values, dmg multipliers, item stats, quests, etc. are plastered on this very site. The other important concept that gets lost in all this is the power of a blank slate. Even if you simply duped the current server and nuked all the heroes, it would draw a crowd. Former players who are thinking about returning, including me, would go nuts over a blank slate. It's the same reason why every private server has had success, despite ugly maps, bugs, and annoying GMs like Stelio. Racing to 99/Il/Ee is fun for some people, even if only for a year or two.

It also doesn't help your argument much when Doctor (possibly the most qualified person in this thread to speak on the matter) says things like this to me on reddit:



@DM "Go look at Illutia, which is pretty much exactly what you are thinking." Err, I'd look at it but their Game FAQ is just a broken link. Gunna go ahead and assume your comparison is lacking.
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Doctor
post Dec 9 2016, 05:15 AM
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Let me make it super simple, and also state that Hijack is more qualified than me to speak on this:

Adding to the current game, "creating" a private server, easy.

Removing things from the current game, "reverting" the current game into a private server, not easy.

If you want to make a retro server that's like old school nexus I'll give you all the files to go run a private server of Aspereta. It's essentially the same thing as old school Nexus but it has a tiered dungeon system that you can get gear from. Enjoy. https://github.com/kyokokken/jGoose


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Hijack
post Dec 9 2016, 08:12 AM
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tbh a server with buya, kugnae, wilderness and mythic wouldn't take that long to create

the hardest part would be getting all the maps, but if I remember right one of our friendly archons went through and helped with that

but nobody wants to do it because only 5-10 people would play and it would be a waste of time
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OwnageII
post Dec 9 2016, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Dec 9 2016, 09:12 AM) *
tbh a server with buya, kugnae, wilderness and mythic wouldn't take that long to create

the hardest part would be getting all the maps, but if I remember right one of our friendly archons went through and helped with that

but nobody wants to do it because only 5-10 people would play and it would be a waste of time


This.

Would just need the maps.
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Doctor
post Dec 9 2016, 01:52 PM
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Right but remember this guy wants a retro server. Implement that packet throttle and all the buggy [Content removed] from back then to go along with it.


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darkmaverick
post Dec 9 2016, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 8 2016, 11:46 PM) *
@DM "Go look at Illutia, which is pretty much exactly what you are thinking." Err, I'd look at it but their Game FAQ is just a broken link. Gunna go ahead and assume your comparison is lacking.


Your first impulse was to go to GameFAQs rather than just Googling its website?

Illutia is a perfect comparison because the game was originally made by Inkey, a Nexus player who wanted exactly the old school NexusTK experience you are wanting.



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halombobtk
post Dec 9 2016, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Dec 9 2016, 08:30 PM) *
Your first impulse was to go to GameFAQs rather than just Googling its website?

Illutia is a perfect comparison because the game was originally made by Inkey, a Nexus player who wanted exactly the old school NexusTK experience you are wanting.

The "Game FAQ" button on the Illutia website is broken. Also, "exactly the old school NexusTK experience" I want is not a completely different game. What the actual [Content removed]?

We're fixating on the wrong things here. Former players who are coming back to the game are creating new heroes, not restoring old ones. It's not even an option right now. >90% of these players will prefer to start out on even footing (or close to it), on a server with a fresh, non-broken economy. All I am personally looking for is a blank slate with the same quests I remember, the same carnages, bloodlusts, elixir wars, fox hunts, the same caves, the same crafting, the same handful of maps. None of you are really making it sound like this is difficult to pull off, which makes sense because I'm simply asking for rehashed content. The request is supposed to be simple because I try to stay firmly planted in reality. Wony just isn't going to implement all the changes you guys want.

I really enjoyed Mythic being a central hub where people hung out to find hunts, and this is a popular opinion among former players looking to rejoin the game (so, none of you people in this echo chamber of a thread). It's important to keep the number of maps/caves small when the player base of your game is small. This keeps it from feeling like a single-player MMO ghost town.

Not all former players will want all the things I listed, but the blank slate part is important. I also feel it needs to be Kru-sponsored, Tangun-less, and less laggy. I'm not sure any of the other "retro" things really matter. I'm just speculating what people would enjoy the most out of our extremely limited options for ways to grow the game significantly. All the wishes for new, modern content is just lol to me. It's like none of you have been paying attention for the last 10 years, or the last 6 months in particular.

Hijack, if you really think only 5-10 people would play, let's bet on it. I would happily take the over on that amount of daily avg users after a new server was up for a year. Would you take the under on 10.5 people?
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darkmaverick
post Dec 10 2016, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 9 2016, 10:01 PM) *
The "Game FAQ" button on the Illutia website is broken. Also, "exactly the old school NexusTK experience" I want is not a completely different game. What the actual [Content removed]?


Indeed. You seem to think a half-assed excuse like part of the website being broken is an excuse for not downloading the client and checking the game out to verify what I am saying. Or, you know, at least looking at some YouTube videos. Rather you want to discard the existence of Illutia, which is pretty much what you are arguing for in terms of game mechanics. But now we get to the heart of what you're really after; you want to play a rolled back version of NexusTK from when you first registered an account and personally re-live what you recall as its glory days. You do not actually care about its present commercial appeal in the market, and you just want to personally re-live that period of time from your life.

Well, sorry but that's profoundly nonsensical for so many reasons, as we are about to get into.

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 9 2016, 10:01 PM) *
We're fixating on the wrong things here. Former players who are coming back to the game are creating new heroes, not restoring old ones. It's not even an option right now. >90% of these players will prefer to start out on even footing (or close to it), on a server with a fresh, non-broken economy. All I am personally looking for is a blank slate with the same quests I remember, the same carnages, bloodlusts, elixir wars, fox hunts, the same caves, the same crafting, the same handful of maps. None of you are really making it sound like this is difficult to pull off, which makes sense because I'm simply asking for rehashed content. The request is supposed to be simple because I try to stay firmly planted in reality. Wony just isn't going to implement all the changes you guys want.


"Former players who are coming back"? Your own data indicates this isn't a true statement. Nobody is coming back.

Maybe people log onto a newbie because they get nostalgic and just want to check out the game for abit, or even go to re-reg an old account. But then they quickly recall the reasons why they left in the first place and they leave. It isn't because some people have millions more vita than they do or because people do not sit AFK in Mythic Vale occasionally saging for a party or an item they are selling. They leave because the game is not as fun as other MMOs. It offers nothing of substantial improvement in any particular area. A lot of the people still actively playing are addicts who have serious problems in their personal lives and are avoiding reality for the feeling of elitism, power and community they get from playing the same online game for the past two decades of their life. It isn't healthy and it's certainly not an indicator that a new server is what they want. It is actually rather tragic because out of the nigh infinite number of things they could be doing with their lives, they decided to invest their time and money into a [Content removed] game made by a company that doesn't care about them. And somehow in all of this, you think a new server with features you are personally nostalgic for will be a grand hit?

Nostalgia can be a powerful thing but looking at the past with rose-colored glasses makes for a terrible business plan. The game had humongous problems even in its heyday which is why it was the LEAST MOST POPULAR MMO AT THE TIME WHEN THERE WAS ONLY A HANDFUL OF MMOs.. Ultima Online, Everquest, and Lineage had way more players. Hell, the original Baram in Korea was vastly more popular than NexusTK ever was, because NexusTK was horribly managed from day 1. There was a period of three years where the game introduced absolutely no new content, and just recycled the same seasonal events with little to no changes whatsoever. We once went an entire year with no GM. This is not some spectacular design that everyone universally loved and appreciated. A lot of older players stuck around primarily because of the friendships they formed with people and not because the game was that fun to play. As newer, significantly better designed and managed MMOs came out, the playerbase gradually left for those.

You can invent any kind of idea you like for why the game was never popular but I played the game for a substantial number of years during this heyday period you speak of. I even recall the full page PC Gamer ad that Nexon took out and included a CD download of the game client. We got an influx of newbies for a few weeks, and then it petered out after about a month, because people just did not enjoy the crappy mechanics and limited gameplay compared to other MMOs that were out at the time. That is just the blunt truth. The game had problems and under Wony's management, they never got addressed because he hires people totally unqualified to be GMs of an MMO to run his games.

Frankly, there is not that many people who want to roll back the clock on a [Content removed]ty game to a point in time where it was even [Content removed]tier than it is now. The game needs its current issues resolved so that it can become popular enough for a second server. Right now it isn't even popular enough for one server.

I swear, NexusTK and City of Heroes have some of the most anal die-hard fanboys of any MMOs out there, who even when faced with the blunt truth reality that their most favorite game in the universe actually had critical flaws that led to their decline, they just refuse to accept it because they found something within that period of their life they can't let go of, and it has nothing -- absolutely nothing at all -- to do with the way they game mechanics were, and everything to do with the personal importance they placed into the game at a [Content removed]ty period of their life. That is the only way I can rationalize the obsession with remembering terrible game mechanic choices as some kind of thing everyone universally loved and that if only the game would be back to its former crappy state, everything would be right in the world.

You got to get over it, man. The version of NexusTK you want to play never really existed to begin with and the reason people can universally disagree with your ideas is because we all lived through this version of the game you are talking about, and we remember how it actually was rather than how you recall it to have been.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

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Doctor
post Dec 10 2016, 06:09 PM
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People aren't restoring their old characters because KRU isn't doing that service anymore. Not be cause they want to make and play new characters.


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