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> What Stagnation Looks Like, Data from November '16
Conro
post Dec 3 2016, 07:28 PM
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Pretty much, yeah, I won't be back.

It was a great game for what it filled in the market at the time, but the current model just doesn't work.

The private server E-TK did a great job of getting me reeled in and hooking me for a few months. It had what the game lacked, and had a bit more attention (especially for being a free to play game). If anything, KRU could learn a few things (how to create instances, how to create raids, how to create dungeons with lockouts and worthwhile gear, how to make quests, how to strike a balance between gear treadmill and horizontal progression).


KRU won't do that though.


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darkmaverick
post Dec 3 2016, 10:18 PM
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Was there supposed to be a link in your post? I'm not sure what data you are referencing.


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halombobtk
post Dec 3 2016, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Dec 3 2016, 10:18 PM) *
Was there supposed to be a link in your post? I'm not sure what data you are referencing.


I embedded an image at the top of my OP. Looks fine for me mellow.gif

http://i65.tinypic.com/15cebsz.png
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darkmaverick
post Dec 4 2016, 11:43 PM
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Ah for some reason images didnt load for me the first time.


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darkmaverick
post Dec 4 2016, 11:57 PM
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I do not disagree with your conclusion that Nexus is stagnating but your solution I don't think will work.

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 3 2016, 02:16 PM) *
"Kru doesn't want that. Wony doesn't want that."

First off, Kru and Wony have one priority: USD.


This is true, but Wony's opinion on the best way to make money is not in line with anyone else's.

Wony has always operated this game with the intent to spend as little money as possible running the game while trying to milk the playerbase through item shop sales.

I hoped that would have changed when he started posting directly, but it seems obvious that KRU will not be making any substantial changes to its business model.

QUOTE
Second, Wony himself said that my idea was interesting, just not something he wanted to pursue at this time (August '16).


That was just a nice way of saying he has no intentions to do it.


I also don't understand the obsession with a so-called "retro server" but the problems with this have been debated to death I think. They really need to fix the current server's gameplay problems before making a new server.

QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 3 2016, 01:51 PM) *
Conro's posts are always going to be derailing because he has far higher standards for this game than the average former player. He knows its failings intricately and is an intelligent/analytical dude. The 2k+ target market of former players and their fam/friends, on average, are not as smart as Conro or anyone else in this thread except Krmit (lol). At the end of one year, only ~66 of them still need to be actively playing on the new server to make it a worthwhile endeavor. That would double the current number of active users and be a nice boost in revenue for Kru with microscopic variable costs. The license, AWS, building, devs, etc. are already paid for. I doubt they'd even need to hire someone new to build/maintain it, as they could simply dial back all the useless updates we've seen so far on the existing server. After launch, maintenance would be minimal. With retro pacing and maps, there is more than enough content to churn through for 1-3k hours with everyone starting new. Grinding to 99 would take ages compared to how it is now, and people would be making multiple characters to max Glory/Legends/Ancients. Mounts, crafting bags, and misc. kruna for every character would be more than enough to justify the project, even if it died after a couple years.


Firstly, Conro's post aren't really derailing if he's just pointing out a differing point of view.

Secondly, Conro is not the only former player who has actually played other MMOs. If you play one MMO, you probably play others, too. The observations Conro has made can be made by anyone who has played any other MMO besides Nexus, especially any made in the past decade.

Thirdly, I think you are severely over-estimating how many people will actually pay $10 a month to play NexusTK circa 1999-2001. Part of the nostalgia was the people who were active at the time, and those still interested in MMOs are not going to be dumping WoW and FFXIV for a game where one or two buttons represents the vast majority of gameplay for each class, whether it is holding spacebar for Warriors, Ambush + Invis for Rogues, zaps for Mages and healspam for Poets. There is this mechanic called rotations which WoW introduced 12 years ago that almost everyone agrees was a novel improvement to the point every MMO does it now. Old-school Nexus gameplay just is not that compelling, and what people remember are more the players they played with rather than their absolute love of mashing the same button for five hours a night while they killed farm animals that respawned in one room.

If you want to spend money into proving me wrong, by all means make a clone of NexusTK circa 1999. It's not terribly difficult to do these days with all the software available and pixel tileset resources floating around the net for reasonable licenses. It doesn't have to look exactly like Nexus to be Nexus, and if people really want the gameplay they will come play it as you say. But I rather doubt it since will judge it against other MMOs. We know how well these mechanics will work out, because Nexus already did it. Even when there was only Ultima Online to compete with in the NA market, people overwhelmingly did not choose to play NexusTK, and as games like Everquest, Ragnarok Online, Dark Ages of Camelot and WoW came out people went to those games instead.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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halombobtk
post Dec 5 2016, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Dec 4 2016, 11:57 PM) *
Wony has always operated this game with the intent to spend as little money as possible running the game while trying to milk the playerbase through item shop sales.

Holy mother of god how do you guys not see that a new, retro server falls perfectly in line with this statement? I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone. A new server where you rehash old content is exactly how you milk a former player base. If it's easy for them to pull off, they'll do it eventually, simply for the kruna sales. Not a difficult concept here, fellas.
QUOTE
I also don't understand the obsession with a so-called "retro server" but the problems with this have been debated to death I think. They really need to fix the current server's gameplay problems before making a new server.

And I equally don't understand the obsession with turning an old, simple game like NexusTK into a modern MMO. Why not just play a modern MMO if that's what you're looking for?
QUOTE
Firstly, Conro's post aren't really derailing if he's just pointing out a differing point of view.

This is correct. Not the right word to use at all. It was a bad way of trying to say that his "necessary improvements" aren't relevant to my OP. They just don't matter much to the target market for a retro server. I liked the game with all its faults, and I'm not alone.
QUOTE
Secondly, Conro is not the only former player who has actually played other MMOs. If you play one MMO, you probably play others, too. The observations Conro has made can be made by anyone who has played any other MMO besides Nexus, especially any made in the past decade.

Still think you're giving the bottom half of the NexusTK player pool too much credit here (I guarantee many former NexusTK players have sunk time and money into Candy Crush and FarmVille). Even so, it's not like that will always deter people from wanting to play a familiar game. It should be clear by now that I tend to analyze the crap out of things, but there will always be people like me who still want to play a simplistic, retro game.
QUOTE
Thirdly, I think you are severely over-estimating how many people will actually pay $10 a month to play NexusTK circa 1999-2001.

Possibly, but you might also be severely over-estimating how much $10 means to people in their late 20s and 30s. If you zoom out just a little, Stelio's server looked a whole lot like NexusTK circa 1999-2001, yet people still pay >$10/month for it. No one ever seems to address that when I bring it up though - how convenient.
QUOTE
Part of the nostalgia was the people who were active at the time, and those still interested in MMOs are not going to be dumping WoW and FFXIV for a game where one or two buttons represents the vast majority of gameplay for each class, whether it is holding spacebar for Warriors, Ambush + Invis for Rogues, zaps for Mages and healspam for Poets. There is this mechanic called rotations which WoW introduced 12 years ago that almost everyone agrees was a novel improvement to the point every MMO does it now. Old-school Nexus gameplay just is not that compelling, and what people remember are more the players they played with rather than their absolute love of mashing the same button for five hours a night while they killed farm animals that respawned in one room.

You made my point for me laugh.gif. I've played rotation-based, modern MMOs, and guess what? After a few weeks/months, rotations are just as mundane as holding down spacebar, but with a little more carpal-tunnel. After you've figured out optimum builds/rotations, executing them is no different than spamming heal in NTK. You're using system 1 (Thinking Fast and Slow) and it's no longer compelling. There's a reason single-player MMOs aren't fun for most people. No matter how intricate you make the rotations, theorycrafting, etc. people will always get bored if there's no one to play with. I'm of the mindset that dopamine scheduling and community are far more important than anything else for MMOs. NexusTK's original design nailed both. The community only has the chance to make a small comeback if enough people sub at the same time and all make characters together. Dismissing the value of a new server entirely shows that you aren't grasping this basic concept. I think part of the problem is that everyone seems to be fixated on the "retro" part. Hate to break it to ya, but that's wayyyyyyyy more likely to happen than some utopia where Wony modernizes everything.
QUOTE
If you want to spend money into proving me wrong, by all means make a clone of NexusTK circa 1999.

I want to play, not run, the game. Doing both is obv not an option.
QUOTE
We know how well these mechanics will work out, because Nexus already did it.

Yeah, game only lasted a measly eighteen [Content removed]ing years, rofl. How can you possibly be trying to make this argument? Game obv still fills a niche and lives on with zero marketing. I'm guessing 30 minutes of social media outreach is all you'd need to get people to check out a new server. A hundred or so show up for launch, tell friends/fam, and all of a sudden 66 active users isn't so outlandish.
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Doctor
post Dec 5 2016, 03:31 AM
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Dude. I don't understand what what you think would be rehashed. The game's content right now is pretty much EXACTLY what it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. The game is better now than it was back then, simply because there is more content now than there was back then. There is nothing better about "back then" than right now. The only difference was that NexusTK wasn't an archaic monstrosity of a game compared to what was around back then, and so more people played it. As more games came into the world, as better games came into the world, people left NexusTK.

Creating a retro server does nothing. It doesn't bring back anything that we don't have now. It doesn't change anything. The problems that have caused the game to die out right now would be the exact same problems that would exist in a retro server.


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halombobtk
post Dec 5 2016, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Dec 5 2016, 04:31 AM) *
The game's content right now is pretty much EXACTLY what it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. The game is better now than it was back then, simply because there is more content now than there was back then. There is nothing better about "back then" than right now.

1. Takes 3 hours to get to 99 instead of 3 weeks. If you don't see the difference and why that matters, your brain must be switched off.
2. Adventure/Glory/Legends doesn't even exist anymore.
3. Quests are broken because everyone just has everything. Need a bunch of WBs for Rogue Moon? Just ask around, people will give you them for free.
4. Blank slate. <--- Stop fixating on the retro part of a new server, because this point is massive for a new server's target market.
5. There is zero incentive to take up most crafting efforts. Starting a new warrior who's a gemcutter? Everyone's already GM+. Pursuing a craft feels hollow because your clanmate can just do it for you. There goes about 1/4 of the game.
6. Starting a new character and looking to hunt? Oh ya, no one is anywhere near your stats. How do you not understand how this is different than a new server?
7. As a result of 6, leeching is the only real way to progress which makes the game incredible dull. Leeching would go away overnight on a retro server, then eventually come back in a vastly diminished state since old school NTK didn't have all the extreme leeching opportunities it does now.

I just gave you 7 real, tangible examples of how the two servers would be different (and I just woke up!). I'm guessing you won't directly address any of them, just like you didn't address anything from my last post where I @Doctor'd you. When one person pulls quotes and directly addresses them in an argument and the other doesn't, it's generally a sign that the person pulling quotes cares more and has a stronger argument. It shows I'm actually thinking, while you're on autopilot, spewing nonsense. I mean, saying "There is nothing better about 'back then' than right now" is just blatantly wrong. At the very least, you're ignoring all the community/dreams/reddit posts over the years of people wishing Glory/Legends were a thing again. It's so easy to poke holes in your posts, yet so difficult for you to poke holes in mine. 90% of the replies in this thread amount to "I don't think that will work" with weak or zero logic backing it up. Once again, DM is the only person who even tried because he's one of the only people on these forums who can think critically.
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halombobtk
post Dec 5 2016, 10:39 AM
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To emphasize how weak the replies were:

Out of 8 non-Conro or DM replies, 6 were incredibly short with nothing backing up their opinion. Not a great batting average.

Krmit made a four sentence post comparing it to old school nintendo (lol).

Your initial reply was three sentences saying people don't play because the game sucks, which is easily debunked by the fact that people keep coming back to it and about a hundred people still play it after 18 years. Every week there's a new player posting on the subreddit. Game obv doesn't suck to all those people.

Ace wrote two sentences saying "I don't think a retro server is a good idea. I wouldn't play it aside from a brief log in to check it out." That actually supports my argument, if anything. There is a nonzero chance people like him would log in and eventually stick around.

Brant, like always, made an attempt at an argument. Easily one of the highest-content posters on this forum. Still, his fear of one subset of hunters out-hunting everyone else is a non-issue. With retro progression, the hardcore hunters would still be making multiple characters for maxing Glory/Legends/Ancients, and pacing was so much slower that it would take thousands of hours for there to be a significant divide in the community. Even with a divide, the more casual hunters would still be progressing together.

Mazel's post was three sentences that included a "your mom" joke. The meat of his post referenced how a new server wouldn't work because too many former players have significant others, which is just goddamn ridiculous. Having significant others might even improve the chances for a new server since they have the potential to introduce them to the game. Also, can't really ignore the fact that MMO players skew heavily toward being single with lots of spare time.

Then, of course, another post by you comparing a game people used to put literally thousands of hours into to Mavis Beacon Type Tester. [Content removed]post if I've ever seen one.

Hijack offered three sentences simply asking where my supporters were, and I promptly showed him examples from reddit.

Gabe made an insightful post about why people on this forum are so resistant to the idea of a new server, and speculated about the chances of Kru ever actually doing it. I've addressed this, but all either of us can do is speculate when it comes to Wony. I truly believe it just comes down to it being easy to implement or not. If it's difficult at all to make a new server, it won't happen based on Wony's track record. If it's easy, I def see Wony doing it as a money-grab. Only a matter of time.
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Krmit
post Dec 5 2016, 02:54 PM
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To be honest i only played nexus for as long as we did because i didnt have a cable modem and with AOL dial up as a kid, it was the cheapest, easiest game to play with the lowest requirements.

Now i just play because i can wipe my ass with 10 dollars so a month of this game or 2 beers at the bar, ill take the game. (and the beers)
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Doctor
post Dec 5 2016, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 5 2016, 08:06 AM) *
1. Takes 3 hours to get to 99 instead of 3 weeks. If you don't see the difference and why that matters, your brain must be switched off.
2. Adventure/Glory/Legends doesn't even exist anymore.
3. Quests are broken because everyone just has everything. Need a bunch of WBs for Rogue Moon? Just ask around, people will give you them for free.
4. Blank slate. <--- Stop fixating on the retro part of a new server, because this point is massive for a new server's target market.
5. There is zero incentive to take up most crafting efforts. Starting a new warrior who's a gemcutter? Everyone's already GM+. Pursuing a craft feels hollow because your clanmate can just do it for you. There goes about 1/4 of the game.
6. Starting a new character and looking to hunt? Oh ya, no one is anywhere near your stats. How do you not understand how this is different than a new server?
7. As a result of 6, leeching is the only real way to progress which makes the game incredible dull. Leeching would go away overnight on a retro server, then eventually come back in a vastly diminished state since old school NTK didn't have all the extreme leeching opportunities it does now.

I just gave you 7 real, tangible examples of how the two servers would be different (and I just woke up!). I'm guessing you won't directly address any of them, just like you didn't address anything from my last post where I @Doctor'd you. When one person pulls quotes and directly addresses them in an argument and the other doesn't, it's generally a sign that the person pulling quotes cares more and has a stronger argument. It shows I'm actually thinking, while you're on autopilot, spewing nonsense. I mean, saying "There is nothing better about 'back then' than right now" is just blatantly wrong. At the very least, you're ignoring all the community/dreams/reddit posts over the years of people wishing Glory/Legends were a thing again. It's so easy to poke holes in your posts, yet so difficult for you to poke holes in mine. 90% of the replies in this thread amount to "I don't think that will work" with weak or zero logic backing it up. Once again, DM is the only person who even tried because he's one of the only people on these forums who can think critically.


1. Good.
2. So add another character slot or two to accounts and re-open them, they had existed well into the new client.
3. So make some new quests.
4. Game is a blank slate now.
5. So put more emphasis into crafting and create new items and recipes.
6. That's what happens to every MMO. WoW isn't creating a retro server either because most of their players are max level. How do you fix this? Make things more soloable and make long quest lines that give you experience well into marks.
7. Not true, and also leeching existed to a high degree before you even played.

Feel free to give me 7 more.


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Ace
post Dec 5 2016, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Dec 5 2016, 08:06 AM) *
3. Quests are broken because everyone just has everything. Need a bunch of WBs for Rogue Moon? Just ask around, people will give you them for free.


This may be generally true but I just came back to the game after a long hiatus and decided to do some sublime alliances. Finished all the bosses easy enough, but I've been trying to buy the keys for days and days and nobody has any. You need 160 boss drop items to complete a sublime alliance, and as you kill the bosses you probably collect about 60 of those which leaves you needing to buy 100 more, or kill a crap ton of bosses to get them all yourself. The pool of people selling mythic keys is nearly non-existent right now...


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halombobtk
post Dec 5 2016, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Dec 5 2016, 04:16 PM) *
1. Good.
2. So add another character slot or two to accounts and re-open them, they had existed well into the new client.
3. So make some new quests.
4. Game is a blank slate now.
5. So put more emphasis into crafting and create new items and recipes.
6. That's what happens to every MMO. WoW isn't creating a retro server either because most of their players are max level. How do you fix this? Make things more soloable and make long quest lines that give you experience well into marks.
7. Not true, and also leeching existed to a high degree before you even played.

Feel free to give me 7 more.

Keep in mind I made this list in response to you saying a new server wouldn't be different. You're actively contradicting that stance right now, so let me preface this with: get rekt, etc.

1. Not good, imo. Dopamine scheduling, bruh. It's one of the biggest factors in a game being fun or a game being boring, and a huge part of retention. Discounting its importance basically means you know nothing, John Snow.
2. You do realize this is Kru you're asking to do this, right?
3. Again, you're asking for Kru to add new quests instead of rehashing already made quests. Take a wild guess which is more likely.
4. What the actual [Content removed], mate? You not understanding what a blank slate is concerns me.
5. Your third request for new content from a company that hasn't put out good content in the better part of a decade. GLHF
6. Your fourth request for new content from Kru. I believe WoW hasn't done it because:
a ) Expansions are a reliable method for them to boost subscriptions and new content allows for movies, collectibles, HotS/Hearthstone sales, etc.
b ) Status quo is always favored in big companies. They'd have to lay off tons of people who are working on new content
c ) Despite falling from astronomical heights, the game is still massive
7. This being true or not depends on your definition of viable. If you were forced to roll a new character right now, how much fun do you think you'd have grinding 30+ hours to 99 without getting leeched, knowing that others are doing it in 3? I don't think a sane person would get much enjoyment out of that, so I wouldn't consider it viable. How many hunts (not leeches) do you plan on getting once you get to 99? Every post indicates that it's a barren wasteland until you get to Flower 3, at which point you're likely just getting leeched again. Leeching is a bigger part of the game than it's ever been in the history of NTK. You can't deny that because as gaps between players increase and player population (hunt availability) decreases, leeching has to increase by definition. As for leeching existing to a high degree before I played, what do you mean exactly? Before the Great Shift? Who cares? In Yuri 40 there just weren't many great leeching opportunities. Hunting was focused around Mythic and the caves all had reasonable limits. I'm not sure what you're on about.

Out of 7 points, 4 of your responses included having Kru simply add more content blink.gif. If you don't get why this is funny, you must be new here.
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halombobtk
post Dec 6 2016, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (Ace @ Dec 5 2016, 11:55 PM) *
This may be generally true but I just came back to the game after a long hiatus and decided to do some sublime alliances. Finished all the bosses easy enough, but I've been trying to buy the keys for days and days and nobody has any. You need 160 boss drop items to complete a sublime alliance, and as you kill the bosses you probably collect about 60 of those which leaves you needing to buy 100 more, or kill a crap ton of bosses to get them all yourself. The pool of people selling mythic keys is nearly non-existent right now...


This still falls in line with my statement of "Quests are broken because everyone already has everything" - sounds counter-intuitive, but let me explain.

When people generally have everything they need, market liquidity drops considerably. In a healthy economy, the price of Mythic keys would rise to a level where people felt incentivized to boss hunt. The low population, combined with a lot of apathetic players with millions of gold in the bank already, is a formula for market stagnation. People also might just feel burnt out on how tedious their own Sublimes were. That's a tonnnn of bosses to kill.

Of course, it's possible that you're just not offering enough. Everyone has a price! Best of luck - you'll get there eventually.
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Doctor
post Dec 6 2016, 03:39 AM
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You think that making a retro server would take LESS EFFORT than putting more content into the game.

I think we can be done with this now.


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KoLD
post Dec 6 2016, 04:49 AM
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Odd feeling when I agree with Doctor. tongue.gif

Seriously, Nexus now is so much better. Sure, I enjoyed the old graphics, in the same way I enjoy pulling my SNES out and playing Earthbound. However, the game has advanced a lot through the years. I know I wouldn't want to go back waiting for Horse 3 LR Or Ox because it was the only decent experience. tongue.gif
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halombobtk
post Dec 6 2016, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Dec 6 2016, 03:39 AM) *
You think that making a retro server would take LESS EFFORT than putting more content into the game.

Yes. Don't you have special insight into this? Please elaborate if so - that would be the easiest way to shut me up. Maybe DM can weigh in. Last I checked, copy+paste was a thing in computing. Also, the delete key is a thing. Dev presses delete until only pre-Vortex caves remain, delete overflow, delete Woodlands, delete Nagnang, delete Tangun, control+c, control+v, and voila! New, retro server. It's not like you're reinventing the wheel - the code is already there. I'm guessing it would take a single person one month to do this project once they understand how everything works. A year from now, the new devs Wony hired this year should be familiar enough to pull it off, no? Maybe tack on another month for Wony to set up CRM stuff, prep kruna shop, etc. The problem with asking for new content is that it's not easy to dream up new, solid content. It's far easier to reuse content that's already been built. No creativity necessary.
QUOTE
Odd feeling when I agree with Doctor. tongue.gif

Seriously, Nexus now is so much better. Sure, I enjoyed the old graphics, in the same way I enjoy pulling my SNES out and playing Earthbound. However, the game has advanced a lot through the years. I know I wouldn't want to go back waiting for Horse 3 LR Or Ox because it was the only decent experience. tongue.gif

Not calling for old graphics. I couldn't care less which graphics they use. The nice thing about a new server, is you wouldn't be stuck for nearly as long in Horse3 or Sheep3 because they could just copy/paste Vortex caves at that point. It would be a loooong time for that to even be an issue if you recall how slow pacing used to be. It took years to get to that point. I'm not sure people fully understand how long things would take, starting from scratch. There would be no clans, which is a massive gold sink and makes crafting take longer without warps/NPCs. The initial grind to 99 alone would take weeks, if not months. Selling exp at 99 would be meaningful again.
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Brant
post Dec 6 2016, 12:03 PM
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Songa
post Dec 6 2016, 12:36 PM
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Il san
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Pretty sure I've said this before but I remember when the game transferred to the new graphics we see now. There was an option in the loading screen to play the new or old graphics. The old graphics were horribly bugged and were eventually rid of. I might be wrong but I'm fairly certain that it was two different servers. What you're suggesting has already been tried. It didn't work. I obviously have no idea why it didn't work. I just know that we did have an old graphics server that was too buggy to bother keeping. A lot of players wanted it but it simply didn't work out.

Also, if this somehow was figured out and made to work, starting completely fresh would likely kill the other server. They have one now that they barely do anything for. Can't imagine how little they'd do with two.
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Xing-Yu Seong
post Dec 6 2016, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (Songa @ Dec 6 2016, 12:36 PM) *
Pretty sure I've said this before but I remember when the game transferred to the new graphics we see now. There was an option in the loading screen to play the new or old graphics. The old graphics were horribly bugged and were eventually rid of. I might be wrong but I'm fairly certain that it was two different servers.


Almost! As it was an option existed in the client, it was just a switch. The graphics were on an offset, and they had a fancy excel spreadsheet (SQL tables!) to say "when you select this, translate X tile to Y tile". Having done maps for some of the privates, I can tell you that the client contains every graphic current and old in it. Running two servers would mean that people on that server would be logging into a different resource. There would have been a separate login server, two Kugnaes, etc etc. That would have incredibly resource intensive, and knowing that they hosted on Windows 2003 servers for... forever, seems unlikely. smile.gif
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