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> New In-Game Guide, Trigger Warning! Opinions Ahead! (Image & Satire)
Xing-Yu Seong
post Oct 27 2016, 11:42 PM
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So, I was perusing the news site due to curiosity (again). I noticed a new report on this:



Now, being a 90% lurker, I have seen a lot of... 'theories' regarding every iota of KRU's business decisions; a constant state of conspiracy wheel of cheese gets spun, but sometimes... people are overwhelmed, aren't paying attention, or make a mistake the same way over and over again. (btw, our current GMs actually test, which is new and scary, I know! But trust me, it's good!)

I also know that everything seems so backwards now, and it's hard to believe... I mean, I've recently seen surprisingly savvy business discourse from a dude who got fat making YouTube videos and.. retired? I dunno. I've also seen an amazing amount of salt get poured out on people even wanting to try to give KRU the benefit of the doubt. I understand the doubt, but let's try to look at one of the biggest banes of existence that has ever existence(d)?

T A N G U N

There isn't a font scary enough on these forums to instill the emotional black hole that is TANGUN.
A place whose name is just an an acronm for "Those Annoying Newbies Give Us Nothing".



THE POINT IS that people were getting tired of Peasants. The constant "Me Korea! Itamz plz?" "Moonies?" "Love you long time for lvls!" The abuse of peasants was pretty hardcore man... they were running wild, and they were getting loose for every fella and gal that would as much give them a glance. We were at a complete dead stop, drowning in newbies who were begging us into poverty! Not registering after we mentored them, wasting our time and money and losing out on the Karma! Sucking everyone's ping response into an eternity on a server that couldn't even handle a day / night system without some breaking the game (we had super good GMs even then, yup!) AND after multiple attempts to purge the ranks of the useless peasants, we came up with a solution! Instead of relying on the 99-year-old Ninja Masters IronSpear and Jadewhatever, we decided to make sure they understood the god-damn rules!


Judges started just jailing them! That's right!
You just curse you gorram newbie?! TO THE ROCK!
Are you blocking a doorway? TO THE ROCK!
Steal my kill will you?! TO THE ROCK!
Talking to me is harrassment! ROCK!
THIEF! ROCK!
YOU! ROCK!
ROCK ROCK!

And finally, when the jails that could never be filled just tired out the judges, we got a partition from them! YEAH!
Know what we did?!
WHAT WE THE PLAYERS DEMANDED?!
NO ONE KNOWS CAUSE NO ONE WAS ASKED!
(but we got Tangun...)

Yeah! We showed them! The gods granted us a partition from those disgusting creatures we used to be, and allowed our stupid elitist culture to thrive and cannibalize itself into a boring cliche snitch-fest filled with sucking up and burning out. Good job!

And what happened after all the judges had no noobs to punish anymore? WHY instead of reducing their ranks, they grew! AND GREW! Soon there were many judges, and at any time someone's feelings got hurt, Kim-Jong Undesirable got jailed for whatever. I mean, these laws just got made up to protect us from the scourge of newbs, and now it was used against us?! NO WAY. DAMN. HOW DID WE NOT SEE THAT COMING?

.... Anyway, Tangun is awful. Hopefully, this Guide can be a good replacement for it, and allow people to interact with people again. That'd be cool.
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halombobtk
post Oct 28 2016, 09:22 AM
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What a ride laugh.gif A+ post imo.

I used to love random peasants! They were hilarious, and a fun part of the game to me.
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Nagnag
post Oct 31 2016, 11:46 AM
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Good stuff Xing-Yu Seong - haha. I am pretty much just a lurker these days, too. That being said… as a long time ex-staffer of NA, and the designer/coder of the current Nexus Atlas layout… I thought it might be worth giving my two cents on the new In-Game Guide in Nexus, specifically Vini's post about "copyrighted information" being pulled from Nexus Atlas and used on the in-game guide.

Nexus Atlas, since the days of TSWulf, was meant to dedicate itself to helping the Nexus Community with nothing in return. Yes, this includes copying and pasting information to friends, for posts in-game, etc. In fact, it was TS who first discovered a way to reverse engineer old map files into editable files in the old map maker. Thus, "Nexus Atlas" was born.

These maps were never removed, even though they were "copyrighted". They weren't removed, and recreated from scratch, manually with screenshot after screenshot, stiched together. Granted… many maps were made this way, but not most. This isn't even my primary point, but it's worth mentioning, given the "copyright" comment…

Nexus Atlas is an accumulation of information about NexusTK… all of its information, in its very nature, is copyrighted. Not by NA, not even by KRU many times. But by the countless hours of players who dedicate their real life hours to playing role playing characters in either official or unofficial events – both of which have been reported on NA, and are saved in our archives of information, for all of the users to see.

The beauty, to me, of Nexus, is in its very name. Nexus. A series of connections. Not a series of copyrighted thought, citing exact sources. This doesn't mean be a jerk and steal stuff. Obviously creativity and originality should be credited when possible… that's just plain-ol-respectful.

But when I saw Vini telling people to not take from Nexus Atlas for the in-game Wiki, I thought… why?

Why can't we allow people to copy-paste, regardless of if they "link back" or "credit" NA? Are we that proud? Does it matter THAT much? Are we afraid NexusTK's in-game wiki is going to bring less people to NexusAtlas.com? (because… spoiler alert: it will).

Is that a bad thing? (No.) — is it OK that we have a helpful guide that people can access easily? (that's the goal of NA right?)

Or is it that Nexon and KRU alike haven't assisted NA AT ALL with our information gathering, with our event holding, with our news reporting, and so on… and so forth…?

It's no secret Archons are ran by players who are approached by the company and asked to volunteer their time and effort to helping make the community a better place. I'm not here to reveal anything, by any means, but there's this huge misconception that NA is somehow even the slightest bit assisted. IF, for instance, a staffer is an Elder of a subpath, or Primogen of a Clan, or Carny/Elixer host, or any other "position"… and is somehow privy to information, or able to share things in a detailed way as news on Nexus Atlas, from their unique perspective, then great!

This doesn't make it *their* content… this doesn't mean *they* need credit. It means you've dedicated your personal insight to helping make the Nexus Community a better place. And the same exact thing goes for if said person is in a position of *power* (ie: Archon).

So to me, asking people to stop copying & pasting from NA into Nexus' in-game help guide is the epitome of contradiction, as the info was TAKEN from TK… so back into the game, it should go.

This isn't a blast against NA, Vini, KRU, anyone. This is my personal opinion, of years and years of watching… I'm a huge TK fanboy (obviously), so when I saw this post… I wanted to give my two cents… as I do not feel anyone's voice is louder than anyone else's… and we all have a say in this sort of thing. I say copy & paste away. At the end of the day, it's the players of Nexus, and their enjoyment of the game, that matters. Not our pride.


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darkmaverick
post Oct 31 2016, 12:34 PM
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While your post was snarky, Tangun was really about the abusive peasants, which is partly why it was overdone. I never thought abusive peasants was that critical of an issue myself and could have been addressed in other ways.

I do think some kind of streamlined tutorial was needed for NexusTK, but Tangun went a little overboard with it. It's not the reason the game started going downhill but it contributed to the decline of the influx of new players.

Vini is not entirely wrong in his view that NA content shouldn't just be copy pasted onto another website without permission from NA. To argue the information has no owner is just factually incorrect, and NA has some rights to information that was created and posted for it. Information isn't copyright-able, but the specific expression of information is. The information on NA falls under copyright protection by virtue of the fact people created information to post on it, and I suspect there is some kind of agreement contributors make that they give NA some rights to the content they post here, similar to the shrink wrap agreement we all agree to when we register on this forum. At the bare minimum there is at least a compelling argument to be made that the intent of contributors is to give copyright ownership of their submissions to NexusAtlas given they submit knowing the site footer says all portions of the site are copyrighted by NA.

As a similar example, if I write a guide to some game like Castlevania and upload it to GameFAQs that doesn't give Konami permission to copy my guide ad verbatim and post it to their website. This same scenario applies to NexusTK and KRU. The specific expression of information is copyright-able, even if it's about something else that is copyrightable. As the copyright holder I have the right to determine who has a license to display and reproduce it.

The semantical argument about the spirit of community and whatnot isn't based on facts surrounding copyright law. It's not rational to want new interpretations of copyright law just to justify your opinion on a certain matter like this.

The question of KRU's ownership of NexusTK and its relation to guides made by third parties isn't so much as a copyright issue, but rather a licensing issue. Do people need a license in order to create a guide, which is basically a derivative work? The answer is no, firstly because guides are an example of acceptable fair usage per Section 107 of the Copyright Act and secondly because KRU does not make any money from licensing strategy guides based on NexusTK. The only way in which KRU could successfully demonstrate damages due to a non-licensed derivative work that normally falls within fair use parameters is if this usage deprived them of revenue and without having previously licensed a strategy guide they can't even begin to make such an argument.

Now, Vini as admin could choose to allow the info to be posted into this wiki guide thing, but doing so is against the interests of Nexus Atlas. The site's primary value is as a source of this information. It'd be like if Encyclopedia Britannica intentionally allowed all their information to be posted ad verbatim to Wikipedia.

Normally this issue would have some financial interest against the information being freely posted elsewhere, but since NA people have always refused to put ads on the site and instead run it like martyrs, I think it is likely that it's really just the fiefdom trespassing that Vini is upset about. Being involved with NA awards a social status, which is based on the popularity and usefulness of the site to the playerbase. If the value is diminished due to this new competitor then that social status is now being threatened. The social status of being a NA contributor is not without merit (it is awarded because NA is useful to the community) but this status only remains so long as the site is providing the same value.

In any case the decision to not run ads on NexusAtlas gives NA few legal options to enforce its copyright against KRU just copying everything to their wiki. Similar to how not licensing strategy guides makes it pretty much impossible for KRU to make a compelling argument that it loses money from non-licensed strategy guides, Nexus Atlas has a difficult time demonstrating how it is damaged from theft of its copyrighted material because it produces no revenue from the material. The legal system is built to benefit capitalism; if you adopt socialist policies it's difficult to use the law to assist you in civil matters. ( There's a few notable examples of socialist minded people getting screwed by the system; Google 'Carol Highsmith Vs. Getty Images' for a recent one).

tl:dr

1. NexusAtlas has the right to restrict usage of its copyrighted works.

2. NexusAtlas will probably never be able to enforce these restrictions because they can't prove any financial damages since they don't make money from the copyrighted work and KRU isn't making a profit from their wiki guide either.

3. Asking people to be nice and respectful is about all NexusAtlas can do. We all know how well that is going to turn out.

QUOTE
surprisingly savvy business discourse from a dude who got fat making YouTube videos and.. retired? I dunno.


I take it this is aimed at me.

You've confused founding and selling a YouTube MCN with just "making videos". Sure, I've made videos but that is like saying Walt Disney just made theatrical cartoon shorts and ignoring that's not really how his company made its money (merchandising licensing is what built the Walt Disney Company).

The "savvy business discourse" you see from me comes from the experience of making savvy business decisions. Not really critical to the discussion but just wanted to clear that up.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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Krmit
post Oct 31 2016, 03:19 PM
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What kru should do is thank NA supporters/programmers/and developers personally and give them credit for a job well done and link the site in game as an official support page.

Not try to just develop an in game wiki. If the game (in game) supported the outside site, it would be very helpful. More time was put in here than what kru would be able to do in 100 lifetimes on their own.

Good work NA staff.
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Nagnag
post Oct 31 2016, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Krmit @ Oct 31 2016, 08:19 PM) *
What kru should do is thank NA supporters/programmers/and developers personally and give them credit for a job well done and link the site in game as an official support page.

Not try to just develop an in game wiki. If the game (in game) supported the outside site, it would be very helpful. More time was put in here than what kru would be able to do in 100 lifetimes on their own.

Good work NA staff.


My thoughts exactly Krmit. Thank you smile.gif

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Oct 31 2016, 08:19 PM) *
Information isn't copyright-able, but the specific expression of information is.


Very good point — and I agree 100%. I'm not on Nexus currently to double check, so I can't confirm or disprove if anyone is actually ripping copy verbatim. But I would say that NexusAtlas is the one source that stayed with TK while even KRU themselves simply left the servers running, with the occasional Holidays & Lost Mines floppy disk they inserted every once in a while to repeat "classic" events.

It's good – I mean, really good – to see KRU taking charge and making changes in the game. I can only imagine it's a little too late, considering the average # of people online has dropped significantly month by month. So I guess my only beef is how strongly it's put out there to not take information. It feels like if a library put a sign outside of the door and said "Don't take any information you find in here and share it" – isn't it a valuable source? Again, I agree verbatim ripping… but if NA has all quests, events, stats, etc… why not use it as a source?

Being someone who has contributed quite a bit to NA, in terms of news reporting, stats, quests, events, walkthroughs, graphics, etc… I couldn't care less if I get cited. It would help for moments like these (when I'm making a point about contributing, because how else can I prove it…?) but it wasn't my information to "copyright" in the first place.

So, yea, a guide is definitely copyrighted, in terms of its creative, its structure, its wording. But the information therein is owned by Konami, or whomever - in this case, KRU. And really not even them, Nexon - who they lease licenses from.


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darkmaverick
post Oct 31 2016, 03:54 PM
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This is one of the problems with wikis. Rather than curate their own information, KRU opted for the lazy approach of having players make the contributions to their guide. Unfortunately players are just as lazy as the GMs are, so they opt to just copy and paste information rather than make the effort of producing their own accounts.

The other problem with a wiki approach is that it's a free for all model. It's impossible to establish reliability if you don't know who the author is and cannot verify their credentials. The information on NA is viewed as credible because players know who is responsible for recording it and trust these people to make accurate reports, because if they don't they lose positive reputation within the community. With a wiki approach, the credibility of KRU is inherited by the anonymous contributors which means dubious information can appear credible to those who don't know any better. It's not the way I would have done a newbie guide and I suspect a lot of misinformation is going to work its way into it which will create a negative perception of KRU in new players -- not that it needs any help in this.

Anyway, I think it would have done the GMs some good to create their own guide, because then it would have forced them to actually learn how the game works and benefited future design of content.


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Nagnag
post Oct 31 2016, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE
I think it would have done the GMs some good to create their own guide, because then it would have forced them to actually learn how the game works and benefited future design of content.

Bwahahah – well said… and agree. While they have made leaps and bounds in terms of coming back and paying attention to the game (I'm guessing… new management?) they still have a ways to go. It's funny, I've stumbled upon a few "Alternate Nexus Realities" who are ran by those who know the culture and mechanics of the game - inside and out - better than the GMs of TK do.

For as long as Nexus Atlas has been around… I'm extremely surprised KRU wouldn't have contacted us by now to make some sort of deal. Nothing beneficial financially or even in-game… just in terms of "Hey we're thinking about having an in-game Wiki… would you like to help us populate it?" or even better… "You've been the backbone of information providing for our citizens for a long, long time… mind if we just throw your site in an iframe?"


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halombobtk
post Nov 1 2016, 08:38 AM
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Huge fan btw Nagnag. It's weird how just seeing your name, along with TSWulf, hit me right in the feels. It used to bring me such joy seeing new posts on NA.
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SilentS
post Nov 1 2016, 05:13 PM
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This in-game wiki concept was around at least since Mug. He had some idea for it but "no time to continue it". He talked about it a little before he left. How far it got or if it even got started, who knows. But oh well....

As for this whole "copyright" crap... The info and details themselves are what Kru themselves created, with the player base (not just NA) putting it into an easy to use format (the guide DM talked about). If you want to nitpick, some of the info can be written by hand by anybody and it could still be claimed it was copied from NA because of the fact it would be almost identical. Cave levels and stats, quests, commands. Maps, graphics, images... They all belong to Kru (who lease it from Nexon, the creators), even if a player pieced them together. There were times that even NA would simply copy and paste stuff that somebody else had written in game and posted it on their site (walk throughs for example on permanent quests). You cannot tell me that they can even attempt to copyright that after people forgot who originally wrote them. It is a mess if you start going about it in that manner. Also nobody is taking any credit for anything by adding it to the wiki. All it states is who created the page last edited it. Nothing about edits in between. Even for the few edits I have done, they were all by memory. Even though those bits are on NA, does that mean I copied it?

While I may agree with much of what has been said on this thread, it is still overboard and overbearing to deny the info being transferred over. It isn't like every detail is going to be posted there. It is meant to be a simple in-game help guide that contains basic information on how to play, with some history background. How far it will actually go eventually? Who knows at this point, but I doubt it would "steal traffic" from here.


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Nagnag
post Nov 2 2016, 11:37 AM
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QUOTE
There were times that even NA would simply copy and paste stuff that somebody else had written in game and posted it on their site (walk throughs for example on permanent quests). You cannot tell me that they can even attempt to copyright that after people forgot who originally wrote them. It is a mess if you start going about it in that manner.


Well said SilentS - my thoughts exactly. There are only so many different ways you can spell out how to do a quest, or list stats to an item. NA doesn't list credit to the person who implemented it on their site for every-single-item/quest/whatever…


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Musoyan
post Nov 3 2016, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE (Nagnag @ Nov 2 2016, 12:37 PM) *
NA doesn't list credit to the person who implemented it on their site for every-single-item/quest/whatever…


Well, AllyGator did like 95% of it so.. her.
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Nagnag
post Nov 3 2016, 10:49 AM
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QUOTE
Well, AllyGator did like 95% of it so.. her.

As AllyGator's old friend, I respectfully have to disagree to "95%" — she most definitely did a lot, but that's just it… it's hard to say exactly what should be attributed to whom and when.

The point of Nexus Atlas isn't to attribute credit every single time. The point is to provide information to the community as a whole. Therefore, being upset about the information being shared via the in-game Wiki seems counter-intuitive to NA's mission. If our mission is to ensure credit is given to every single bit of information, then all information would be attributed as such - and maybe even in a different way, such as via filterable tags on news items, so we can see who the author is and what the post's subject/category. But given the fact that NA is stuck on an extremely old version of Coranto, versus - say, an updated version of WordPress - the versatility of capability is nil.


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Vini
post Nov 15 2016, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Oct 31 2016, 10:34 AM) *
Now, Vini as admin could choose to allow the info to be posted into this wiki guide thing, but doing so is against the interests of Nexus Atlas. The site's primary value is as a source of this information. It'd be like if Encyclopedia Britannica intentionally allowed all their information to be posted ad verbatim to Wikipedia.


QUOTE (Nagnag @ Oct 31 2016, 09:46 AM) *
But when I saw Vini telling people to not take from Nexus Atlas for the in-game Wiki, I thought… why?

Why can't we allow people to copy-paste, regardless of if they "link back" or "credit" NA? Are we that proud? Does it matter THAT much? Are we afraid NexusTK's in-game wiki is going to bring less people to NexusAtlas.com? (because… spoiler alert: it will).

Is that a bad thing? (No.) — is it OK that we have a helpful guide that people can access easily? (that's the goal of NA right?)


Copying the content from Nexus Atlas into the Wiki isn't against the interests of Nexus Atlas. The only interest of Nexus Atlas is to help the Nexus Players and having all of the Nexus information, organized in a same webpage is helpful to new and old players, therefore importing NA stuff to Wiki is helpful to people.

The only issue is that NexusTK Guide registers the author of the texts. Therefore, KRU created a "NexusAtlas" login just for the guide (Doesn't work in-game) which allows us to copy our content into the guide and properly give the credit to the website.

I'm not trying to protect myself or anything. I simply want to give credit those who dedicated their times to help Nexus community with accessible free information over the past 13-16 years through Nexus Atlas and Nexus Network. We had dozens of amazing people who volunteered to help the project, while hundreds who also helped as readers and feeding info.

But the time of fanpages created and maintained by a limited number of players is old. Now most of the online games rely on Fandom Wikia pages, created by a vast number of people, each contributing a bit. This is what Nexus TK Guide will be about. It will honor the past, but open doors for endless possibilities and much more collaborative work. Nexus Atlas welcomes the Wiki with arms wide open, as a partner and perhaps someday even as a replacement in couple years.

The purpose of the post is to alert people to not post stuff from NA into to the Wiki taking credit for other people's work. We'll copy our content into the Wiki and after that, feel free to update anything you find need to. What we would love to see if some of those helpful people also working into creating new guides. Example: creating a guide of all the orbs and their effects. This would be extremely helpful and something NA doesn't have yet.


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