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> NexusTK Needs a New Server
halombobtk
post Sep 9 2016, 10:30 AM
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To preface, in waiting >2 weeks for my account to be approved, I took the opportunity to read every Community post from the last ~5 years to prep for this. Only OhHowSoCute seemed to hit on this topic, though many people have obviously contributed to the discussion about what they like and don't like about the game, and what needs to change. This summer, it has become extremely obvious that Wony is not nearly as good at game design as the pioneers of NexusTK (I've been told Orb and Grin are mostly responsible for the design in the early days, but maybe DM can correct me). Laughably bad changes like overflow, combined with simple aging and neglect have made the game unplayable for many former and new players. A new server is the simplest path to success for Kru.

In short, the code that made this game special is already there. One would simply need to hit the delete key enough times to remove everything from Vortex onward (including Tangun obv). Do it in winter '16 or '17 when the Northern Hemisphere is indoors, and couple it with a marketing push on Steam. The hype from former players alone would be more than enough to pay the bills, assuming the license Kru just renewed covers multiple instances of the game. Even if it doesn't, I'm sure Wony knows exactly what kind of numbers he'd need to make this work. The vast majority of former players are in their late 20s and early 30s, with plenty of disposable income to dump on mounts, crafting bags, etc. I know they'd get ~$50/month out of me for at least the first year, assuming they make all the required changes and don't ruin this opportunity.

Since I missed the boat on the "what makes NexusTK good/bad" thread, I'll just share my thoughts here since these are also reasons why a new server is needed:

1. NexusTK's biggest asset by far was its pacing. As mentioned, it's been completely bastardized to the point where if you die as a fresh 99er before selling exp, you'd simply chuckle at the thought of wasting one hour of gameplay. The dopamine boost from finally hitting 99 and getting to sell was MASSIVE, and instantly got players hooked. Scheduling dopamine release properly is essential to MMOs, and NexusTK's founders got it almost perfect. You could argue there are a couple stretches from 1-99 that went a little too long without rewarding the player somehow, but these would be comically easy to fix (e.g. increase dmg on spear trap and change berserk to lvl 75 to make the climb from Ox1-Snake1 a little more fun). As OhHowSoCute mentioned, it should take weeks to get to 99.

2. This is sort of a 1b, but time-gating and Ee Culture, to me, were huge strengths for pacing. It felt like you really achieved something when hitting those marks. Encouraging your player base to try something new like poetry and writing is part of what made this game special. More importantly, requiring players to be decent to each other for >1 year in order to get Sam was simply genius. DM will tell you that it's what prevented the game from being more popular, which is certainly valid, but I will tell you that it's what prevented the game from being as toxic as every other game out there. Btw, it's pretty obvious from reading through thousands of words from DM on these boards that he's super duper toxic at times, so no wonder he had issues with the justice system. (I would argue though that he's a very intelligent dude, and 80% of his posts are actually really solid - you guys are too hard on him.) I can't remember how long sage used to be, and I know they cut it in half, but having to wait 1 year without getting jailed feels about right for Sam. It's a substantial time investment, but not unbearably long.

3. Paths were reasonably balanced, and hunting was fun despite its relative simplicity and hand-breaking mechanics. Again, NexusTK's founders really crushed it here pre-Sa San. Each of the four paths gave you some incentive to play them. Warriors generally out-PVE'd rogues, but not so much that no one would take a Rogue, and Rogues were superior in PVP. Mages had to do the most work, but they were basically required for hunts and PVP gods (having one class that rewards hand-breaking with PVP prowess is not a bad thing imo). Poets were in the same boat as Mages, though as a fresh 99er with WoL and restore, hunting was actually pretty easy on your hands for long stretches. Getting rid of overflow would work wonders for just about every class. Most of the fun in NexusTK's PVE was derived from swing dmg + setting. It's what made the game unique and gave Mages a chance to vastly increase the group's experience based on how skilled they were. Neglect and dumb game design like overflow has ruined hunting. A new server would instantly fix all of that.

4. Meaningful prizes and fun PVP that made you want to make a new character to max Glory/Legends/Ancients.

I could go on about why I poured thousands of hours into this game pre-2006, but I want to keep this list somewhat focused for now. Slow progression and the need for group hunting are what really made this game great. I keep seeing ideas thrown around to make soloing viable for every path, but none of those people realize how boring that would be. Part of the dopamine boost schedule was simply finding a hunt, and socializing should always be a priority in MMOs. For this same reason, Kru should never consider instancing caves, even if players clamor for it on a new server. Getting to hunt in that one great room every now and then is yet another source of dopamine.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on a new server over the weekend (especially DM/Conro). I've really given this a lot of thought over the past couple months and have tried to be hyper-aware of nostalgia glasses. When I brought this up on in-game Community, Wony actually said that a new server is an interesting idea, so there is a nonzero chance of it happening if we get enough support. Thanks all, and have a nice weekend!
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darkmaverick
post Sep 9 2016, 10:57 AM
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While I think a second server where people can choose to start over from scratch with a new ruleset (like no aethers or something) would be a good idea to breath some life into the game, I don't think that in itself will be enough.

By modern MMO standards levels 1-99 are incredibly boring. NexusTK has to compete against games like WoW, Maplestory, FFXIV, Eve Online, Tree of Savior, Dungeon Fighter Online, etc. etc.

Also, when the time limits on Sage were first implemented and then tied to Sam san, it wasn't as significant a deal as it is now because you normally would not have Sam san stats within a year of playing the game. It mostly impacted players who were jailed. It is different now because Sam san stats can be obtained in a matter of months.

It is important to remember that Sage originally had no time gate; there was a sage you could purchase at level 99, and another Sage you could purchase at il san and ee san which had lower aethers. That was how Sage originally worked until the complex system was created originally to reduce the amount of people who had Sage by removing it if you were jailed for anything. The new system was implemented because people were complaining about Sage spam. The solution that Eldridge came up with was spiteful, as many of his solutions to player complaints often were. What he should have done is added a "looking for group" function and added an auction house system, because these two features would have significantly reduced the need for people to Sage repeatedly to look for hunts or sell their items. Instead his mind seemed to go toward what would cause the most amount of frustration for players.

Anyway, even without the Sage restriction on obtaining Sam san you still have the problem of NexusTK's gameplay simply not being competitive in the market. Even 99+ is not very competitive. The gameplay largely consists of camping a room and continually killing enemies that respawn on a timer. There's no encounter mechanics like you'd see in other MMO produced in the past two decades. There is a severe lack of depth to NexusTK's combat system when it is compared to other MMOs these days and it's a core reason why the game is not very competitive in the market.

I also think your interpretation of what a "toxic player" is may not be in line with what the term generally means; toxic players are those find pleasure in ruining the game experience for other players. It's not toxic to passionately disagree with people.

My opinion is that the way the Archon and justice system operate makes NexusTK one of the most toxic MMOs out there. In the vast majority of MMOs other players have to resort to playing the game in unintended ways and exploiting holes in the game's logic in order to troll. In NexusTK the developer has given the trolls a tool like Jail and built an entire system of penalties that encourages players to permanently create loss of items, gold and clan membership status on another person's character. It is only because these trolls have a stamp of approval from the developer do people not immediately recognize the players for what they are.

PS: Not that it really matters much in addressing today's issues but in an effort to remove some rose colored glasses of nostalgia you may have, it's important to remember exactly how balance issues with Warriors and Rogues came about. Originally aethers as they exist now were not in the initial release. There were very few spells with any aethers, and if they had one it was short. Berserk and DA were balanced in the sense that Berserk did not rely on Mana no consume it all; it was a superior spell in that sense because it could be repeatedly used. Whirlwind was used very rarely due to its risk. It was better to just spam Berserk, which DA could not do. Rage and Cunning did not exist either. The initial game was just a translated version of Baram's initial build.

It's only after aethers were added that Rogues ended up becoming superior in PvE than Warriors. The only exceptions were CRs and Do because of their unique attack multipliers. CalmWind and Mountie had such high stats not because Chonguns and Barbarians were the most optimal hunting paths but because most players didn't spend 8+ hours hunting everyday like they did. Once split stat entrances were removed from caves and allowed Rage5 to be used in Horse2 and Rage6 to be used in Sheep2 the power paradigm of the game shifted dramatically because players gained experience much faster than they did before, and then players began complaining about the reset timers being too long and so they were reduced so people could clear faster with Rage 5/ 6.

Thus Chonguns and Barbarians and non-Baekho Rogues had an extremely difficult time finding a hunt due to the gross power that Baekhos, Chung Ryongs and Do had. While Baekhos were certainly was not as powerful as R6 CRs they were very effective in a duo as players like Conro demonstrated for years, and once a Rogue reached a level where they could one-shot with DA or LS they were far more powerful than a similar statted non-CR Warrior -- including Do. On the whole the addition of polearms benefited Rogues more than it did Warriors, and it's only the ridiculous power of Rage 5 and 6 that made people think otherwise. Polearms could be used by even subpath Rogues more effectively than they could be used by subpath Warriors (with the exception of Do until they chose to self-nerf themselves by removing Blend's multiplier). This remained the case until overflow and subpath rages were added which has created the current dynamic.

Basically, since aethers and subpaths were added to the game there really has never been a moment that Rogues and Warriors were well balanced. My belief has always been that a core problem is that the game does not have a tank class and both Rogues and Warriors are DPS classes, and it's very difficult to perfectly balance DPS classes when their core functions are so different. Giving Rogues equal PvE damage output to Warriors when Rogues are also superior in soloing bosses and PvP to Warriors creates a problem there. Because this has never been addressed the game continues to have issues and I think only a complete re-design of the game mechanics can truly address the gap.

My thoughts on Overflow is that it is actually a neat mechanic which adds some depth to Warrior gameplay beyond just holding down spacebar and it would be better to just implement more unique mechanics like it rather than remove interesting mechanics.


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halombobtk
post Sep 9 2016, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 11:57 AM) *
While I think a second server where people can choose to start over from scratch with a new ruleset (like no aethers or something) would be a good idea to breath some life into the game, I don't think that in itself will be enough.

By modern MMO standards levels 1-99 are incredibly boring. NexusTK has to compete against games like WoW, Maplestory, FFXIV, Eve Online, Tree of Savior, Dungeon Fighter Online, etc. etc.

Right away, it appears we have different goals. I want to experience the same game I played in high school with 500-2k players. You want to create a NexusTK utopia. Let's both agree that Wony doesn't have the resources to make a game on par with modern MMOs, and be realistic here. Any well-implemented, new features are an absolute pipe dream, as evidenced by Wony's grand reveal this summer of a daily coin mechanic. Like, he actually did that. Let that sink in for a bit before you continue reading. I want us to stay focused on something tangible.
QUOTE
Also, when the time limits on Sage were first implemented and then tied to Sam san, it wasn't as significant a deal as it is now because you normally would not have Sam san stats within a year of playing the game. It mostly impacted players who were jailed. It is different now because Sam san stats can be obtained in a matter of months.

It is important to remember that Sage originally had no time gate; there was a sage you could purchase at level 99, and another Sage you could purchase at il san and ee san which had lower aethers. That was how Sage originally worked until the complex system was created originally to reduce the amount of people who had Sage by removing it if you were jailed for anything. The new system was implemented because people were complaining about Sage spam. The solution that Eldridge came up with was spiteful, as many of his solutions to player complaints often were. What he should have done is added a "looking for group" function and added an auction house system, because these two features would have significantly reduced the need for people to Sage repeatedly to look for hunts or sell their items. Instead his mind seemed to go toward what would cause the most amount of frustration for players.

You really are an emotional guy. It's hard to take you seriously when you have such deep-seated hatred for certain people in the Nexus community. It discredits every point you make about them, which is a bummer because you normally have the ability to make some great points. Eldridge's sage solution had two absurdly powerful pros that you're choosing to ignore:

1. It forced people to be nice to each other in order to enjoy the game and progress. More sages = more trading + more hunts + more fun

2. Saging is an important part of the dopamine release schedule. Time-gating communication in a game that requires cooperation for progression is actually a good thing. It rewards people for sticking around and gives them something to look forward to every three months.
QUOTE
Anyway, even without the Sage restriction on obtaining Sam san you still have the problem of NexusTK's gameplay simply not being competitive in the market. Even 99+ is not very competitive. The gameplay largely consists of camping a room and continually killing enemies that respawn on a timer. There's no encounter mechanics like you'd see in other MMO produced in the past two decades. There is a severe lack of depth to NexusTK's combat system when it is compared to other MMOs these days and it's a core reason why the game is not very competitive in the market.

Again, not trying to make NexusTK compete with modern MMOs. I can't be alone in feeling that simple mechanics are a good thing. There's a market segment for everything. Being able to turn my brain off and grind while listening to audiobooks, podcasts, etc. is something I value pretty highly in a game now. I agree with one of your posts that some bosses should be more challenging, but outside of that, making full PA sets as a mage is fun enough for me, and surely many others. It takes months, if not years, for most new players to master and used to have a huge effect on exp production. Keeping warriors alive is also no small task for poets as AC rage penalties skyrocket. There was plenty of challenge in the early '00s, and not all of it came from us being teenagers.
QUOTE
I also think your interpretation of what a "toxic player" is may not be in line with what the term generally means; toxic players are those find pleasure in ruining the game experience for other players. It's not toxic to passionately disagree with people.

This reveals so much about you, but it's nothing I couldn't glean from all your past posts. You really struggle with introspection, and will do anything to paint yourself the hero. Perfect example here of you trying to lawyer the definition of toxic. You sound like Bill Clinton in court right now.
QUOTE
My opinion is that the way the Archon and justice system operate makes NexusTK one of the most toxic MMOs out there. In the vast majority of MMOs other players have to resort to playing the game in unintended ways and exploiting holes in the game's logic in order to troll. In NexusTK the developer has given the trolls a tool like Jail and built an entire system of penalties that encourages players to permanently create loss of items, gold and clan membership status on another person's character. It is only because these trolls have a stamp of approval from the developer do people not immediately recognize the players for what they are.

First things first, you sound so delusional/tinfoily with that last sentence. How is it that I played the game for thousands of hours and didn't have a single negative encounter? Please address this. How could that be possible if the game was so toxic/corrupt? I was never harassed, jailed, banned from carnage/fh/lix/bl, or in any altercation whatsoever. I had no friends as archons or judges, so I def wasn't getting special treatment. Either I'm a Jesus-level saint or you're getting emotional again and overblowing this. You generally reap what you sow in NexusTK. In every other modern game, you will get yelled at by randoms 24/7 even if you're cordial. In NexusTK, they incentivize people not to do that, and it works. You really just don't want to face the facts that you're abrasive and rude in about 20% of your online interactions. Probably a nice bloke irl, but you really seem to struggle with bottling up stress on your bad days. NexusTK's zero-tolerance policy definitely encouraged me to be a nicer person online. It's so easy to get into it with people from behind a monitor when you're having a bad day.

QUOTE
PS: Not that it really matters much in addressing today's issues but in an effort to remove some rose colored glasses of nostalgia you may have, it's important to remember exactly how balance issues with Warriors and Rogues came about. Originally aethers as they exist now were not in the initial release. There were very few spells with any aethers, and if they had one it was short. Berserk and DA were balanced in the sense that Berserk did not rely on Mana no consume it all; it was a superior spell in that sense because it could be repeatedly used. Whirlwind was used very rarely due to its risk. It was better to just spam Berserk, which DA could not do. Rage and Cunning did not exist either. The initial game was just a translated version of Baram's initial build.

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant, as it's not how I remembered the game at all. I didn't think I needed to clarify this, but it should be fairly obvious that NexusTK's glory days were between '03-'06, no?
QUOTE
It's only after aethers were added that Rogues ended up becoming superior in PvE than Warriors. The only exceptions were CRs and Do because of their unique attack multipliers.

To be clear, the "only exceptions" were basically the entire warrior path? Chonnys and Barbs represented 1/15th of the warrior population. When I played, both CRs and Baekhos had no problem finding hunts. This was fine to me since subpaths had other non-PVE advantages and were largely meant for RP anyway.
QUOTE
While Baekhos were certainly was not as powerful as R6 CRs they were very effective in a duo as players like Conro demonstrated for years, and once a Rogue reached a level where they could one-shot with DA or LS they were far more powerful than a similar statted non-CR Warrior -- including Do. This remained the case until overflow and subpath rages were added.


I omitted most of your history lesson, partly because I don't really care about your inevitable Chongun whining. It affected such a tiny portion of the player base, plus, ya know, you could've just chosen CR like everyone else. About rogues being "far more powerful," you're now talking about a phase of the game's history where neglect really started to set in. I hunted with Conro in Vortex pre-Sa a bit. If a new server is done right, we won't hit that territory for quite some time, and Wony might actually be around to plan for it. All it takes is a well-crafted item to make warrior swing dmg relevant. Balancing two fighter paths isn't nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be. The game mechanics are so simplistic. Increase/decrease swing dmg, increase/decrease vita dmg. Lengthen/reduce aethers. When there are only three levers to pull, it's super easy to balance. There just happened to be a 10 year period with no one capable manning the levers.
QUOTE
Basically, since aethers and subpaths were added to the game there really has never been a moment that Rogues and Warriors were well balanced. My belief has always been that a core problem is that the game does not have a tank class and both Rogues and Warriors are DPS classes, and it's very difficult to perfectly balance DPS classes when their core functions are so different. Giving Rogues equal PvE damage output to Warriors when Rogues are also superior in soloing bosses and PvP to Warriors creates a problem there. Because this has never been addressed the game continues to have issues and I think only a complete re-design of the game mechanics can truly address the gap.

For almost the entirety of my time playing NexusTK, warriors and rogues were interchangeable in hunting groups. They don't have to be perfectly balanced to make both paths fun. Again, you have a tendency to blow things out of proportion. A complete re-design of game mechanics is so obviously not needed. As smart as you are, it's baffling that you can't see how over-dramatic that statement is.
QUOTE
My thoughts on Overflow is that it is actually a neat mechanic which adds some depth to Warrior gameplay beyond just holding down spacebar and it would be better to just implement more unique mechanics like it rather than remove interesting mechanics.

It makes no sense from an RP standpoint and simply replaces one "neat mechanic" with another. It was already an art to manage health bars/aethers to efficiently kill farm animals. The tiny dopamine boosts from perfectly timing your WW to barely finish off a mob (or require just 1-2 more swings) were part of what made hunting fun. At Sam, adding an AoE vita to complement Inferno was a cool addition. There's already plenty of AoE with flank/backstab and PAs. Overflow was aptly named - it was completely unnecessary.

Thanks for the reply btw. I was hoping you would chime in, but also knew that you might instantly derail the thread. Let's try to stay focused on what made NexusTK so great in the early '00s - slow progression, having 4 paths that needed each other to progress (ignore PC paths - those can come later), and having easy access to people of similar lvl/stats in those paths to find hunts. A new retro server would accomplish all these things.

To end on a positive note, can you imagine how insanely fun those early carnages would be? It would be utter chaos.
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WereWulf
post Sep 9 2016, 03:09 PM
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Why should I have to be nice to anyone? If someone wants to be a mean spirited player than more power to them, in fact, as an MMORPG the game should allow and support players who are mean, rowdy, and just plain scum. Nexus should support both avenues of game play experience. It should not be all cupcakes and rainbows that supports only the players that follow the line and give out praises to one another.

Also, why is sage at all a dopamine release? What? When I got sage I didn't get all excited like when I hit Il-san or Ee-san. I simply thought now I can sage random thoughts at people, have funny one liners, and sell/buy items. Like DM mentioned they should have added an auction house and a looking for group function to reduce sage spam.

Finally, yes this game needs a complete overall in hunting mechanics. I currently play 3 games with a lot of continuous hours: Diablo 3, Wow, and Nexustk. Of those 3 games Nexustk is the only game I get annoyed and frustrated while hunting. In Diablo I have hundreds of monsters hurtling towards me! I unleash deadly and powerful attacks constantly to destroy them and as soon as I think its over another wave of them come. In Wow I join a raid group and fight bosses that are very well calculated and require precision from every raid member and focus to defeat them or we completely wipe the party. In Diablo and Wow I do in fact get a dopamine release as I am hunting. In Nexustk I just simply feel like its a chore. A routine that I simply have to do... I feel empty when doing it which slowly becomes annoying and repetitive.

Nexustk can be fun and I hope one day it is again.


--------------------
Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?
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darkmaverick
post Sep 9 2016, 04:00 PM
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Oh san
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 01:27 PM) *
Right away, it appears we have different goals. I want to experience the same game I played in high school with 500-2k players. You want to create a NexusTK utopia. Let's both agree that Wony doesn't have the resources to make a game on par with modern MMOs, and be realistic here.


I don't think you can experience the same game you played in high school because the factors of that time period no longer exist in the present day.

The game has the player population it has today because that is what the market allows for a game like NexusTK. Stuff like sam san trials and some players having 4M+ vita or even path balance issues related to overflow and rage don't have any impact whatsoever on brand new players to NexusTK. These elements of the game require months of gameplay to become a factor.

What new players know is the experience when they make a brand new peasant and appear in Tangun to hold down spacebar to kill alligators. They know the slow, tedious grind of holding spacebar to kill enemies, or zapping squirrels while running around in a circle. That's what they know.

The existence of other MMOs offering a superior gameplay experience to this is a core hindrance to the game population rebounding.

NexusTK's archaic design was acceptable in a market where pretty much all other MMOs had archaic designs like this, too. It was competitive in that market from 20 years ago.

You talk about mechanics and their relation to a dopamine release, but you forget that the novelty of a new experience very quickly wears off, encouraging people to seek out new and exciting experiences. This is why NexusTK's archaic design isn't really doing it for modern players. The people who are addicted to NexusTK aren't getting a significant dopamine release every time they hunt so much as they have simply fallen into a pattern of habit that causes the release. It's important to recognize the difference.


Also I do believe Wony has the resources necessary to make a game experience on par with MMOs. He has a server, he has a game engine, he's got graphical assets, he's got dungeon maps.

Where we probably agree is that Wony doesn't know how to use the resources, but that is a different problem than not possessing the resources. He has them. He just doesn't know how best to utilize them.

QUOTE
It's hard to take you seriously when you have such deep-seated hatred for certain people in the Nexus community. It discredits every point you make about them, which is a bummer because you normally have the ability to make some great points.


I make no effort to conceal my bias about people like Eldridge because of the firsthand experiences I've had with these people. I sat behind players who Eldridge spoke to and heard firsthand how he spoke to players and how incredibly important decisions like the formation of the Rangers occurred. I had my own direct interactions with him. I witnessed his jack assery behavior on numerous occasions, such as when he was finally fired and how he logged into the game to tell all the players Nexon was shutting NexusTK down and that Wony was a racist.

Even people who don't particularly like me will acknowledge these things happened. It's not my subjective interpretation of events.

My opinions of people like Eldridge are not based in hysteria; it's based on experiences, and as anecdotal as they may have been other people can confirm this crap went down exactly as I relay the stories thus making my beliefs based not just on personal experience but empirical data of the shared experiences.

So when I tell you I think Eldridge made the change to Sage with the intent to specifically frustrate people I am not being "toxic" -- I'm sharing an opinion that is supported by how the guy behaved as a GM when he interacted with players.

QUOTE
it should be fairly obvious that NexusTK's glory days were between '03-'06, no?


I wouldn't say that, no.

QUOTE
I omitted most of your history lesson, partly because I don't really care about your inevitable Chongun whining.


This line here makes me wonder if you fully read what I wrote in that post or if you skimmed over the paragraph.

Every time I mention Chonguns in a post doesn't mean I am talking about the same thing.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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halombobtk
post Sep 9 2016, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (WereWulf @ Sep 9 2016, 04:09 PM) *
Why should I have to be nice to anyone? If someone wants to be a mean spirited player than more power to them, in fact, as an MMORPG the game should allow and support players who are mean, rowdy, and just plain scum. Nexus should support both avenues of game play experience. It should not be all cupcakes and rainbows that supports only the players that follow the line and give out praises to one another.

Not sure if serious. Go play CoD if you genuinely feel this way. Or run for prez in the US.
QUOTE
Also, why is sage at all a dopamine release? What? When I got sage I didn't get all excited like when I hit Il-san or Ee-san. I simply thought now I can sage random thoughts at people, have funny one liners, and sell/buy items. Like DM mentioned they should have added an auction house and a looking for group function to reduce sage spam.

Surely those funny one-liners that everyone sees gives you a dopamine boost. Having aethers on world chat limits dopamine release, making the feeling more noticeable/meaningful when aethers are up.
QUOTE
Finally, yes this game needs a complete overall in hunting mechanics. I currently play 3 games with a lot of continuous hours: Diablo 3, Wow, and Nexustk. Of those 3 games Nexustk is the only game I get annoyed and frustrated while hunting. In Diablo I have hundreds of monsters hurtling towards me! I unleash deadly and powerful attacks constantly to destroy them and as soon as I think its over another wave of them come. In Wow I join a raid group and fight bosses that are very well calculated and require precision from every raid member and focus to defeat them or we completely wipe the party. In Diablo and Wow I do in fact get a dopamine release as I am hunting. In Nexustk I just simply feel like its a chore. A routine that I simply have to do... I feel empty when doing it which slowly becomes annoying and repetitive.

Nexustk can be fun and I hope one day it is again.

Another derail trying to compare a game with two devs to one with twenty. Be realistic! A complete overhaul isn't happening, and doesn't need to happen. The game was fun in '04 and will still be fun on a new server.
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darkmaverick
post Sep 9 2016, 04:37 PM
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Oh san
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 04:19 PM) *
Another derail trying to compare a game with two devs to one with twenty. Be realistic! A complete overhaul isn't happening, and doesn't need to happen. The game was fun in '04 and will still be fun on a new server.


You do realize in MMOs it is primarily one or two people who are responsible for the bulk of the PvE design, right?

The majority of people working on an MMO are not designers. The majority are making resources like art, and they aren't necessary once the initial build is done. They tend to be laid off or assigned to other development at the company until the next big expansion comes around.

The FFXIV development team has about twelve people on it right now.

Wony has a game engine and server, a ton of art, sound and music resources, and the bulk of the game content exists. Changing level requirements, adjusting spell and item formulas, and altering NPC AI isn't some impossible chore. The small team of NexusTK emulator servers did it starting out with less.


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halombobtk
post Sep 9 2016, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 04:00 PM) *
I don't think you can experience the same game you played in high school because the factors of that time period no longer exist in the present day.

Let's recap the past 12 years. We've seen exactly one new Diablo that wasn't really an improvement from D2, we've seen WoW surge in popularity then hemorrhage users, and we've seen one-dimensional mobile games turn small European outfits into multi-billion dollar entities. I'd actually argue that the market has moved away from 3D, immersive worlds with complicated encounters, and if anything, is more open to simplistic gameplay and cutesy graphics. This isn't because hardcore gamers don't want those things, but more because gaming in general has been thrust into the mainstream. AR/VR has the opportunity to change tastes once again, but you're underestimating the market for a game like NexusTK. At the end of the day, I'm only hoping for 500-2k users anyway. Btw, saying things like this:
QUOTE
The game has the player population it has today because that is what the market allows for a game like NexusTK.

is so short-sighted and defeatist. You could use that same logic to run a startup into the ground and simply say, "Well, the market wouldn't allow for my idea to work. Oh well." Speaking of which, what ever happened with this?:
QUOTE
Apr 10 2013, 05:17 PM
I know some people are going to think this sounds crazy, but I'm hoping the game limps along for awhile longer. If I make as much money running http://www.martelltv.com/ as I believe I will, I would actually be interested in buying the game from KRU if they did decide to sell their IP off because the finances don't make sense to them anymore. It has a good community, and I think the brand has more potential than what KRU did with it (there really should have been some spinoff comics, or at least a flash web series).

Genuinely interested, as I've seen more and more friends move to SF and start working for small companies. I think it's very cool what you and your brother tried to do (not the idea, but entrepreneurship in general). Feel free to PM me or not, I don't mind the derail at this point.
QUOTE
Stuff like sam san trials and some players having 4M+ vita or even path balance issues related to overflow and rage don't have any impact whatsoever on brand new players to NexusTK. These elements of the game require months of gameplay to become a factor. What new players know is the experience when they make a brand new peasant and appear in Tangun to hold down spacebar to kill alligators. They know the slow, tedious grind of holding spacebar to kill enemies, or zapping squirrels while running around in a circle. That's what they know.

New players either see a lonely grind in ugly, horrible Tangun that inevitably leads them to quit, or 1-99 in 20 minutes from leeching, blowing past most of the game's content. Both of these problems are instantly resolved with a new retro server. As for you painting the gameplay as tedious, have you seen Candy Crush? Clash of Clans? Pokemon Go? How could you possibly ignore the fact that there millions of people out there who LOVE repetitive, simple gameplay. Pokemon Go hit 500 million downloads and it's one of the most boring, simplistic pieces of trash ever created. Pressing spacebar and zapping squirrels entertained plenty of people, even as WoW vanilla asked for the same $10 subscription fee and offered a far better product.
QUOTE
The existence of other MMOs offering a superior gameplay experience to this is a core hindrance to the game population rebounding.

Not the fact that it hasn't been marketed anywhere in the past decade and was run into the ground by mug? Surely there are other factors involved. I'd wager gameplay has very little to do with it actually. Tangun, pacing, and lack of Steam presence are far more important hindrances.
QUOTE
NexusTK's archaic design was acceptable in a market where pretty much all other MMOs had archaic designs like this, too. It was competitive in that market from 20 years ago.

I've already hit on this elsewhere, but should probably add that retro gaming has surged in popularity, just like bell-bottoms did in the 90s.
QUOTE
You talk about mechanics and their relation to a dopamine release, but you forget that the novelty of a new experience very quickly wears off, encouraging people to seek out new and exciting experiences. This is why NexusTK's archaic design isn't really doing it for modern players. The people who are addicted to NexusTK aren't getting a significant dopamine release every time they hunt so much as they have simply fallen into a pattern of habit that causes the release. It's important to recognize the difference.

No, it's not important at all to recognize the difference. Modern gamers and gamers from ten years ago don't have fundamentally different brain chemistry. What are you even trying to say here? Simple, grindy games are wildly popular right now. Reading through the past five years of your posts, I've found you say "It's important to..." a lot and you're usually just being pedantic. It's like you know you're making a weak argument so you feel obligated to try to persuade the reader by telling them what you're saying is important. It's super weird. If it actually was "important to recognize the difference" you wouldn't need to say it.
QUOTE
Also I do believe Wony has the resources necessary to make a game experience on par with MMOs. He has a server, he has a game engine, he's got graphical assets, he's got dungeon maps. Where we probably agree is that Wony doesn't know how to use the resources, but that is a different problem than not possessing the resources. He has them. He just doesn't know how best to utilize them.

More wasted words misinterpreting the definition of "resources." Business acumen and game design prowess are resources too. This should've been obvious.
QUOTE
I make no effort to conceal my bias about people like Eldridge because of the firsthand experiences I've had with these people. I sat behind players who Eldridge spoke to and heard firsthand how he spoke to players and how incredibly important decisions like the formation of the Rangers occurred. I had my own direct interactions with him. I witnessed his jack assery behavior on numerous occasions, such as when he was finally fired and how he logged into the game to tell all the players Nexon was shutting NexusTK down and that Wony was a racist. Even people who don't particularly like me will acknowledge these things happened. It's not my subjective interpretation of events. My opinions of people like Eldridge are not based in hysteria; it's based on experiences, and as anecdotal as they may have been other people can confirm this crap went down exactly as I relay the stories thus making my beliefs based not just on personal experience but empirical data of the shared experiences. So when I tell you I think Eldridge made the change to Sage with the intent to specifically frustrate people I am not being "toxic" -- I'm sharing an opinion that is supported by how the guy behaved as a GM when he interacted with players.

You're missing the point! It's fine to not like someone, but when judging whether or not sage time-gating was a good decision, it's not OK to let your disdain for Eldridge affect your argument. You completely derailed things by going that route, and I'm guessing that's a large part of why people don't seem to like you much on these forums. You do it constantly. It's surprising since most of the time you're ridiculously left-brained and logical, but then you get emotional and weird whenever certain topics/names come up and the quality of your posts tank.
QUOTE
This line here makes me wonder if you fully read what I wrote in that post or if you skimmed over the paragraph. Every time I mention Chonguns in a post doesn't mean I am talking about the same thing.

You were giving me a history lesson about a time period I already experienced. You tried saying that rogues were better than warriors with small caveat that rogues weren't better than CRs (LOL). How can I possibly take anything in that paragraph seriously? =/

I've undoubtedly rubbed you the wrong way in these last two posts, and I apologize. You're actually one of the few people I admire on these forums based on what I've read in the past ~5 years of forum posts. You definitely have a mind for business and game design, which is refreshing when every other post both here and on Dreams seems to be some terrible, whiny suggestion about making the game easier. Again, thank you for responding. I'm really trying to drum up support for a new server, as I'd love to experience the game again how I remember it, rather than some cut-rate version with ugly maps and dumb crafting like Stelio spun up with [Content removed].
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halombobtk
post Sep 9 2016, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 04:37 PM) *
You do realize in MMOs it is primarily one or two people who are responsible for the bulk of the PvE design, right?

The majority of people working on an MMO are not designers. The majority are making resources like art, and they aren't necessary once the initial build is done. They tend to be laid off or assigned to other development at the company until the next big expansion comes around.

The FFXIV development team has about twelve people on it right now.

Wony has a game engine and server, a ton of art, sound and music resources, and the bulk of the game content exists. Changing level requirements, adjusting spell and item formulas, and altering NPC AI isn't some impossible chore. The small team of NexusTK emulator servers did it starting out with less.

One developer at Kru does not equal one developer at FFXIV.

DUCY?

I've played on two emulator servers recently and they both had major design flaws that made them super unplayable. Unsurprisingly, one was run by an alcoholic degen, and the other thought he could make a game for the US market without knowing English. Do you honestly think a seasoned game developer would ever work for a tiny company like Kru when they could make 2x more at a real gig or simply develop their own game? NexusTK isn't just going to land some rockstar game designer. Its best code is already written. That's why we should all be focused on getting a new server up that strips all the crap away and lets us enjoy what made it fun in the first place.
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Nacostradamuss
post Sep 9 2016, 06:59 PM
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Get a Room
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halombobtk
post Sep 9 2016, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Nacostradamuss @ Sep 9 2016, 07:59 PM) *
Get a Room

Srsly? This forum sees 1-4 posts a day. Why are you even here? Constructive criticism or gtho imo.
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darkmaverick
post Sep 9 2016, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 05:40 PM) *
Let's recap the past 12 years. We've seen exactly one new Diablo that wasn't really an improvement from D2, we've seen WoW surge in popularity then hemorrhage users, and we've seen one-dimensional mobile games turn small European outfits into multi-billion dollar entities. I'd actually argue that the market has moved away from 3D, immersive worlds with complicated encounters, and if anything, is more open to simplistic gameplay and cutesy graphics.


WoW just regained its Cataclysm subscriber numbers.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/wow-expan...4/1100-6443409/

Looking at the market in terms of demand for "3D games" or "retro games" misses that the market wants good games.

Blizzard made some mistakes in WoW's last expansion that turned people off. They are correcting the mistakes by improving their game design and thereby increasing the number of customers. KRU could learn something from this.

QUOTE
you're underestimating the market for a game like NexusTK. At the end of the day, I'm only hoping for 500-2k users anyway.


1. I don't think I'm underestimating the market for NexusTK as it is right now. If more people wanted to play the game then more people would play the game.

2. 500-2,000 players is such a low number of players that no developer in their right mind would intentionally try to aim this low with a consumer product. It's a financial consideration; you have more players, you make more money.

MMOs are easy to scale because the majority of the cost is upfront in the construction of the engine and game. The actual day to day operation has minuscule cost in comparison, so once you've reached a certain customer base the games essentially print money by devoting the majority of resources toward customer acquisition. The only feature development necessary is that which keeps the product competitive in the market.

This isn't true for just MMOs, it's true for any SaaS business model which MMOs are the oldest industry example of.

That your ideal version of the game is for it to intentionally be small implies that you're not really looking at the game in terms of its success as a consumer product but rather as a player who has beguiled himself into believing a small population somehow benefits yourself. While small numbers can be beneficial in the case of a service that costs an enterprise price-tag (where customers are paying hundreds of dollars a month), such a service doesn't work as well for a consumer product of $9.99 a month.

I think for players of a videogame where the service is entertainment alone, the conventional standard of success for a SaaS -- to have as many customers as possible and make as much as possible -- is better for the customers in that it ensures the service provider has the resources to continue improving the product while also ensuring its longevity because the day to day expenses are covered.

Intentionally having a small userbase in SaaS means the provider has to resort to finding ways to milk the customer base by creating add-on products. This is where the Kruna Shop becomes relevant in NexusTK as KRU creates a bunch of consumable items designed to get some people to spend hundreds of dollars a month to compensate for their inability to acquire new customers. This is what we're seeing in NexusTK right now. It generally does not work in the long term as customers abandon the service provider for other cheaper options in the market -- cheaper options because due to higher customer bases that competitor can offer a lower price for the same service.

Basically, NexusTK versus World of Warcraft.

You can get away with charging enterprise rates in SaaS only when the service is meant to help the customer in their business. The high cost is viewed as part of doing business, and ultimately helps the customer make money.

It doesn't work as well in the consumer market because people generally do not want to pay hundreds of dollars a month to play a videogame -- especially when they can get a superior entertainment experience with a different game that costs less money to play.

While players in Nexus can certainly choose to not buy Kruna items, they are at a disadvantage to those players who do. I'd not be surprised if people like Valandil do not see those exp items as a tempting offer because needing to stop hunting and take off all your items every 10 minutes has got to be pretty damn annoying, but on the other hand it's also not something any other game developer would ask of its customer base.

tl:dr

An MMO charging less money for service and having a larger customer base is better for MMO players than an MMO that charges more money and has less players.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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halombobtk
post Sep 9 2016, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 08:21 PM) *
Looking at the market in terms of demand for "3D games" or "retro games" misses that the market wants good games.

They don't though. Did you blow past my post? Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, Pokemon Go. All trash-tier games that are wildly popular. You and I want good games. The market just wants their well-paced dopamine. They listen to Miley Cyrus and Chris Brown. The average consumer couldn't care less about complicated/challenging content.
QUOTE
Blizzard made some mistakes in WoW's last expansion that turned people off. They are correcting the mistakes by improving their game design and thereby increasing the number of customers. KRU could learn something from this.

Again, did you not read my post? Kru will never, ever be able to hire a good enough GM to improve their game design. Their only hope is reverting back to when the game wasn't completely broken and letting former players fully tap into dat nostalgia.
QUOTE
1. I don't think I'm underestimating the market for NexusTK as it is right now. If more people wanted to play the game then more people would play the game.

First, where in my OP are you seeing anything about "NexusTK as it is right now?" I've always been asking for a new server that removes everything from Vortex onward (so everything mug did?). Also, how can people make a decision about a game they've never heard of? You're using the same defeatist logic that I already addressed.
QUOTE
2. 500-2,000 players is such a low number of players that no developer in their right mind would intentionally try to aim this low with a consumer product. It's a financial consideration; you have more players, you make more money.

Ldo, man. That doesn't change the fact that Wony would be ecstatic to see that kind of growth. You're spot on with this next block of text, but you're completely failing to realize how hard it is to make a hit game.
QUOTE
MMOs are easy to scale because the majority of the cost is upfront in the construction of the engine and game. The actual day to day operation has minuscule cost in comparison, so once you've reached a certain customer base the games essentially print money by devoting the majority of resources toward customer acquisition. The only feature development necessary is that which keeps the product competitive in the market. This isn't true for just MMOs, it's true for any SaaS business model which MMOs are the oldest industry example of. That your ideal version of the game is for it to intentionally be small implies that you're not really looking at the game in terms of its success as a consumer product but rather as a player who has beguiled himself into believing a small population somehow benefits yourself. While small numbers can be beneficial in the case of a service that costs an enterprise price-tag (where customers are paying hundreds of dollars a month), such a service doesn't work as well for a consumer product of $9.99 a month. I think for players of a videogame where the service is entertainment alone, the conventional standard of success for a SaaS -- to have as many customers as possible and make as much as possible -- is better for the customers in that it ensures the service provider has the resources to continue improving the product while also ensuring its longevity because the day to day expenses are covered. Intentionally having a small userbase in SaaS means the provider has to resort to finding ways to milk the customer base by creating add-on products. This is where the Kruna Shop becomes relevant in NexusTK as KRU creates a bunch of consumable items designed to get some people to spend hundreds of dollars a month to compensate for their inability to acquire new customers. This is what we're seeing in NexusTK right now. It generally does not work in the long term as customers abandon the service provider for other cheaper options in the market -- cheaper options because due to higher customer bases that competitor can offer a lower price for the same service.

Basically, NexusTK versus World of Warcraft.

You can get away with charging enterprise rates in SaaS only when the service is meant to help the customer in their business. The high cost is viewed as part of doing business, and ultimately helps the customer make money. It doesn't work as well in the consumer market because people generally do not want to pay hundreds of dollars a month to play a videogame -- especially when they can get a superior entertainment experience with a different game that costs less money to play. While players in Nexus can certainly choose to not buy Kruna items, they are at a disadvantage to those players who do. I'd not be surprised if people like Valandil do not see those exp items as a tempting offer because needing to stop hunting and take off all your items every 10 minutes has got to be pretty damn annoying, but on the other hand it's also not something any other game developer would ask of its customer base.

tl:dr

An MMO charging less money for service and having a larger customer base is better for MMO players than an MMO that charges more money and has less players.

Wony likely doesn't have the resources to turn NexusTK into a hit game. He does, however, have a decent sized base of former players that might get hyped about a retro server. ~500 players (even just a couple hundred due to everyone being on the same screen so often) all starting out on equal footing would make this a fun MMO again. ~75 active players at 12pm PST on a Saturday just isn't enough in a game like this.

Btw, no response about that post from 2013? I'm really curious.
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darkmaverick
post Sep 9 2016, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (halombobtk @ Sep 9 2016, 08:18 PM) *
They don't though. Did you blow past my post?


Given your concern about thread derailment I elected to not respond to the parts of your post that are widely off the original topic.

QUOTE
Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, Pokemon Go. All trash-tier games that are wildly popular. You and I want good games. The market just wants their well-paced dopamine. They listen to Miley Cyrus and Chris Brown. The average consumer couldn't care less about complicated/challenging content.


You're comparing entirely different kinds of games here.

Candy Crush and co. doesn't ask four hours out of your day. It's generally a time waster, the kind of thing you play on the subway ride or a lunch break.

Pokemon Go might be the only one requiring the same degree of time investment to make any serious advancement, but due to the emphasis on travel it's still the kind of game you can play while traveling to other places like the mall, the park, to work, school, etc.

NexusTK requires a person to sit down at their PC or laptop and devote several uninterrupted hours of time to make any meaningful progress, and its gameplay is heavily centered around teamwork. It's therefore more sensible to compare it to other MMOs than a single player casual play mobile game like Candy Crush, or even real-time strategy mobile games that are centered around PvP like Clash of Clans, or location based augmented reality games like Pokemon Go that pit a single player against opponents.

QUOTE
Kru will never, ever be able to hire a good enough GM to improve their game design


They may not ever do so, but it's not because they are unable to do so.

As it is within their capability to do such a thing they can thus be held accountable for not improving the game in meaningful ways.

QUOTE
Wony likely doesn't have the resources to turn NexusTK into a hit game. He does, however, have a decent sized base of former players that might get hyped about a retro server. ~500 players (even just a couple hundred due to everyone being on the same screen so often) all starting out on equal footing would make this a fun MMO again. ~75 active players at 12pm PST on a Saturday just isn't enough in a game like this.


He has a small customer base, and a list of former players email addresses. He can certainly kick such a thing off, but as I said before I think he would need to address the reasons the current server isn't performing as well as it could in order to make a new server succeed better than the current server does.

I also believe he has the resources necessary to make Nexus into a hit game.

QUOTE
Btw, no response about that post from 2013? I'm really curious.


Not really related but since you're clearly dying to know; I sold the digital video portion of my business over two years ago.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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halombobtk
post Sep 10 2016, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Sep 9 2016, 11:36 PM) *
You're comparing entirely different kinds of games here.

Sure, but the point was that gameplay doesn't have to be spectacularly interesting for a game to attract 2k people. If tens of thousands of people are willing to invest thousands of dollars into a mindless phone-tapper, I guarantee there are 2k people out there who would do the same for NexusTK if they knew it existed. My friend's wife was heavily addicted to Candy Crush and was by no means a casual player using it as a time-waster. She played it for hours when she got home from work and has dropped four figs on it. We still make fun of her for it. All the whales for those mobile games are the same. Any chance they get to play, they're playing.
QUOTE
They may not ever do so, but it's not because they are unable to do so.

I really don't think they're able to. Like I already said, what rockstar developer is going to work for Kru, even if they offered above market value? It would surely be a giant step backward for their career, and they would sooner start from scratch with better IP, no? Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic.
QUOTE
He has a small customer base, and a list of former players email addresses. He can certainly kick such a thing off, but as I said before I think he would need to address the reasons the current server isn't performing as well as it could in order to make a new server succeed better than the current server does.

I agree. Part of the reason I said wait til winter '16 or '17.
QUOTE
I also believe he has the resources necessary to make Nexus into a hit game.

You're definitely a dreamer! Part of that entrepreneurial spirit I suppose.
QUOTE
Not really related but since you're clearly dying to know; I sold the digital video portion of my business over two years ago.

A successful exit by age 30? Quite impressive.
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Krmit
post Sep 13 2016, 01:05 PM
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So we have here basically, an entire thread of 2 people picking apart each other's novels, sentence by sentence.

What an amazing read. Psych.
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Brant
post Sep 13 2016, 09:32 PM
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Sa san
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shhhh, it's like watching the gorilla exhibit at the zoo.

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halombobtk
post Sep 14 2016, 12:33 AM
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Dat grade school complex where the dumb kids pick on the smart kids for getting good grades, carried forth into adulthood. Not sure if adorable or super sad =(
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Doctor
post Sep 14 2016, 01:20 AM
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is that dm on another account ^


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Gerdi
post Sep 14 2016, 03:04 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Sep 14 2016, 01:20 AM) *
is that dm on another account ^

LOL
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