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SilentS
post Aug 4 2016, 01:35 PM
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Typing on my phone, so going to keep this brief.

When talking about time needed to get these stats, keep in mind those are under optimal LEECHING conditions. No new 99 is going to max every 30 min hunting with a group of their own stats. Same with Ilsan. Depending on what their play time per day is, it could possibly take 2-3 days to get an equivalent max. So that time theory doesn't work in this.

The Sam/sa time trials, by the time you get sa, you would be over half was to sa on MQ's. Remember, those trial's are not there for us, but rather for Kru to keep us regging.

As I have said before, other fixes are needed first. Ways to keep new players playing, then make the game less monotonous to play. Add more content. Doing that, if successful, could bring the population up. In turn it would give people more options to hunt and/or interact with others. DM' ideas and assessment are on the right track though.


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Doctor
post Aug 4 2016, 01:50 PM
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Uhm, of course that time theory works. The fact that those are ideal LEECHING conditions means it takes even LONGER to do things (which I factored in if you wanted to read through again). Just proves my point even more.

What other fix needs to be done before this? More content isn't going to make player's play more. "It takes 6 months to get to the 3rd mark, 400 days to get to the 4th mark? Man I'll go play any other game in the world." That kills anyone's ambition to play right out of the gate, no matter what gets added to the game.

Things that need to be done: path balancing, subpath balancing, put in engaging content for hunting, fix itemization. All of these things are needed, but are not as needed as fixing the exp issues and time gating that the game has. You will not gain or retain any new players as long as the time gating is in. You won't, you haven't.


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Krmit
post Aug 4 2016, 02:29 PM
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I dont quite agree with you Doc that new players would be "SOOOOOOOOOOO outa here the minute they start playing" I helped out a new player the other day gave him a military fork, some ambrosias and what not, he just registered for first time and was level 50.

The last thing he was asking about is "how long does it take to get sam san?" He was actually very interested in the game mechanic of being able to sell exp after 99 to become stronger. For some people (what you miss) is this can offer many many more chalanges such as stronger caves, stronger bosses, new areas to explore. For a new player exploration and understanding everythig about this game can take so much time in itself. You are a veteran, you understand the game but do not look at it objectively as a new player. You are looking at it as a new player but through the eyes of someone who has seen it all and has nothing left to expereience.

Congrats its called, you reached an end game, but for possibly many other new players out there there really is a decent amount of content, the unfortunate thing is the lack of people in their level range to actively engage with, or a cold community of people so high up on their horses that they wont want to help.

I enjoy trying to seek some of these players out and will spend my time hunting bosses, ogre caves, mantis, and what not to be able to hook them up with some new cool items that will help them on their journey because as you , i have experienced much also it is enjoyable to me to try to give back to some new players especially with digital items that i will never use or need.
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Hijack
post Aug 4 2016, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (Krmit @ Aug 4 2016, 02:29 PM) *
I dont quite agree with you Doc that new players would be "SOOOOOOOOOOO outa here the minute they start playing" I helped out a new player the other day gave him a military fork, some ambrosias and what not, he just registered for first time and was level 50.

The last thing he was asking about is "how long does it take to get sam san?" He was actually very interested in the game mechanic of being able to sell exp after 99 to become stronger. For some people (what you miss) is this can offer many many more chalanges such as stronger caves, stronger bosses, new areas to explore. For a new player exploration and understanding everythig about this game can take so much time in itself. You are a veteran, you understand the game but do not look at it objectively as a new player. You are looking at it as a new player but through the eyes of someone who has seen it all and has nothing left to expereience.

Congrats its called, you reached an end game, but for possibly many other new players out there there really is a decent amount of content, the unfortunate thing is the lack of people in their level range to actively engage with, or a cold community of people so high up on their horses that they wont want to help.

I enjoy trying to seek some of these players out and will spend my time hunting bosses, ogre caves, mantis, and what not to be able to hook them up with some new cool items that will help them on their journey because as you , i have experienced much also it is enjoyable to me to try to give back to some new players especially with digital items that i will never use or need.


Anyone who I have ever told you have to write poetry for progression, wait 365 days for progression or wait 400 days for progression has laughed and said W T F.
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Krmit
post Aug 4 2016, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Aug 4 2016, 04:12 PM) *
Anyone who I have ever told you have to write poetry for progression, wait 365 days for progression or wait 400 days for progression has laughed and said W T F.


If i tell an obese guy to run a marathon thats 400 lbs of pure fat, he will probably have to lose some weight before he can ever cross that finish line though first... right?
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Micoris
post Aug 4 2016, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (Krmit @ Aug 4 2016, 04:07 PM) *
If i tell an obese guy to run a marathon thats 400 lbs of pure fat, he will probably have to lose some weight before he can ever cross that finish line though first... right?


Are these comments related? They don't feel related.
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Brancrese
post Aug 11 2016, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Aug 3 2016, 12:06 AM) *
Everyone between sa san and mega stats (top 5 of your path) is getting the same amount of experience, for the most part, which is around 24-30 minutes a max.



This is a perfect example of why, although I agree with your proposed changes and understand where you're coming from; it actually doesn't matter at all. Changing that curve doesn't actually make any difference, because once you hit a certain point, EXP is exactly the same, and the additional vita/mana you buy only help in PvP, which pretty much sucks anyway.

Not to beat a dead horse here, as I know it's been said a thousand times before, but a game simply cannot exist under that never ending stat formula. It cannot, and will not work, not now, not ever. Yes, you'll keep a few people around who don't mind grinding endlessly, doing the same thing over and over again, so they can feel cool that their arbitrary stat numbers, which don't actually get them anything anyway, are higher than someone else's. But you can't sustain a game on that.

There's a reason WoW has always had level caps, because when you expand, it's easy to get new people back up to that curve and put them in range to start playing the game with everyone else. You grind out for your gear, or gold, or to get achievements, not for stats. Sure, that loses them some people at the end of each expansion, as there's nothing left for them to do at some point. But it's sustainable, most of those people come back, once there's something new to do. There's a reason that game still has millions of subs, and is still the most successful MMO in the market.

Nexus has a flawed model. You can make things better, you can put in same changes that will enhance certain aspects, maybe bring some people back. But the PvE/PvP system will always be fundamentally broken as long as it's based on this never-ending stats model.
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CRKL
post Aug 11 2016, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Aug 2 2016, 08:25 PM) *
To put that in even greater words, assuming you're getting maxes every 30 minutes no more no less, From sa san to oh san it will take you 1641.6 hours. If you wanted to catch up to Egg's stats, you would need to spend 6778 hours or 284 full days of your life hunting.


QUOTE (Doctor @ Aug 4 2016, 01:05 PM) *
3. To reach oh san it will take you 526 hours assuming 30 minutes a max from level 99. So, again, more like 600ish. 600 hours. We have no idea if there will be additional time trials, but assuming there isn't 600 hours is the average amount of time it would take to complete your bachelors, your masters, and your doctorate for almost any non STEM field.


I'm really tired but these numbers seem to be off
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Hijack
post Aug 11 2016, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Brancrese @ Aug 11 2016, 12:32 PM) *
This is a perfect example of why, although I agree with your proposed changes and understand where you're coming from; it actually doesn't matter at all. Changing that curve doesn't actually make any difference, because once you hit a certain point, EXP is exactly the same, and the additional vita/mana you buy only help in PvP, which pretty much sucks anyway.

Not to beat a dead horse here, as I know it's been said a thousand times before, but a game simply cannot exist under that never ending stat formula. It cannot, and will not work, not now, not ever. Yes, you'll keep a few people around who don't mind grinding endlessly, doing the same thing over and over again, so they can feel cool that their arbitrary stat numbers, which don't actually get them anything anyway, are higher than someone else's. But you can't sustain a game on that.

There's a reason WoW has always had level caps, because when you expand, it's easy to get new people back up to that curve and put them in range to start playing the game with everyone else. You grind out for your gear, or gold, or to get achievements, not for stats. Sure, that loses them some people at the end of each expansion, as there's nothing left for them to do at some point. But it's sustainable, most of those people come back, once there's something new to do. There's a reason that game still has millions of subs, and is still the most successful MMO in the market.

Nexus has a flawed model. You can make things better, you can put in same changes that will enhance certain aspects, maybe bring some people back. But the PvE/PvP system will always be fundamentally broken as long as it's based on this never-ending stats model.


That's why having dynamic changing stats is a good idea for pvp (ie: balancers)

For pve? no issue with endless stats
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Doctor
post Aug 12 2016, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (Brancrese @ Aug 11 2016, 10:32 AM) *
This is a perfect example of why, although I agree with your proposed changes and understand where you're coming from; it actually doesn't matter at all. Changing that curve doesn't actually make any difference, because once you hit a certain point, EXP is exactly the same, and the additional vita/mana you buy only help in PvP, which pretty much sucks anyway.

Not to beat a dead horse here, as I know it's been said a thousand times before, but a game simply cannot exist under that never ending stat formula. It cannot, and will not work, not now, not ever. Yes, you'll keep a few people around who don't mind grinding endlessly, doing the same thing over and over again, so they can feel cool that their arbitrary stat numbers, which don't actually get them anything anyway, are higher than someone else's. But you can't sustain a game on that.

There's a reason WoW has always had level caps, because when you expand, it's easy to get new people back up to that curve and put them in range to start playing the game with everyone else. You grind out for your gear, or gold, or to get achievements, not for stats. Sure, that loses them some people at the end of each expansion, as there's nothing left for them to do at some point. But it's sustainable, most of those people come back, once there's something new to do. There's a reason that game still has millions of subs, and is still the most successful MMO in the market.

Nexus has a flawed model. You can make things better, you can put in same changes that will enhance certain aspects, maybe bring some people back. But the PvE/PvP system will always be fundamentally broken as long as it's based on this never-ending stats model.

Not disagreeing with you, we'll never get away from that model though.


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Krmit
post Aug 12 2016, 09:19 AM
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I'm sorry but i'm only in the 500+/150+ range and i really don't care who has insane stats, i find my own ways to enjoy the game. If its stats/PVP you seek, go earn them, if it is power you seek in a sub path, work hard and become a guide/elder. If its quality role-play you seek, go to sub path and community events or host your own. If you are a creative writer, join many of the poetry and story contests that are held in the kingdoms daily/weekly.

There is much more to the game than just being teh most uber pk player alive. If someone wrecks you in sire, GO HUNT, you dont want to put in the time? DON'T CRY.

This generation as a whole is personified by some of the posts on this thread, which is that of the biggest (insert furry cat reference)'s ever. Everyone just wants wants wants wants wants, instead of going to earn it themselves regardless of how hard they think it may be.

Make no mistakes about it through, you bot or use 3rd party program's i have no pity for you when your ass gets banned. In addition, i hope that at some point in future Wony is able to look into this with grater detail than ever before.
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Doctor
post Aug 12 2016, 12:05 PM
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What you're describing has nothing to do with "this generation of gamers." This is the gaming equivalent of "well back in my day I had to walk up hill 10 miles, twice, in the snow, just to get to school!" You're not talking about playing a game, or game design, you're talking as someone who isn't a gamer and doesn't play games. You're an old Nexus player. Not a gamer. It's never been a viable business option to have the time gating and infinite stat gap, that's why Nexus is the only game in the HISTORY OF GAMES to have it.

Everyone who is asking for less time gating and bringing people up to larger stat thresholds so more people can play the game together are buffer than you. We're past Oh San stats. This change doesn't even effect us. C'mon man.


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Brant
post Aug 12 2016, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor @ Aug 12 2016, 12:05 PM) *
What you're describing has nothing to do with "this generation of gamers." This is the gaming equivalent of "well back in my day I had to walk up hill 10 miles, twice, in the snow, just to get to school!" You're not talking about playing a game, or game design, you're talking as someone who isn't a gamer and doesn't play games. You're an old Nexus player. Not a gamer. It's never been a viable business option to have the time gating and infinite stat gap, that's why Nexus is the only game in the HISTORY OF GAMES to have it.

Everyone who is asking for less time gating and bringing people up to larger stat thresholds so more people can play the game together are buffer than you. We're past Oh San stats. This change doesn't even effect us. C'mon man.


You bring up a good point. There are so many people who play Nexus that probably don't even play any other game or would even be considered gamers. They started playing Nexus in it's prime when it was becoming a popular outlet for socializing. Look at the majority of people who have 'power' roles in Nexus, I highly doubt any of them even play any other game; and that's a huge problem.
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darkmaverick
post Aug 12 2016, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Brant @ Aug 12 2016, 01:16 PM) *
You bring up a good point. There are so many people who play Nexus that probably don't even play any other game or would even be considered gamers. They started playing Nexus in it's prime when it was becoming a popular outlet for socializing. Look at the majority of people who have 'power' roles in Nexus, I highly doubt any of them even play any other game; and that's a huge problem.


When you strip away the PvP and PvE aspects of the game you are essentially left with a chat room where people have a page on their profile for legend marks.

Even with subpaths and clans, you essentially have players maintaining control over other players based on PvE and PvP advantages which these groups provide. Subpaths have always had spells that offer economic and combat advantages, and clans originally had the non-repairable clan helms whose AC was on par with uber rare sun helms (so unless you were rich, if you wanted the best AC helm you needed to be in a clan). Now of course helm AC is balanced differently by the introduction of new helms, but by that time the clans had already obtained crafting tables with higher success rates and easier access to banks to speed up the crafting process. There is also the kingdom defender dyes which are awarded to the most loyal players in the clans and people will do all kinds of mad things to earn the recognition.

The political leaders in the game may very well use the game primarily as a chat room but their influence is based largely on their control over other players having advantages in the game proper.

Because Archons hold subpath and clan leader positions they use their influence with GMs to ensure they maintain control. It's not so much that they may not play any other games but rather that their reason for playing the game is totally different than the rest of the playerbase. This is the only rational explanation for why their additions are so at odds for what is most beneficial for the game players and for KRU, and for why what is very obvious problems don't get addressed.

KRU really doesn't know what it is doing to maximize profits (ie. make a game that lots of people want to play) and relies too heavily on a small segment of the playerbase that has ulterior motives in their advice. This is the single biggest problem with how KRU operates and it will always hinder the problems getting addressed.

Given this, I have a strong suspicion the reason KRU has introduced these ridiculous orb items that can only be used by 99+ players and address none of the pre-99 design issues that hurt new player recruitment (which is what needs addressing more than anything). The idea was almost certainly proposed by some Archon claiming they can use these orbs to "playtest new content" but who really just wanted to gain the advantage of the effects.

Any other developer would simply use the playtest server to test these ideas in a way that isolates their effects from the real server so that improperly balanced content doesn't negatively impact the paid game. KRU instead does something this absurd. There's a reason for this and I deduce it is because KRU is the only MMORPG developer that doesn't hire knowledgeable game designers and instead relies on volunteer players who receive payment in influence over the game -- which they use as a crutch to make themselves feel better about their inadequacies in the real world.

Edit: Before someone tries to make a jab at me for spending time on these forums (which I am sure certain individuals are wanton to do:

My interest in NexusTK for the past several years has mostly been out of nostalgia. I'm curious about what happens in a game I spent a lot of my teenage years in. I also have an interest in seeing what will ultimately make the game pivot to success or finally succumb to closure; either outcome has value for me as I work as a consultant for entertainment companies and the use case has much to learn from it. Thinking about the problems facing KRU is a useful thought experiment, especially since I know the game so well.

But when I finish this post I'm going to go back to my semi-retired life where I don't have any schedule except what I decide to do. I have reliable steady income even if I do not work because I've made the correct investments of my time and money, and I travel as I desire. I've been successful in my life.

I know this is not the case for the people who have invested all of their free time into gaining and maintaining political influence in NexusTK. Part of me pities them but the other part disdains them for obstruction of what could have been an extremely popular and successful game. This wasted potential offends me in a primal way, however irrational it might be. It's just the kind of person that I am.


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Hijack
post Aug 12 2016, 04:02 PM
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I can't believe it took them this long to finally enable damage numbers when "disneyland" (you know what I'm talking about) had it enabled ~8 years ago through a .dll modification. This is something games have had for the past 16 years or so, and there was no reason to just disable it. It shows you how out of touch the previous developers were with gamers. I give them a little props for making it a toggleable thing.
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Conro
post Aug 12 2016, 05:08 PM
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I can't see explaining away any sort of time gating for features in the game.

I can see time gating for things that aren't core to the game (like glamour rewards for being registered), but having to wait 400 days just to actually access the end game is an instant turn off.

If someone wants to start a game and no life it and grind to the end game as quickly as possible, they should be allowed to do it. They shouldn't have to pay the company an excess of a hundred bucks and sit around for over a year just to join friends who are in end game content using end game gear and abilities.

There's a reason this game never took off and this was a BIG part of it. Every friend I tried to get to play liked the core concept of the game and the mechanics, but hated the time gating and the absolute horrible grind it took just to get them to level 99. It's just not fun leveling, period.


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Hijack
post Aug 13 2016, 10:52 AM
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QUOTE (Conro @ Aug 12 2016, 05:08 PM) *
There's a reason this game never took off and this was a BIG part of it. Every friend I tried to get to play liked the core concept of the game and the mechanics, but hated the time gating and the absolute horrible grind it took just to get them to level 99. It's just not fun leveling, period.


bingo

The designer who came up with this concept is a [Content removed]ing moron.
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Krmit
post Aug 15 2016, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (Hijack @ Aug 13 2016, 11:52 AM) *
bingo

The designer who came up with this concept is a [Content removed]ing moron.


Because you know, god forbid you play a game where you have to level up.
Welcome all to the age of entitlement.
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Brant
post Aug 15 2016, 09:19 AM
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QUOTE (Krmit @ Aug 15 2016, 08:34 AM) *
Because you know, god forbid you play a game where you have to level up.
Welcome all to the age of entitlement.


That's something that old people say.

Truth is, with so many platforms and other games available, you have to be able to make your game worth sticking around for. Even AAA title games now are only seeing playtime for a couple of weeks, then people go on to the next game. You don't see developers making as many MMOs anymore because 1) They take a huge amount of time to develop 2) you have to keep the servers up and running, continuous maintenance 3) you have to keep your player base interested and providing new content constantly.

What's the last big MMO you can think of that has been released that had any type of praise? I honestly can't even think of one off the top of my head.
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Krmit
post Aug 15 2016, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (Brant @ Aug 15 2016, 10:19 AM) *
That's something that old people say.

Truth is, with so many platforms and other games available, you have to be able to make your game worth sticking around for. Even AAA title games now are only seeing playtime for a couple of weeks, then people go on to the next game. You don't see developers making as many MMOs anymore because 1) They take a huge amount of time to develop 2) you have to keep the servers up and running, continuous maintenance 3) you have to keep your player base interested and providing new content constantly.

What's the last big MMO you can think of that has been released that had any type of praise? I honestly can't even think of one off the top of my head.


The popular advertised game of choice nowadays is any mobile app game that becomes a hit. The field is rapidly changing and there is no identity. One day its clash of clans, the next day pokemon go (gps based), or candy crush (turn based puzzle game) because they are so easy to develop and accessible to a billion people with astronomic earning potential via a play store.

The problem with those games? Most of them lack depth and only continue to reiterate the, me me me gotta have it now style of if you cant do it in 2-3 minutes, forget about it or buy some cash item instead of working to try to figure out the trick to the game or understand the algorithm. The average person is too simple minded and 'one try and f**** this' kind of mentality.
There is still a large population of gamers out there who appreciate a good game with quality and depth but it seems the genre of MMO is somewhat in decline from what it was 15 years ago.

That being said there is the reason you do not see blockbuster mmo releases with the "praise" to the level of some of the mobile games i just mentioned. But there are very good games still out there and constantly being created, as well as good old onese still surviving.
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