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> Jail system, What did Wony mean
Yeas
post Jun 22 2016, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE (Brancrese @ Jun 22 2016, 10:09 AM) *
Didn't read a word of Vini/DM's gripe fest, way too long, and much of the same stuff.

Honestly though, I don't know how anyone can defend a player run justice system. It's quite literally insane for Game Developers to take the playing experience of their paying customers, and place it into the hands of non-staff members who still play the game. It's a complete conflict of interest, in no way, shape, or form, should any player have that kind of power over others.

The Subpath system is bad enough, player run justice is the worst possible thing that could exist. How it's taken so long for them to realize this just astounds me.


Dear Branc,

According to Vini, without a law degree, you are neither qualified to discuss the legal system of a video game nor legal concepts such as conflict of interest.

Yours truly,

Sarcasm.

Losing the justice system would be a huge issue for the people who benefit/are part of it. As you can see by the defenders of the system.


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Brant
post Jun 22 2016, 09:46 AM
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I thought the 'law degree' comment was amusing as well. Let's not forget the people who wrote most of the 'laws' in Nexus are no more qualified to do so than any other player.
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Krmit
post Jun 22 2016, 10:14 AM
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I mean the Vini and DM thing was 80 pages of IDGAF lol... I skipped that entire squabble.

All in all you cant equate American court system and style of justice to a game. In Nexus you can say something that "offends someone" can include no swearing, but can be considered "harassment"
Profanity and harassment makes the justice system lose all of its credibility.

I can understand a form of punishment for botting/cheating/murder/serious other/ violation of TOS whatever it may be... But because i maybe say "Oh my wife was sooo horny last night" i legit can get jailed if some griefer tried to report me. Like get over yourselves were not 12 anymore, the majority of player base is probably 21-40+ now and nobody really gives a crap.

Anyway bottom line is in a game i dont think my branding from like y26 when i was literally 12 should have any bearing on my gaming experience now.
EVEN if we were talking about real life arrests, those would be cleared from my record after a certain period of time, so why after 18 years of in game play am i still having to deal with red brands when ive been a law abiding citizen for the last 18 years.



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Vini
post Jun 22 2016, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (Yeas @ Jun 22 2016, 07:12 AM) *
According to Vini, without a law degree, you are neither qualified to discuss the legal system of a video game nor legal concepts such as conflict of interest.


Dear Yeas,

Please don't put words on my mouth, or in this distort what I said to try to claim a disturbed point you might try to do.

I never said one needs a law degree to discuss the law system, I was questioning DarkMaverick's self-eleged authority to claim "It's very clear that people like Teragg have no business being placed in charge of the enforcement of game rules". This is according to HIS views. If Teragg wasn't good enough, he wouldn't be the head judge who served longest in Nexus.


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darkmaverick
post Jun 22 2016, 11:27 AM
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Vini, I could go line by line and reply to every single thing but I really don't have the time to do that this morning.

I know I'm criticizing people you are / were close to like Teragg and Sarina, so much of what you are saying back is an emotional response, which is why you've made deeply flawed arguments like "You can't understand legal principles unless you're a lawyer".

You need to understand how your friends treat you can be different than how they treat other people, and that the Justice system is a form of trolling.

By your own acknowledgment you don't play other MMOs. Perhaps it is time you did so you can start to understand other points of view better.

There is a reason it's only the Archons and Judges who want the Justice system to continue.


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Vini
post Jun 22 2016, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (Krmit @ Jun 22 2016, 08:14 AM) *
I mean the Vini and DM thing was 80 pages of IDGAF lol... I skipped that entire squabble.


You did good Krmit. Skipping that entire conversation will save you from losing your precious time to read useless stuff.

I guess I'll join you and just ignore the next 10 paged replies of DarkMaverick. Sorry DM, I still like you, you know that, but I don't have time to keep this going over and over and over and over. tongue.gif


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Vini
post Jun 22 2016, 11:28 AM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 22 2016, 09:27 AM) *
Vini, I could go line by line and reply to every single thing but I really don't have the time to do that this morning.


Perfect! We finally agree on this matter. Let's use our time for more important things. laugh.gif


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Doctor
post Jun 22 2016, 11:44 AM
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The only people who want to see the justice system continue to be in the game still are the judges. This much is clear and should be evident that it's time to move on.


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Yeas
post Jun 22 2016, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 22 2016, 12:25 PM) *
Dear Yeas,

Please don't put words on my mouth, or in this distort what I said to try to claim a disturbed point you might try to do.

I never said one needs a law degree to discuss the law system, I was questioning DarkMaverick's self-eleged authority to claim "It's very clear that people like Teragg have no business being placed in charge of the enforcement of game rules". This is according to HIS views. If Teragg wasn't good enough, he wouldn't be the head judge who served longest in Nexus.


Dear Vini,

Please do not back away from implications of your statements, you are not as clever as you think yourself.

You attacked DM's comparison of the Nexus justice system to the American justice system on the basis he lacked the qualifications to make such an analogy. While, and I am repeating, that such an analogy is clearly flawed for many reasons but none of which are the reasons you attempt to give (which to remind you is that DM lacks proper credentials to make such an analogy).

The spirit of DM's argument is sound, and been echoed throughout. Terragg is abusing this power for his, and his perceived representation of the player base (read: his friends), benefit. Now, apparently this includes you but I have to admit, I got no clue who you are. You were irrelevant when I played this game but I can say that from the things you post on these forums that you are desperately clinging to something.

I hope life works out for you.

In closing, your pitiful arguments are mine to distort for my own amusement.

Yours truly,

Yeas


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Conro
post Jun 22 2016, 12:58 PM
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I love that no other successful MMO uses a player run "justice" system, and seems to do just fine, and doesn't have people quit because of it.

Vini, you're straight up delusional to even try defending this dumpster fire. So much of what it's supposedly needed for can be addressed with pretty simple terms.

1) Add a toggle profanity filter. Are you delicate flower who can't stand to see a curse word? Turn it on and be done with it.
2) Expand the ignore list. Players on your list cannot contact you or be heard in anyway.
3) Detach "justice" from having ANY kind of negative effect on your character besides putting you one step closer to a temporary or permanent ban.
- This include both joining player run organizations AND progressing in the game.
4) Dissolve the player run justice system. Use tickets to review any cases of extreme harassment, threats etc.


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Brancrese
post Jun 22 2016, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (Conro @ Jun 22 2016, 01:58 PM) *
I love that no other successful MMO uses a player run "justice" system, and seems to do just fine, and doesn't have people quit because of it.

Vini, you're straight up delusional to even try defending this dumpster fire. So much of what it's supposedly needed for can be addressed with pretty simple terms.

1) Add a toggle profanity filter. Are you delicate flower who can't stand to see a curse word? Turn it on and be done with it.
2) Expand the ignore list. Players on your list cannot contact you or be heard in anyway.
3) Detach "justice" from having ANY kind of negative effect on your character besides putting you one step closer to a temporary or permanent ban.
- This include both joining player run organizations AND progressing in the game.
4) Dissolve the player run justice system. Use tickets to review any cases of extreme harassment, threats etc.


All of this is 100% accurate.

The simple truth is, while the statement that you can't equate real life laws/justice into a video game world, all of it has to be based on 1 single principle. A fundamental right to due process and fairness. This simply cannot occur when people who play the game, dispense that justice. There is no such thing as perfect integrity, even the most honorable can be subconsciously effected without even realizing it. But I'd go as far as saying there haven't been many justices who fit that "honor and integrity" bill anyway.

All player disciple should be handled by staff, not Archons who also have characters in game, paid staff who work only for Kru. Period. It's what literally every other MMO in the world does.

Profanity/Harrassment? Addressed by #1 and 2 above, you don't need jail for that. If normal means of stopping it aren't enough, let people submit a ticket and have staff deal with it.

The burden on that staff becomes less when you put in simple, common sense measures like this to deal with the trivial crap. Then, staff or only dealing with the serious stuff: Basically any form of cheating that should lead to account suspensions, or bans (botting, duping, bug abuse, etc...)

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Jann
post Jun 22 2016, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 21 2016, 05:07 PM) *
In Nexus people HAS the right to appeal to a higher level if they want to contest a verdict. I explain this to every defendant and/or plaintiff who contests any verdict I give. People in cases handled by a judge can appeal to Head Judge. In cases handled by Head Judge, they can appeal to Archon of Justice, in cases handled by archons can appeal to Archon Primogens, and if the cases were handled by Archon Primogen it can be appealed to KRU. Can't skip the chain of command and go straight to KRU if your case is handled by a judge.


As of recent, this is almost entirely false. Outside of Judges, there is no case. There is no case or trial with Archons, you are not given a chance to explain your actions, you are jailed. Just take a look at the scum board, you will see that a large portion (probably 75%) of the jailings are handled by Archons without any form of a trial by a judge. Who should you go to in the situation that an Archon jails you? The head judge? The corrupt Archon that jailed you? The Archon that put that corrupt Archon in power? KRU, who does not respond to tickets? Archons completely glance over the justice process entirely and jail people, often without even telling them what they did or confronting them beforehand.

For example: Horus, the [Content removed]ing idiot who jailed my characters, did not message me or send me a n-mail after handing out negative marks to my characters so this is all speculation. But, one of my characters had their sage removed and received a blue "handled by" for calling hosts idiots via sage because they hosted a TAG during MMM. This is basically the same as being jailed. Childish? Yes. Worthy of a jailing? Probably not. My other character received a 6-term jailing for using my sage to reply to someone else's sexual innuendo, "ELFgifts: Shinokou meant beast in the sheets when he hunts bed(3)" with "Janny: Sheets as in my little brother, Stew".

So what did I do? I "appealed" to the Archon Primogen Alilolelotte, who had no idea about anything in either situation. She basically replied to my "appeal" with harsh cynicism and gave excuses for her fellow Archon's actions. The excuse she gave was: "Calling hosts idiots will start a riot in the event". A riot in an event that I was not even in, I was at East gate Buya. So the next step was to ticket KRU, where I would never receive a reply.

BIG SURPRISE!

The best option people have is to pull an Egg and go buy a duped royal pardon from Mike Perfetto, as long as you really feel like spending 300$ on a dumb ass item just because some internet pleb is upset that you killed his main in a PvP event on a game that is almost 20 years old. tongue.gif


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Vini
post Jun 22 2016, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (Jann @ Jun 22 2016, 12:56 PM) *
As of recent, this is almost entirely false.


I'm sorry Jann, but it's not false at all. People DO have that right and we judges do our part on that. I don't really know how things work in the archon level, but I -presume- it would be the same, but you're right I can't confirm if they do or not. From what I saw of Alilolelotte she cares a lot about making things right, so I think if situations like that come to her attention she reviews it. I also -presume- Alilolelotte gets around 30-50 nmails daily which sort of would be a reason she can't respond to all, but she does pay attention to everything going on.

You're correct when you say that only judges have trials to hear the defendant, but it's only judges who handle cases with screenshots of others. According to Guide board "Archons do not actively administer justice" which basically means they only act if they witness a player violating an in-game law.

In my personal opinion jailing is the worst situation we can have. I do remember when I was first judge in 2005, I knew a judge who enjoyed jailing people. He would practically celebrate when he jailed someone. I can at least say the person was no longer judge when I was Head Judge. To be honest, being Head Judge is one of the positions that gives most headache to a player. You practically hear people whining daily about "why xxx isn't jailed?" "why i got jailed?" "xxx is corrupt because he jailed me" and bla bla bla, it's normally the same cry babies who probably couldn't follow simple rules since school. Guess what people? Every society has rules! Same people crying here about how other games don't have a justice system like Nexus are the same people who can't quit Nexus afterlife because they hate the community of other games.

I do agree with most Conro points anyway.
I think his point 1) and 2) are very good and feasible Point 4) would be feasible if there were many more Kru staff members working on Nexus. Perhaps one day this might be possible, I surely would be happy with that. The only point I disagree with Conro's 4 points list is the 3rd one which would never work.


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darkmaverick
post Jun 22 2016, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 22 2016, 03:26 PM) *
I do agree with most Conro points anyway.
I think his point 1) and 2) are very good and feasible Point 4) would be feasible if there were many more Kru staff members working on Nexus. Perhaps one day this might be possible, I surely would be happy with that. The only point I disagree with Conro's 4 points list is the 3rd one which would never work.


Point 3, that penalties to your account such as temporary suspensions should not inhibit your gameplay once the punishment has been fulfilled, is precisely how it works in every other MMORPG in the world.

If someone gets suspended for 7 days in WoW or FFXIV for severe harassment, they don't come back to discover they can't enter cities, have lost complete access to global chat, have been kicked out of their guild and must wait 300 days to level up from 50 to 60 (which would be comparable to losing Sage and not being able to complete San trials now).

The Justice system in Nexus isn't designed to merely deter bad behavior, it's designed to utterly ruin someone's ability to advance in the game. This causes it to be used as a weapon in grudges between players.

Also it's fairly uncommon for people to get these suspensions in other MMOs because there are relatively few ways to meaningfully harass someone, outside of perhaps PVP zones where the GMs acknowledge corpse camping and trash talking are normal. The only time I've had to report someone in FFXIV is during a Crystal Tower raid where an entire alliance had been pre-made and were intentionally failing a mechanic to wipe the rest of the raid, and apparently were doing it as some kind of troll Twitch channel. Unfortunately due to a design over-sight, there's no way to vote kick someone who isn't in the same alliance as you.

Outside of this isolated example, there's really no way to harass people in FFXIV. If people troll in parties, they get vote kicked out. If people curse and insult, they get ignored. There's certainly no ability to summon AFK people into PVP maps where all their items will break.


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Krmit
post Jun 22 2016, 04:06 PM
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This post will probably get deleted but if you want one character name that epitomizes the word corrupt, and the reason behind all of my brandings.

Rowann

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Loxie
post Jun 22 2016, 04:52 PM
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The justice system needs some major changes.

Namely, the reporting system should be used to filter out spam, garbage, and situations only requiring warnings, time out, or silencing. Jailings should strictly be done by a KRU employee that oversees the justice team. As it is, it takes a team of players to handle everything.

The rules also need to be changed. A toggle filter would be a good start, but even then there are people who will filter skip. If a customer doesn't want to be cursed at or be abused by another customer, they shouldn't be. It's that simple. This is where a player justice team would be useful. Rather than outright jailing they can receive warnings. If the player continues to be an ass take their sage, silence them, whatever needs to be done to get the point across that their behavior towards the other players is unacceptable.

Insta-jailings are also stupid. Sometimes people do stupid things. Why take their gameplay away from it if it's an isolated incident?

*My* major concern is Wony's post regarding the bannings. Yes, ban cheaters. But you are running a company. If you want to start advertising like you claim you do, you can't be going on a tirade and calling your customers filth and scum. Remove their access, but be professional about it. Resorting to an insulting, inflammatory post like that only encourages players to participate in vigilante justice and start harassing others.
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Brancrese
post Jun 22 2016, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Loxie @ Jun 22 2016, 05:52 PM) *
The justice system needs some major changes.

Namely, the reporting system should be used to filter out spam, garbage, and situations only requiring warnings, time out, or silencing. Jailings should strictly be done by a KRU employee that oversees the justice team. As it is, it takes a team of players to handle everything.

The rules also need to be changed. A toggle filter would be a good start, but even then there are people who will filter skip. If a customer doesn't want to be cursed at or be abused by another customer, they shouldn't be. It's that simple. This is where a player justice team would be useful. Rather than outright jailing they can receive warnings. If the player continues to be an ass take their sage, silence them, whatever needs to be done to get the point across that their behavior towards the other players is unacceptable.

Insta-jailings are also stupid. Sometimes people do stupid things. Why take their gameplay away from it if it's an isolated incident?

*My* major concern is Wony's post regarding the bannings. Yes, ban cheaters. But you are running a company. If you want to start advertising like you claim you do, you can't be going on a tirade and calling your customers filth and scum. Remove their access, but be professional about it. Resorting to an insulting, inflammatory post like that only encourages players to participate in vigilante justice and start harassing others.


This seems reasonable, and actually makes a lot of sense. If they removed the brandings and marks from jailing, and stopped having a system where something that can effect everything you can do on a character afterward, that would solve a lot.

You could still keep same manner of player run justice, to deal with day to day nonsense that may find it's way through the new profanity filters or ignore systems. But I think a system that went more to the style of what the Angels purpose originally was; deal with player interactions. Give them powers that don't give brandings, strip karma, or any of that other nonsense, but maybe remove their ability to sage for "x" amount of time, when the situation calls for it. Or puts them in a jail like situation, "time out", but has no branding or other associated penalties. Force them to do some boring, mundane task until they get their release, and they can't get out until they complete it. It's the equivalent of a teacher telling a kid to write on the board during detention. It'd work, and it doesn't give the power of irrevocably altering a person gameplay over to players, who may or may not actually have any integrity.
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Vini
post Jun 22 2016, 05:48 PM
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QUOTE (Krmit @ Jun 22 2016, 02:06 PM) *
This post will probably get deleted but if you want one character name that epitomizes the word corrupt, and the reason behind all of my brandings.

Rowann

Have a great day.

Why would your post be deleted?
I do think bringing up a person who haven't played in over 10 years isn't adding much, but if every post pointing fingers at others were deleted, this topic would surely doesn't exist. Either way, is not like I disagree with you, but bringing someone up from such a long time ago and she isn't even around to defend herself, I think it's not necessary, but delete it? No. we're not here to censor opinions, only to make sure Nexus Forums remains civilized and respects URL Laws of NexusTK.

QUOTE (Loxie @ Jun 22 2016, 02:52 PM) *
*My* major concern is Wony's post regarding the bannings. Yes, ban cheaters. But you are running a company. If you want to start advertising like you claim you do, you can't be going on a tirade and calling your customers filth and scum. Remove their access, but be professional about it. Resorting to an insulting, inflammatory post like that only encourages players to participate in vigilante justice and start harassing others.


I never liked the idea of "Scum" board being called "Scum" board. Yes, there are few people could probably deserve being called "scum", but the vast majority of people who get arrested aren't "scum". I think I suggested multiple times that the board gets a name change someday.


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Brant
post Jun 22 2016, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 22 2016, 03:26 PM) *
I don't really know how things work in the archon level, but I -presume- it would be the same, but you're right I can't confirm if they do or not. From what I saw of Alilolelotte she cares a lot about making things right, so I think if situations like that come to her attention she reviews it. I also -presume- Alilolelotte gets around 30-50 nmails daily which sort of would be a reason she can't respond to all, but she does pay attention to everything going on.


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Krmit
post Jun 22 2016, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 22 2016, 06:48 PM) *
Why would your post be deleted?
I do think bringing up a person who haven't played in over 10 years isn't adding much, but if every post pointing fingers at others were deleted, this topic would surely doesn't exist. Either way, is not like I disagree with you, but bringing someone up from such a long time ago and she isn't even around to defend herself, I think it's not necessary, but delete it? No. we're not here to censor opinions, only to make sure Nexus Forums remains civilized and respects URL Laws of NexusTK.



I never liked the idea of "Scum" board being called "Scum" board. Yes, there are few people could probably deserve being called "scum", but the vast majority of people who get arrested aren't "scum". I think I suggested multiple times that the board gets a name change someday.


Another mod has deleted posts of mine that made reference to Rowann and Iudicum in the past.

A quick gengiworks google search can give everyone the info they need on the whole thing anyway. And yes that had to be like 14+ years ago.

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