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> Jail system, What did Wony mean
darkmaverick
post Jun 20 2016, 11:03 PM
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Wony said he wanted to look into changes to the jailing system.

Honestly, he should just eliminate it. Terrag recently posted he was going to start enforcing the rules harsher than the past, and start jailing people for so much as taunting others in Sire pit.

http://boards.nexustk.com/Community/Teragg06141654.html

It's time to reverse this trend. While jailings are still a probability for outright profanity, sexual references, racism and drugs, the tolerance will tighten up a lot for those sages that skirt the boundries, leaving no doubt what is meant, is implied, but not really said. Enough is enough.....

I dont know how else to put it.... those involved know they are pushing the limits, and push more and more. Well, Justice is pushing back.

To repeat:
No more Sire pit taunts-use whispers, speak it outloud in sire, or say nothing.
No more insults to players or organizations.
Absolutely no more sexual innuendos. Dont get cute, it wont cut it anymore.



It's very clear that people like Teragg have no business being placed in charge of the enforcement of game rules. In the real world, a system of fair justice has judicial review and people have a right to due process. People can appeal to higher courts if they feel decisions were incorrect. None of this exists in Nexus, even though jailings utterly ruin your ability to play the game. Now he's literally saying even if you don't literally break a rule, if he decides you were close enough to his personal interpretation of rule breaking, he's going to jail you.

With the examples he's given, he's literally talking about players going into a PVP arena and jailing them for trash talking each other. That's never going to end, that's precisely what players do when they get heated in PVP battles.

Simply saying something like this shows Teragg does not have sound judgement for the responsibility he has.

NexusTK "justice" is really just a kangaroo court where the "Judges" routinely interpret the rules very loosely so they can ruin the gameplay of those they personally dislike. This is how I got jailed for merely saying I was playing while drunk IRL, Marama (Sarina) claiming that I was breaking the rules about talking about drug usage. This of course ignoring the fact the game has wine, beer and herb pipes, and literally a status effect called 'Drunk'. The fact of the matter is she was just looking for something to jail me for because she was upset that I frequently posted that the Archon system should be ended because Archons like her were abusing their positions to harass players they didn't like -- which is an absolutely true fact.

What Terrag is saying is exactly the same kind of loose interpretation of rules designed to justify the jailing of people he doesn't like, even if they aren't breaking the stated rules. And that is not justice, it's just tyranny. I experienced it, as have many other players.

In NexusTK you get jailed because some player paying $9.99 a month from their home computer has arbitrarily decided you broke a rule.

It's useless to try to reason with guys like Teragg. I distinctly remember having many a conversation with him about the abuses of the system and question how harmful it really is for people to disagree with each other, and why people don't just use the ignore list option. The fact of the matter is players like Teragg have wrapped their personal identities up into their positions as "Judges" in a videogame, and stress the importance of this system not because of any actual value it provides the game community but rather for the value it awards themselves.

I say to Wony:

-Get rid of the justice system completely.

-Delete all existing justice brands from player's legends.

-Implement a better profanity filter and add more slots to the ignore list.

-If someone has broken the terms of service and engaged in behavior like hacking and botting, then ban them.

-Hire actual people who work in your offices to receive reports of harassment and if someone has truly done something so severe a punishment is necessary, then suspend their account for a week or something like every other MMO does.

Until you do this, you will not get a lot of us veterans to return to the game and you certainly won't retain new blood.

I don't think people should harass other players, but I also know the player-ran Justice system in the hands of Judges and Archons has been greatly misused because they bend the rules to justify the jailing of players they have personal beef with. Get rid of the entire system and delete all the marks. It's long overdue for removal.

Give players the tools to ignore people who say mean things in chat and have your staff deal with the cheaters. That's all that is needed. Games with vastly larger populations of players manage quite well without recruiting other players to be judge and jury.

PS: Why is death by warping still a thing? http://boards.nexustk.com/Community/Alilol...2005281549.html

Hello everyone,

DO NOT summon players onto tile that will suck them into Manchuria. Doing so WILL get you a Serious Other Jailing regardless whether player is killed or not; this is an attempted murder.


Also, for your own safety everyone, please remember to have your group OFF while you are in an area that allows summon.


Here's another simple fix that doesn't need to be dealt with by Archons and Judges; if someone casts Summon on someone, create a popup that asks the player if they want to be summoned, and require them to type "YES" into the box or they don't get summoned!

You know, like it works in every other MMO?

I swear, NexusTK has no need for the justice system if you'd just fix all these idiotic [Content removed]ing things about it that individually can be addressed in a couple freakin minutes. How hard is it to make a confirmation window? It's not. You know it and I know it.

Fix your damn game. Something this obviously critical to address should not still be happening for a decade. The only excuse is gross incompetence on behalf of the people you hire as GMs.


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BeReal
post Jun 21 2016, 08:40 AM
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Completely agree with all points.

Listen - make an optional curse filter like every other game in the universe. If someone harasses or speaks poorly enough of a person and it truly upsets them USE THE GOD DAMN F9 Feature, that's what it's for.

I used to be in the pk scene - I used to trash talk and had trash talk directed towards me, it actually made the game more interesting and fun for me hearing the completely ignorant things people had to say, it was comical.

However the only difference I see with Nexus as opposed to other games when it comes to this is that the player base is so small that everyone knows about everyone elses personal details but if someone is going to go there you're not going to stop them from it.

The justice system does need to go though, putting the power into the player base has always been an awful idea.
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Krmit
post Jun 21 2016, 09:03 AM
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Back in the day you actually got a trial in Nexustk court and judges/constables actually would sage for juries.

Now its a one man show. I have several brandings that i want removed that were all corrupt arrests but ive had several posts deleted here for even mentioning the name of the person that did it.
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Musoyan
post Jun 21 2016, 09:47 AM
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The justice system has been one of the factors of this games demise. People like Teragg are not unbiased, and putting other players in charge of a group of paying customers is ridiculous.
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Songa
post Jun 21 2016, 11:15 AM
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Let's be honest here, it's not just the Justice System. It's every system in the game. If someone who holds a position decides to be a whiny baby and that they don't like you, they can make your gameplay experience unfair. Nobody can be neutral in a situation like that. If someone you trust tells you that PersonX is a troublemaker, you are inclined to believe them, even if PersonX isn't.

The truth of the matter is that the people who hold these positions are the breadwinners. To remove these systems would make them upset and they would most likely leave the game. Is KRU really willing to take that risk?
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Bucky
post Jun 21 2016, 12:10 PM
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The funniest part about players jailing others ..is that is actually against the ToS.

3. Imprison, detain or abuse another player without the other player's explicit consent.


I know Kru gave them the power to do so, but they never changed the terms of service to reflect this.
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darkmaverick
post Jun 21 2016, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (Songa @ Jun 21 2016, 11:15 AM) *
The truth of the matter is that the people who hold these positions are the breadwinners. To remove these systems would make them upset and they would most likely leave the game. Is KRU really willing to take that risk?


That same argument can be made to the botters and dupers, really.

I look at NexusTK as the MMO equilivent of Flint, Michigan. The vast majority of its userbase has left the game because the game was so badly mismanaged for years that any sane person left. All that remains is...

....the corrupt officials who continue to mismanage.
....cheaters and trolls who thrive under this mismanagement.

Just like the city of Flint, Michigan, NexusTK can't thrive while these two groups run rampant. Normal players don't want to deal with them.

The Judges and Archons in charge of the Justice system are as equally awful as the botters, dupers and trolls. Hell, I even regard them as a kind of elevated troll. Their activities are different, but they have a lot in common with each other; they both get off on ruining the gameplay experience of other players and self-justify their trolling by subscribing to a twisted moral code that deludes them into thinking their behavior is noble and justified.

The only difference is the Judges and Archons are charismatic narcissistics who were skillful at securing administrative roles from the GM team, and the latter category of trolls only lacks the social skills to be the former.


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Vini
post Jun 21 2016, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 20 2016, 09:03 PM) *
It's very clear that people like Teragg have no business being placed in charge of the enforcement of game rules.


Who made you the expert of justice? Do you have a degree in law irl? How well do you know Teragg to make a claim like that? This is a very frivolous comment on your part.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 20 2016, 09:03 PM) *
In the real world, a system of fair justice has judicial review and people have a right to due process. People can appeal to higher courts if they feel decisions were incorrect. None of this exists in Nexus, even though jailings utterly ruin your ability to play the game.

This shows how ignorant you are about Nexus justice and about Nexus over all. You just complain without basis, because you haven't actually played in years.
In Nexus people HAS the right to appeal to a higher level if they want to contest a verdict. I explain this to every defendant and/or plaintiff who contests any verdict I give. People in cases handled by a judge can appeal to Head Judge. In cases handled by Head Judge, they can appeal to Archon of Justice, in cases handled by archons can appeal to Archon Primogens, and if the cases were handled by Archon Primogen it can be appealed to KRU. Can't skip the chain of command and go straight to KRU if your case is handled by a judge.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 20 2016, 09:03 PM) *
Now he's literally saying even if you don't literally break a rule, if he decides you were close enough to his personal interpretation of rule breaking, he's going to jail you.

Stop inventing stuff about what he wrote DarkMaverick. What he said is: if you break share wisdom laws in those cases judges won't keep just warning and warning anymore, there won't be leniency on such cases of serious abuse. He basically said that the strategy of trying to teach people with whispers, warnings etc wasn't giving enough results, so sadly more strict measures will be done IF person is breaking law.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 20 2016, 09:03 PM) *
In NexusTK you get jailed because some player paying $9.99 a month from their home computer has arbitrarily decided you broke a rule.

You talk like if judges jailing hundreds of people out of their own will. First of learn about nexus justice before you decide to criticize it. You know nothing DarkMaverick.
The main principle of justice is: everyone is innocent unless proven guilty. To jail someone it is required proof. And judges consult with each other in cases to help find the best verdicts. So it isn't 1 man arbitrator's decisions putting people in jail. Don't assume Nexus Justice is being run like you would be doing if you were a judge or head judge. Not everyone is like you DM.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 20 2016, 09:03 PM) *
It's useless to try to reason with guys like Teragg.

I think it's useless to try to reason why guys like you, who think: "my baseless opinion is right, everyone else is wrong". You have no idea what is going on, but keep trying to force your opinion upon others with long texts which no one reads because they don't care about what you think.
Teragg is far from being perfect man, but at least he admits it. I've been Teragg admitting mistake multiple times. I've done mistakes too and I admitted and worked to fix it. Tip admitted his mistakes, anyone can do mistakes. But not you DarkMaverick, you are perfect! You don't ever admit mistakes because you never did any in first place. You sound like a mini-apprentice of Donald Trump, but without the money or success to back you up on any of your "expert claims".


QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 20 2016, 09:03 PM) *
Fix your damn game. Something this obviously critical to address should not still be happening for a decade. The only excuse is gross incompetence on behalf of the people you hire as GMs.


Also, it's too easy to say "Fix your damn game" to Wony while you just point the flaws and don't work to be part of the solution. You think sitting your butt in your chair writing pages and pages of flaws is helping out, you are very well mistaken. Since you claim to be an expert of MMORPG why don't you do this then:
- Use your personal money or get a loan to open your own videogame company
- Create your own unique game system, hire your own staff, sign your own contracts, advertise your own game
- If you do that and have more success that nexus, come back here and slap me in the face, but until then shut up!

Do that, be more successful than a man who kept this company alive for over 18 years, against all odds, because he loves Nexus too much to close it even if it's not giving the profit he would dream of. Was he late in seeing how bad things turned for Nexus? Yes. But at least he is man enough to admit his mistakes and try to move on from there. His attitude is one worthy of respect, yours is worthy of pity.

P.S. Your so beloved Final Fantasy, benchmark of all the good and stuff, with thousands of staff members, a millionaire budget, shut their mmorpg doors twice (XI and first version of XIV) due to lack of competence while nexus remained here this whole time and is the longest running MMORPG ever.


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Brant
post Jun 21 2016, 04:15 PM
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Justice department just needs to be axed. It's lost it's purpose and the people running it are delusional.

I've been critical of Teragg for years because he doesn't actually play the game. He logs in and moderates players; same could be said about most of the Justice department and Archons for that matter.

I realize with such a small pool of players left it can be tough, but they need to have someone holding Archons accountable for the responsibilities they have if they want to continue to utilize them.
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SetYu
post Jun 21 2016, 05:45 PM
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Although I somewhat contribute my ability to type quickly and somewhat efficiently to my jailing sentence (jailed once for bypassing the filter to say a curse word when I was 12 and super cool), I do think that the system is outdated. Most games these days simply have a profanity filter, and I thought that was plenty good enough. There are a couple of reasons where I think the justice system could still be used (continued harassment after F9, being overly offensive for the sake of being offensive, etc.) but the game could use looser reigns in other areas.
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SetYu
post Jun 21 2016, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 21 2016, 04:07 PM) *
P.S. Your so beloved Final Fantasy, benchmark of all the good and stuff, with thousands of staff members, a millionaire budget, shut their mmorpg doors twice (XI and first version of XIV) due to lack of competence while nexus remained here this whole time and is the longest running MMORPG ever.


Square Enix took a much shorter time to realize their game was a potato, and their solution was actually quite good (and fast) considering all that took place. They created a solid storyline to end the first game (literally blew up that world) and created the much improved FFXIV we know today in, what, a year or so? Pretty impressive on their part, I think. Also, FFXI still runs on PC, and I believe they're planning a port to mobile soon. Nexus has been running, but primarily on life support for several years now. SE essentially already did what Nexus is doing now, but decided to go about it in a different way (and, again, in much quicker fashion).
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Mazel
post Jun 21 2016, 08:27 PM
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I wish complaining was a jailable offense.


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darkmaverick
post Jun 21 2016, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 21 2016, 04:07 PM) *
Who made you the expert of justice? Do you have a degree in law irl? How well do you know Teragg to make a claim like that? This is a very frivolous comment on your part.


1. I did in fact take legal courses in college. Furthermore given my occupation as an entertainment exec (my last gig having been the VP of the TV division of a Los Angeles film studio) I'm pretty knowledgeable about a variety of legal principles since my job involved contract negotiations which needed to comply with the law.

2. I had enough past interactions with Teragg in-game to know his personality hasn't changed, especially if he's making posts such as I linked above.

QUOTE
This shows how ignorant you are about Nexus justice and about Nexus over all. You just complain without basis, because you haven't actually played in years.
In Nexus people HAS the right to appeal to a higher level if they want to contest a verdict.


Appealing to head judge Teragg or Mr. Anonymous Archon Player is not anything at all like appealing to a higher court in the real world. The members of the higher courts don't directly work with the lower courts, and they have no relationship with the appellant and the lower court officials. There is impartiality.

There's no such thing in a videogame of a few hundred players who all know each other, and participate in everything from PvE to PvP events. Who belong to different clans, subpaths and etc.

QUOTE
I explain this to every defendant and/or plaintiff who contests any verdict I give. People in cases handled by a judge can appeal to Head Judge. In cases handled by Head Judge, they can appeal to Archon of Justice, in cases handled by archons can appeal to Archon Primogens, and if the cases were handled by Archon Primogen it can be appealed to KRU. Can't skip the chain of command and go straight to KRU if your case is handled by a judge.


Again, Teragg and Mr. Anonymous Archon are who you appeal to. That's utterly bias.

QUOTE
Stop inventing stuff about what he wrote DarkMaverick. What he said is: if you break share wisdom laws in those cases judges won't keep just warning and warning anymore, there won't be leniency on such cases of serious abuse. He basically said that the strategy of trying to teach people with whispers, warnings etc wasn't giving enough results, so sadly more strict measures will be done IF person is breaking law.


I didn't invent anything.

He literally said,

...the tolerance will tighten up a lot for those sages that skirt the boundries, leaving no doubt what is meant, is implied, but not really said.
"

"Implied" is key here. Deciding what is implied is not an impartial decision, it is a highly subjective one.

I said I was drunk, and Sarina decided that because alcohol is a drug it should be handled the same as an illegal drug and I was jailed. That's what subjectivity causes. That's what has been happening in NexustK for 18 years.

QUOTE
You talk like if judges jailing hundreds of people out of their own will. First of learn about nexus justice before you decide to criticize it. You know nothing DarkMaverick.


I know that I have personally had my character jailed for things that do not violate the terms of service nor the written rules, and to justify it they pointed to rules like http://boards.nexustk.com/Law/Maiyu02190144.html 4. Conversations about illegal drugs and/or drug taking. This indeed happened, regardless of whether you want to accept that it happened.

Sarina had me jailed because I said I was drunk. That's not fantasy, that's reality. Tons of players have been jailed under similar conditions -- hell, the reason I drew her ire (and why I was actually jailed) was because I had been posting that Archons needed to be removed because they were sitting in the groves arbitrarily jailing players they didn't like for "serious other" and claiming they were botting when all those players had done is just enter the damn grove. Do you remember that incident, or have you blocked it out of your mind because it conflicts with your viewpoint?

I remember that when the player ire against Archons got to its boiling point, KRU pretended to fire all the current Archons and replace them with new ones. But they didn't replace anyone ,and it wasn't until Sarina died and they wanted to do a big memorial for her that they finally admitted to the players they had lied to us about replacing the old Archons for abusing their positions.

I have not forgotten this stuff. The vast majority of old players have not forgotten it either, which is why we don't play NexusTK anymore.

I remember someone getting jailed because he joked about clubbing baby seals. I remember solman got jailed because he engraved a fan for someone with the name 'Gull's toe'. There's years of stupid nonsense like this which you know damn well occurred and burying your head in the sand to pretend these abuses have not happened and aren't continuing to happen is a contributing factor to why this ancient MMO has 257 active users right now.

Don't even compare NexusTK to an MMO that has millions of subscribers and try to act like money is the reason they are doing better.

The unwillingness to spend 5 minutes making a confirmation window so people don't get summoned into a terribly designed PVP map that shouldn't exist to begin with is why the game has the issues that it does.

You want to compare NexusTK to another MMO of its age? Let's talk about Ultima Online and it's 50,000 subscribers then. Lineage servers still attract around 10,000 people each. Why is it that these other MMOs nearly as old as NexusTK have thousands of times more players? My conclusion is because NexusTK has been grossly mismanaged and this is based on the existence of numerous bad game design choices as I have elaborated on at length in prior posts.

At some point you're going to have to admit the game has been disastrously mismanaged and the player-ran Justice system is part of this mismanagement.

Also, don't accuse me of not being part of the "solution". Giving detailed feedback on precisely what is driving people away from NexusTK and how to adjust the game so this doesn't happen anymore is the most I can contribute since I don't run the game.

If anything Vini, you can be part of the solution, too. Right now you're not. By asking Wony to get rid of the Justice system while he's actually paying attention to the game for a change, you can help.

Or you can keep burying your head in the sand until the handful of the game veteran players who have enshrouded their real life identities into their virtual personas and positions they hold, literally all die off IRL which will eventually cause the game to close due to lack of revenue.

Because that's the inevitable reality for NexusTK if it remains the way it is rather than adapting to the times. The game dying off as the aging population of players does. It's already been happening.

QUOTE
The main principle of justice is: everyone is innocent unless proven guilty. To jail someone it is required proof. And judges consult with each other in cases to help find the best verdicts. So it isn't 1 man arbitrator's decisions putting people in jail. Don't assume Nexus Justice is being run like you would be doing if you were a judge or head judge. Not everyone is like you DM.


I wouldn't be the head judge. Why would I administrate a system I don't believe in?

If I was GM I would shut the entire justice system down within the first hour of taking reigns over the game. It'd literally be the first change I made.

People cursing at each other in-game is such a non-issue, and all the ways people can actually cause harm to other players like the summon abuse can be addressed with minor changes to the mechanics of these abilities and not doing absolutely stupid things like making a PVP map where people's items break.


QUOTE
Also, it's too easy to say "Fix your damn game" to Wony while you just point the flaws and don't work to be part of the solution. You think sitting your butt in your chair writing pages and pages of flaws is helping out, you are very well mistaken. Since you claim to be an expert of MMORPG why don't you do this then:
- Use your personal money or get a loan to open your own videogame company
- Create your own unique game system, hire your own staff, sign your own contracts, advertise your own game
- If you do that and have more success that nexus, come back here and slap me in the face, but until then shut up!


If I develop an MMO it'll be done in a financially sound way using an established IP that will guarantee media and customer interest. It won't be haphazardly done just to win a forum debate with you.

As I don't have such an IP and I have great reluctance to chase my tail for months and tear out my hair dealing with IP owners on such a contract, don't expect to see this anytime soon.

It doesn't detract from the arguments I make at all. My arguments are based on deductive reasoning (for example, that you don't need a player police force to jail others for abusing the Summon spell if the Summon spell can't be abused in the first place!).

I loved NexusTK not for its mechanics, but the community I was part of. But that community don't exist anymore. The vast majority of those people are gone. I get nostalgic about this game ,and consider re-regging but I talk myself out of it because I don't want to send the wrong message to KRU. I don't want to give them any money when they haven't addressed any of the problems for why I left in the first place. I respect that Wony has added some new stuff, and that some of it is good, but there is a scale of bad and good.

Between a scale of bad that ranks between 1 to 10, needing to spam Sage and ask random people to hunt ranks about a 4.

Getting jailed by some [Content removed] who stalks you around invisible and reads through every board post you make looking for something to jail you for ranks at a 10.

Wony wants to prove he's serious about reviving this game? He should throw out the Justice system and grant amnesty to all of the victims jailed for stupid nonsense -- which is the vast majority of the jailings.

How do I know its stupid nonsense? Because that's what the law board is full of. Everything from discussing the player identities of Archons to not being allowed to complain about the game using Sage is utterly ridiculous to be jailing players for when jailing means denial of the ability to gain hunting spells via San trial completion, being kicked out of subpaths and guilds, and having to type sentences into a popup window for hours and hours.

The vast majority of the "laws" of this game do not exist to help the community of players. They exist to protect the status quo of players in official positions, and give them justification to jail those players they don't like and keep the rest fearful of them. The laws serve no other purpose.

A better profanity filter, a longer ignore list and GMs to deal with the cheaters is all that is necessary. The Justice System doesn't need to exist.


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And my top picks for Sa san warrior shield were......

...I totally want that sword too.
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Vini
post Jun 22 2016, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
1. I did in fact take legal courses in college.

Taking legal courses in college is one thing. Being a lawyer/judge/law expert irl is different. Most professions require to take law courses related to their field of work.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
Furthermore given my occupation as an entertainment exec (my last gig having been the VP of the TV division of a Los Angeles film studio) I'm pretty knowledgeable about a variety of legal principles since my job involved contract negotiations which needed to comply with the law.

Knowing about contracts is one thing. Knowing about laws, justice system, first instance, second instance, how procedures are held, is completely other thing. You're pratically saying in an example close to your work field: "oh, I know how do operate cameras, so I know how TV works". Those are WAY different things.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
2. I had enough past interactions with Teragg in-game to know his personality hasn't changed, especially if he's making posts such as I linked above.

I have interactions with Teragg almost daily. I may not agree 100% with everything he does, but he is one of the person I trust most in Nexus and I trust his intentions on everything he does. It's no coincidence Teragg was the first person I trained to be judge, no coincidence he became Head Judge when I left. I think he is a great head judge, has a great patience dealing with people and is quite impartial. In my personal opinion is much better Head Judge that I ever was.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
Appealing to head judge Teragg or Mr. Anonymous Archon Player is not anything at all like appealing to a higher court in the real world. The members of the higher courts don't directly work with the lower courts, and they have no relationship with the appellant and the lower court officials. There is impartiality.

Of course it's not the same. You're comparing a game with 1000 people max, to a country with 320 million people. In real life there are dozens and dozens more laws, there are lawyers, prosecutors and a long trial. In real life there are trial by jury too, which in some cases allow people who the jury THINKS is guilty to get jailed and we all know many mistakes have been done in trial by jury and even on non-jury cases, with fake evidences planted for proof. In Nexus if anyone tries to fake an evidence the logs can show it's fake and the person who faked it gets jailed. In this way Nexus justice works better than real life, since it allows easily to know if the person really broke the law or not.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
I didn't invent anything.

He literally said,

...the tolerance will tighten up a lot for those sages that skirt the boundries, leaving no doubt what is meant, is implied, but not really said.
"

"Implied" is key here. Deciding what is implied is not an impartial decision, it is a highly subjective one.

You skipped the part where he said "leaving no doubt what is meant.


QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
I said I was drunk, and Sarina decided that because alcohol is a drug it should be handled the same as an illegal drug and I was jailed. That's what subjectivity causes. That's what has been happening in NexustK for 18 years.

I know that I have personally had my character jailed for things that do not violate the terms of service nor the written rules, and to justify it they pointed to rules like http://boards.nexustk.com/Law/Maiyu02190144.html 4. Conversations about illegal drugs and/or drug taking. This indeed happened, regardless of whether you want to accept that it happened.

Sarina had me jailed because I said I was drunk. That's not fantasy, that's reality.

There seems to be some sort of fantasy in your statement at minimum. Saying someone is drunk isn't generally jailable and Sarina was never a judge, so she couldn't have jailed anyone. Are you perhaps confusing her with someone else? Her husband Tip maybe?

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
Tons of players have been jailed under similar conditions -- hell, the reason I drew her ire (and why I was actually jailed) was because I had been posting that Archons needed to be removed because they were sitting in the groves arbitrarily jailing players they didn't like for "serious other" and claiming they were botting when all those players had done is just enter the damn grove. Do you remember that incident, or have you blocked it out of your mind because it conflicts with your viewpoint?

I apologize. I honestly don't remember your jailing at all or why it happened. I only take records of cases handled by me. Those I can check all the records since 2005.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
I remember that when the player ire against Archons got to its boiling point, KRU pretended to fire all the current Archons and replace them with new ones. But they didn't replace anyone ,and it wasn't until Sarina died and they wanted to do a big memorial for her that they finally admitted to the players they had lied to us about replacing the old Archons for abusing their positions.

I have not forgotten this stuff. The vast majority of old players have not forgotten it either, which is why we don't play NexusTK anymore.

I remember someone getting jailed because he joked about clubbing baby seals. I remember solman got jailed because he engraved a fan for someone with the name 'Gull's toe'. There's years of stupid nonsense like this which you know damn well occurred and burying your head in the sand to pretend these abuses have not happened and aren't continuing to happen is a contributing factor to why this ancient MMO has 257 active users right now.


Abuses have happened in almost every organization of the world. It doesn't mean the organization is bad, it means the person abused the position they had. I know there have been bad judges in the early days, and bad archons. I know of judges and of archons who have been jailed. But you can't generalize a whole system because of bad apples. You still sound like Donald Trump blaiming all mexicans for some drug dealers, or blaming a whole religions because of some fanatic assassins who pretend to do it in name of God while they're doing because they are crazy monsters and had been brain washed.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
Don't even compare NexusTK to an MMO that has millions of subscribers and try to act like money is the reason they are doing better.

You're the one who keep comparing Nexus to other games you think are better. I still can't understand why you're not on Final Fantasy or WoW forums then if you love them so much and hates everything about nexus. You're unable to say one good thing about Nexus, but keeps coming here daily.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
You want to compare NexusTK to another MMO of its age? Let's talk about Ultima Online and it's 50,000 subscribers then. Lineage servers still attract around 10,000 people each. Why is it that these other MMOs nearly as old as NexusTK have thousands of times more players? My conclusion is because NexusTK has been grossly mismanaged and this is based on the existence of numerous bad game design choices as I have elaborated on at length in prior posts.

Are you seriously comparing Nexus to Lineage? They shout down their servers in North America permanently. And Ultima is f2p, no?

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
At some point you're going to have to admit the game has been disastrously mismanaged and the player-ran Justice system is part of this mismanagement.

I do admit this game has been mismanaged for many years now, mostly after Mug left. You may not agree with all changes Mug brought, but he was the GM who worked most for the game and brought most new content. Mug was better than Orb who abandoned Nexus for Dark Ages.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
Also, don't accuse me of not being part of the "solution". Giving detailed feedback on precisely what is driving people away from NexusTK and how to adjust the game so this doesn't happen anymore is the most I can contribute since I don't run the game.

If anything Vini, you can be part of the solution, too. Right now you're not. By asking Wony to get rid of the Justice system while he's actually paying attention to the game for a change, you can help.

IF you really wanted to help you would be sending those feedbacks to Wony either by nmail like he asked or by support ticket. Posting whatever you think is right or wrong for the game, without any basis to sustain it after all you haven't played Nexus in YEARS, you pretty much aren't helping, you're just joining the team of trolls who just complain. While you write bunch of stuff none of them read, I tried to call their attention with NA protest, with a complaint early in February and with tickets to them. If I see them doing a mistake I don't go around exposing them like a moron. I go privately and say "look this is out of place, could you fix it". And so far since the new administration arrived, they've sort of been doing. Sadly not all has been done yet, but I think GM Mir is still getting to learn Nexus and they're trying to filter the many people contacting them.

While you are away and just complaining on a forums, I'm here weekly, almost daily trying to help people have fun in the game, bring activity, report news, bringing more information the the site, and also suggesting updates to Law. I didn't begin suggesting updates yesterday, I began over 10 years ago. Too bad it wasn't being listened, now it might be. I think Justice system is needed, I think laws are needed. Without laws we have anarchy, people wouldn't know what are the boundaries of respect towards another player and in chaos this game would succumb within months.

So wake up DarkMaverick. The reality isn't Care Bears cartoon where everyone is nice. There are people who would make the hell of other players if they weren't afraid of being jailed. This happens irl too. People would drink and drive much more if they didn't get afraid of getting jailed for DIU.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
I wouldn't be the head judge. Why would I administrate a system I don't believe in?

You wouldn't be head judge because you're not head judge material. Period. Doesn't matter if you believe in it or not.


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Vini
post Jun 22 2016, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
If I was GM I would shut the entire justice system down within the first hour of taking reigns over the game. It'd literally be the first change I made.

Thanks god you will never be GM of Nexus then. Because if you were you would have to revert this decision within few days after, when you started seeing people quitting due the attack of the trolls and the grievers.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
People cursing at each other in-game is such a non-issue, and all the ways people can actually cause harm to other players like the summon abuse can be addressed with minor changes to the mechanics of these abilities and not doing absolutely stupid things like making a PVP map where people's items break.

If you weren't such a whiny guy and actually paid real attention to what you're complaining about you would notice that being jailed for profanity is very very rare nowadays. People really need to abuse it badly to get that punishment.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
If I develop an MMO it'll be done in a financially sound way using an established IP that will guarantee media and customer interest. It won't be haphazardly done just to win a forum debate with you.

As I don't have such an IP and I have great reluctance to chase my tail for months and tear out my hair dealing with IP owners on such a contract, don't expect to see this anytime soon.

When you create your own game please let us know. Don't forget to invite Wony so he can go and start whining about everything wrong you do, and trust me: you and your staff WILL make mistakes.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
I loved NexusTK not for its mechanics, but the community I was part of. But that community don't exist anymore. The vast majority of those people are gone. I get nostalgic about this game ,and consider re-regging but I talk myself out of it because I don't want to send the wrong message to KRU. I don't want to give them any money when they haven't addressed any of the problems for why I left in the first place.

Man, you really need to make friend in real life. You get nostalgic about a community who don't play nexus anymore, but still come here DAILY to take about a game you dislike the mechanics and dislike the current players. Have you ever considered that your constant whining might be one of the reasons why people don't come back in first place?

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Jun 21 2016, 07:42 PM) *
I respect that Wony has added some new stuff, and that some of it is good, but there is a scale of bad and good.

You should respect Wony for all what he represents. He is a foreigner entrepreneur who is keeping this game alive not because it's making him fortunes, but because he loves it too much and respect its players too much to such it down like all other foreigner versions of Baram did. Wony's Kingdom of Winds has to deal with very limited staff and budget and still somehow managed to survive all these years against all odds. I praise Wony for his courage to do this and praise him for his humility to want to clean years of mistakes and start moving forward again. This new GM Mir is already proving that he wants to do good stuff for the game. His edits are very helpful to gameplay and with the passing of months he'll learn more and more about what to do next. Rome wasn't built in 1 day, and 6 years of no major updates to the game won't be fixed in 2 months.

You claim to have all your knowledge, all your power but you don't have the guts to go and take the risks of opening your own game and enter this very competitive market. You're a brave man DarkMaverick, so go ahead and create your own game, or are all those things you write about easier said than done?


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BeReal
post Jun 22 2016, 07:19 AM
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Sorry Vini but I can't take you seriously when you've got 6 degree's of separation from Teragg.

The justice system is an utter joke. The game needs features and mechanics that prevent the trolls you're talking about.

Don't like what someone is saying to you? F9 them.
Don't like someone summoning you into an area you shouldn't be? Uh, this is on Kru - don't make a map where this is possible.
If anything appoint a GM that is not a playing character to take care of issues occurring during peak play hours (Like World of Warcraft) - Not peers that play the game and pay the same amount of money as everyone else.

Comparing Nexus to Final Fantasy is literally ignorant as hell - Even when it was dying it had 100x the player base, SquareEnix's overhead was probably astronomical compared to NexusTK, comparing the two just seems down right ridiculous.


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post Jun 22 2016, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (BeReal @ Jun 22 2016, 05:19 AM) *
Comparing Nexus to Final Fantasy is literally ignorant as hell - Even when it was dying it had 100x the player base, SquareEnix's overhead was probably astronomical compared to NexusTK, comparing the two just seems down right ridiculous.


I agree, but I'm not the one constantly comparing them. I never even played Final Fantasy MMORPGs to do any kind of comparison. laugh.gif


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post Jun 22 2016, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (Brant @ Jun 21 2016, 05:15 PM) *
Justice department just needs to be axed. It's lost it's purpose and the people running it are delusional.

I've been critical of Teragg for years because he doesn't actually play the game. He logs in and moderates players; same could be said about most of the Justice department and Archons for that matter.

I realize with such a small pool of players left it can be tough, but they need to have someone holding Archons accountable for the responsibilities they have if they want to continue to utilize them.


Justice is a broken system, being used as a weapon not a shield. It isn't even a double-edged shield, it is clearly benefiting certain players over others.

Replace Justice with:

- Profanity filter toggle
- Larger f9 list
- Disable nmails to people who have f9'd you
- You drop it, you lose it law
- Remove Summon spell
- Stop pretending those "timeouts" they give isn't a punishment

There you go, 90% of you the justice cases solved.


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Brancrese
post Jun 22 2016, 09:09 AM
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Didn't read a word of Vini/DM's gripe fest, way too long, and much of the same stuff.

Honestly though, I don't know how anyone can defend a player run justice system. It's quite literally insane for Game Developers to take the playing experience of their paying customers, and place it into the hands of non-staff members who still play the game. It's a complete conflict of interest, in no way, shape, or form, should any player have that kind of power over others.

The Subpath system is bad enough, player run justice is the worst possible thing that could exist. How it's taken so long for them to realize this just astounds me.
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post Jun 22 2016, 09:10 AM
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QUOTE (Vini @ Jun 22 2016, 02:37 AM) *
You should respect Wony for all what he represents. He is a foreigner entrepreneur who is keeping this game alive not because it's making him fortunes, but because he loves it too much and respect its players too much to such it down like all other foreigner versions of Baram did. Wony's Kingdom of Winds has to deal with very limited staff and budget and still somehow managed to survive all these years against all odds. I praise Wony for his courage to do this and praise him for his humility to want to clean years of mistakes and start moving forward again. This new GM Mir is already proving that he wants to do good stuff for the game. His edits are very helpful to gameplay and with the passing of months he'll learn more and more about what to do next. Rome wasn't built in 1 day, and 6 years of no major updates to the game won't be fixed in 2 months.


There is a good case of worship going on here, you should consider a break from the game. You remember this is a game right?


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