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> Captains Theme Halted, Why?
Conro
post Feb 18 2007, 05:26 PM
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This is for discussion of the removal of "Captains" theme in Bloodlusts.


What's your thoughts? Discuss!


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Tynan
post Feb 18 2007, 05:33 PM
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The 'Why?' part is simple - Three decided to make a mockery of it, and the hosts overreacted. I agree Three needed to be punished, for wasting everyone's time, but now everyone is punished.

Snoop just hosted a craptacular BL with some obvious balancing issues - Captains would have done better, I am sure of it.

The funny thing is, the other day he basically bragged on Comm about how he loves Onyon and can balance it. This is how he balanced it:

Onyon + Metora (skilled, but not HUGE in stats) + Kamykaze (skilled, never gets a poet tongue.gif) + Werrty (not a PK warrior) + AznRedTiger (skilled) = winroute (buffest mage) + Subchess (second buffest mage) + KOFighter (best PK warrior in terms of stats and skill) + Bravesoul (buffest rogue there, quite skilled)

That left side is lacking, seriously, by a couple million stat points (and it showed). Onyon cannot balance such a disparity at all. Indeed, even in the first round SubChess was Onyoned very early, and Black still easily won.

Anyway, please, please bring back Captains. Very few Carnage hosts have ever been devout Carnage players, and it shows so very much. sad.gif
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Forum Troll
post Feb 18 2007, 06:17 PM
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Actually I find it quite interesting to see which hosts can and cannot balance, and which ones rely on captains every time to make a successful bloodlust. I think this ban is actually good for right now. The reasons behind it are bad though.
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Moraghul
post Feb 18 2007, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE(Tynan @ Feb 18 2007, 05:33 PM) [snapback]26604[/snapback]

Werrty (not a PK warrior)



rofl.

Werrty is an awesome warrior, not as skilled as Kofighter, that's for sure, but pretty damn skilled who gets TONS of GOOD kills (not ee san mages, but rather buff sam san poet/mages).
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Tynan
post Feb 18 2007, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE(Forum Troll @ Feb 18 2007, 03:17 PM) [snapback]26608[/snapback]

Actually I find it quite interesting to see which hosts can and cannot balance, and which ones rely on captains every time to make a successful bloodlust. I think this ban is actually good for right now. The reasons behind it are bad though.


I do agree with you, actually. I should note that I actually prefer hosts to captains with the right host. It is indeed, as you said, fun to see which hosts are only capable of opening and closing the doors and which ones can indeed balance an event.

Sideline, Drywater, Gimpy, just to name a few (there are more!), can consistently balance a good Carnage/BL (the first two are no longer hosts, the last one seldom hosts Carnages/BLs, which is a shame). Obviously they are not infallible, and it would be silly to ask for that, but many hosts fail at it far too often. I am quite willing to accept a bad event now and then, but when it happens most of the time, I do not keep forgiving.

I prefer hosts, by the way, because Captains makes balance a competition, which is not the best route. However, it is better than hosts who suck at balance.
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Tynan
post Feb 18 2007, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE(Moraghul @ Feb 18 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]26609[/snapback]

rofl.

Werrty is an awesome warrior, not as skilled as Kofighter, that's for sure, but pretty damn skilled who gets TONS of GOOD kills (not ee san mages, but rather buff sam san poet/mages).


Well, I never meant to imply he sucked, by any measure, but for his stats he is at best mediocre to a bit above average. Almost anyone with 2M+ Vitality can make good kills. Hell, I cannot count the number of times I would get big kills, too, if only my Whirlwind was being delivered by 2M Vitality and not 700K Vitality. It is the difference between needing a clean dis/sc and just a dis, or the difference between needing a clean dis/sc and not being able to kill the person at all.

Hance, KOFighter, UCLaser, and BlackSeven, are all better and can influence the outcome quite well (Suwan has been...ineffective since his return). As a warrior it is tough to succeed like others can, but they have good timing and instincts.

This was never meant to be a bash on Werrty, but the fact is he is not in the same league as other PK warriors. KOFighter is just plain amazing, and thus it makes no sense why Black had the best mages and fighters there. Things probably would have been better if KOFighter and Werrty were switched, and Metora and SubChess were switched.

But what would I know, I am not a host.
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Forum Troll
post Feb 18 2007, 07:01 PM
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Il san
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QUOTE
(Suwan has been...ineffective since his return)


That's because when he left he was much higher than everyone vita wise. Now on his return he has to powerhunt a lot more vita to even be considered good.

Hence the name "SuWaN" where he kills people asv. He can't hit a dis sc.
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Falaris
post Feb 18 2007, 09:59 PM
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I'm sorry, but honestly, as I was leaving the game, the carnage department was pretty bad. There are still a few good hosts, but for the most part, I'm not sure why people even bother anymore.

I do want to say, however, it is harder than everyone makes it out to be. I don't know anyone who, when they pulled up that power list for the first time and had to dye everyone by hand, that sat there and thought "Oh, this is going to be easy and go three rounds for sure."

As far as taking Captains away... well, thats a pretty idiotic move. As is a centralized theme in Nexus, punish the many for the actions of a few.


-Falaris

P.S.- Some hosts CAN balance Onyon. What most hosts don't seem to realize is when you dye teams, you should just hand pick the entire team. Often there are people halfway down a list that make differences that they never account for. I by only focusing on the top 4 people or so from each path, they do the carnage a major disservice.


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Mallard
post Feb 18 2007, 10:13 PM
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So who can explain the whole thing with Three, Sindella, whatever is going on because I am missing out big time! I have no access to Nexus right now and I'm just reading the boards haha


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Tynan
post Feb 18 2007, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE
Often there are people halfway down a list that make differences that they never account for. I by only focusing on the top 4 people or so from each path, they do the carnage a major disservice.


I agree. This is most often the case with those 'pesky' il san and ee san poets that often get no recognition.

A dis/sc coming from a weak poet is just as deadly as one coming from a top poet, and these weaker poets often are VERY good at staying alive. A couple of them running around dis/scing tops can be a huge factor, and they often fly under the radar as the opposing team is looking to knock out sams.

As for mages and fighters, some can influence a lot, but since they die so easily (especially mages and warriors) it is not usually the case. Even the best il san mage with great Dozes suffers from being able to be Suwaned, and most weak fighters are just plain ineffective since their attacks are so weak.

Of course, I am speaking in generalities. You never know when an alert, skilled fighter can land that finishing blow on a top, heal out a poet, or knock someone out of Doze.
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Drywater
post Feb 19 2007, 01:06 AM
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Oh how fun it would be to again make carnage teams let alone run carnages entirely. I remember seldom ever hosting a Captains theme--One, because they took forever, and two, because it occasionally made teams very unfair (Some of you remember back to back bloodlusts.. well this was to make up for quick captains themes). I do recall, however, the best Captains match I had ever witnessed in my 6 years as a carnage host. Instead of two captains choosing team mates one by one, competing against each other, the two captains worked together to make even teams. These two captains were Darbac and Jubai. Just imagine for a moment if you will that a carnage hosts has given you complete discretion to build teams--something that has obviously never happened to you before. All I can sum this experience up to is a completely satisfied group of participants, an hour and a half of PK, and one happy head host (me). Anyway, I digress with ancient happy thoughts.

I'm really not understanding the recent ban on the captains theme. For one, I have encountered plenty of situations where Whitelotus, Crip, etc have all taken a stab and botching their team during a captains theme. And for everyone of those situations the player purposely botching the teams was promptly kicked and banned (One of the many offenses that lead to Crip being lifetime banned from carnages). Teams were re-done accordingly. At no time however was the theme banned or otherwise taken away from the players who merely fell victim to it--or rather victim to the unruly player. I just don't understand what can or will be gained for the carnage dept, players or nexus as a whole by removing a feature, in this case Captains, that was abused once. As I outlined above, all that really is required in a case of captains abuse is a quick kick, ban and a re-dye--heck, you can even give the entire bloodlust a free win at the end on account of the time delay/player troubles. If this had been Brants course of action to begin with just think of the player response (or lack there of)--Thank you's instead of fist shaking.

Just two cents from a guy who has been there and done that...

Dry
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Tynan
post Feb 19 2007, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE
Just two cents from a guy who has been there and done that...


And a guy who should still be doing it! I really missed that brief time a few months ago where things were sort of back to normal. Now things have fallen apart, yet again. I really, really loathe Captains every single BL, but I loathe even more horrendous balance every single BL, something that was absent during those couple months you were doing randoms.

I have said it before and I will say it again: I do not care if I lose, so long as it is a good, fun, and fair fight, which requires balance. I of course like to win, but so long as I get to participate in and watch a good battle, I leave very satisfied. This is not happening much as of late.

Thank you to the hosts that do make it happen, though, and hell, thank you even to the hosts who do not - I at least appreciate the fact that someone takes the time to host an event, even if I disagree with the outcome.
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Coolboyman
post Feb 19 2007, 01:54 AM
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Recap of the Bloodlust (Which I hosted):

It was another captains Bloodlust, and it was a nightmare to find 2 captains part of the same path. Eventually I found Three and another top mage. They began picking their choices and once all the choices were picked, Three only had one poet on this team (Red), while the Black captain picked 5 or 6 top poets. Three also snagged all the top fighters, with no poets left to heal them. I got whispers on what I should do, so I felt there was really no choice. I had to bleach everyone and was forced to use auto dye. Keep in mind, i used auto dye thirty minutes after the doors closed.

It just bugs me when people always pressure hosts to do nothing but captains every time, and then we have tops who thinks its funny to delay the Bloodlust for their own amusement. Keep in mind there was about 100 people at my Bloodlust, so Three wasted 30 minutes of about 100 peoples lives.

Even though captains are banned for now, this gives people a chance to try out some themes that haven't been used in a while. I hosted a 4 team 1-98 Bloodlust (thats right) last week just because it wasn't done in a long time and I was tired of captains. The teams turned out as balanced it could be with 22 players (which I balanced out), and I intentionally made it 4 teams for this theme so each team would only have 5 or 6 players. People were questioning my logic, but I told them to give it a try. It went on 3 rounds (Round 2 Blue and White won due to equal participants in cicle). Most people had lots of fun and thanked me for it. A few even thanked me for doing something DIFFERENT than the basic captains 2 team 2/3.

The point is, with these themes we haven't used in a long time - don't knock it until you try it. Give some of the themes a chance. Besides, it'll be March 2nd before you know it.
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Forum Troll
post Feb 19 2007, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE(Coolboyman @ Feb 19 2007, 02:54 AM) [snapback]26642[/snapback]

Recap of the Bloodlust (Which I hosted):

It was another captains Bloodlust, and it was a nightmare to find 2 captains part of the same path. Eventually I found Three and another top mage. They began picking their choices and once all the choices were picked, Three only had one poet on this team (Red), while the Black captain picked 5 or 6 top poets. Three also snagged all the top fighters, with no poets left to heal them. I got whispers on what I should do, so I felt there was really no choice. I had to bleach everyone and was forced to use auto dye. Keep in mind, i used auto dye thirty minutes after the doors closed.

It just bugs me when people always pressure hosts to do nothing but captains every time, and then we have tops who thinks its funny to delay the Bloodlust for their own amusement. Keep in mind there was about 100 people at my Bloodlust, so Three wasted 30 minutes of about 100 peoples lives.

Even though captains are banned for now, this gives people a chance to try out some themes that haven't been used in a while. I hosted a 4 team 1-98 Bloodlust (thats right) last week just because it wasn't done in a long time and I was tired of captains. The teams turned out as balanced it could be with 22 players (which I balanced out), and I intentionally made it 4 teams for this theme so each team would only have 5 or 6 players. People were questioning my logic, but I told them to give it a try. It went on 3 rounds (Round 2 Blue and White won due to equal participants in cicle). Most people had lots of fun and thanked me for it. A few even thanked me for doing something DIFFERENT than the basic captains 2 team 2/3.

The point is, with these themes we haven't used in a long time - don't knock it until you try it. Give some of the themes a chance. Besides, it'll be March 2nd before you know it.


Three picked three poets: Sindella, Spinkns and Halucin.

He would have got A LOT of poets in the auto dye so I'm not really sure if he was intentionally trying to throw this. And no I'm not a supporter of three (he kills me in sire), but the way his team was setup it was 50% throw 50% fun because he only picked one ee san. Whereas if he were intentionally trying to throw he would've picked more lower levels? I'm not really sure if banning him for two weeks was the right answer. Maybe banning him from captain ever again.

Also you didn't answer why the theme was banned. Which is the main reason of this.
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Coolboyman
post Feb 19 2007, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE(Forum Troll @ Feb 19 2007, 01:56 AM) [snapback]26643[/snapback]

Three picked three poets: Sindella, Spinkns and Halucin.

He would have got A LOT of poets in the auto dye so I'm not really sure if he was intentionally trying to throw this. And no I'm not a supporter of three (he kills me in sire), but the way his team was setup it was 50% throw 50% fun because he only picked one ee san. Whereas if he were intentionally trying to throw he would've picked more lower levels? I'm not really sure if banning him for two weeks was the right answer. Maybe banning him from captain ever again.

Also you didn't answer why the theme was banned. Which is the main reason of this.


I'm not the head Bloodlust host, I don't make the decisions on what gets banned, and he'll never be a captain again when I'm hosting.

I encourage everyone to actually read about the other themes Bloodlust has to offer.

http://boards.nexustk.com/Carnage/DethsGift%2008050111.html
http://boards.nexustk.com/Carnage/DethsGift%2008050112.html
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BlackMob
post Feb 19 2007, 02:31 AM
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QUOTE(Tynan @ Feb 18 2007, 02:33 PM) [snapback]26604[/snapback]

The 'Why?' part is simple - Three decided to make a mockery of it, and the hosts overreacted. I agree Three needed to be punished, for wasting everyone's time, but now everyone is punished.

Onyon + Metora (skilled, but not HUGE in stats) + Kamykaze (skilled, never gets a poet tongue.gif) + Werrty (not a PK warrior) + AznRedTiger (skilled) = winroute (buffest mage) + Subchess (second buffest mage) + KOFighter (best PK warrior in terms of stats and skill) + Bravesoul (buffest rogue there, quite skilled)




Metora is very very skilled, KamyKaze is not skilled at all he is the dumbest if not baddest mage to ever play the nexus thats why he never gets a poet, ive never seen Werrty Do much so cant argue there and winroute just has the double macro he doubles basically anything that gets sc'd or pest for that matter no skill there and bravesoul? Skilled? do you even know what your talking about, AznRed is by far most likely the best PK rogue in nexus and hes not even huge alot of people are confused and think Jub is a factor which he is not hes the most overrated rogue ive ever seen he makes Demolish look like a good pk rogue, Subchess gets some good kills but i dont think it has anything to do with skill, yes KOF is the best, as far as the captains thing goes thats retarded. Why was it haulted/removed in the 1st place?
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Drywater
post Feb 19 2007, 03:09 AM
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Thank you for the kind words and encouragement, Tynan <3 It really is players like you who make the hours of selfless devotion that hosts put into the game well worth it.

QUOTE(Forum Troll @ Feb 19 2007, 01:56 AM) [snapback]26643[/snapback]

Three picked three poets: Sindella, Spinkns and Halucin.

He would have got A LOT of poets in the auto dye so I'm not really sure if he was intentionally trying to throw this.


Auto dye does not work this way--Auto dye does not take into account the players that are already dyed. Again, auto dye evenly distributes the players who are NOT DYED without regard of the players who ARE DYED. Also, three couldn't have been anticipating a large number of poets to be auto dyed to him (if it worked that way) because they were already taken... from what I understand he was already choosing random players at that point.

-shrug-
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post Feb 19 2007, 03:49 AM
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herger
post Feb 19 2007, 06:30 AM
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I wonder if anyone got three's take on this. For all we know he could have really picked a competitive team. If he picked 1 poet and 4 of the strongest fighters, while cutetweet picked 5 of the best poets that's really only 4 less poets on the whole red (three's) team. And that's 4 less top fighters on the other path.

In normal situations the 4 top fighters would be worth less than 4 top poets but this bloodlust was held while everyone could use cakes and chocolates.

Someone suggested the dis/sc coming from a little poet is just as deadly as one coming from a top poet, so maybe three thought the little poets he'd get from autodye PLUS the cakes and chocolates could make up for the poet imbalance. Or maybe even be stronger than the other team.

I've been in a lot of bloodlusts where three was also there and he didn't seem like the type to enjoy griefing others like crip and whitelotus. Both the ban on the person and the theme may have been undeserved.
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post Feb 19 2007, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE(herger @ Feb 19 2007, 07:30 AM) [snapback]26655[/snapback]

I wonder if anyone got three's take on this. For all we know he could have really picked a competitive team. If he picked 1 poet and 4 of the strongest fighters, while cutetweet picked 5 of the best poets that's really only 4 less poets on the whole red (three's) team. And that's 4 less top fighters on the other path.

In normal situations the 4 top fighters would be worth less than 4 top poets but this bloodlust was held while everyone could use cakes and chocolates.

Someone suggested the dis/sc coming from a little poet is just as deadly as one coming from a top poet, so maybe three thought the little poets he'd get from autodye PLUS the cakes and chocolates could make up for the poet imbalance. Or maybe even be stronger than the other team.

I've been in a lot of bloodlusts where three was also there and he didn't seem like the type to enjoy griefing others like crip and whitelotus. Both the ban on the person and the theme may have been undeserved.


You know I didn't even think of candies until you just mentioned it. I'm wondering if he thought about that at all. tongue.gif
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