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> Archon Jailing ( Yes/no ? )
MeduLLA
post Feb 8 2010, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (Buddy @ Feb 8 2010, 05:42 PM) *
as far as I know, Archons only currently jail for offenses they witness.



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Muckish
post Feb 9 2010, 01:06 PM
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QUOTE (AllyGator @ Feb 8 2010, 07:47 PM) *
Archons are trained as judges.


It depends on what you mean by "trained as Judges". There are two trainings. The training that is given by Head Judge Teragg who oversees probably 90%+ of Justice in the game and training given by Archons which oversee the rest.

My problem is that the two trainings are not same. "Fairness" requires that those conducting justice act in an as similar manner as possible. So, punishments are similar for similar crimes and the process to have your case reviewed by a superior is the same.

Archons do not recieve the same training as Player Judges, their cases are not reviewed in a similar manner and players have VERY little recourse if they are jailed by an archon rather than a player judge.


Let us compare.

Player Judge:
If one is jailed or under investigation by a Player Judge, we can go to Justice board and see basically what is happening and in many cases we can even WATCH the Judge conduct justice, through Teragg's Observer program. Then, if the defendant disagrees with the Judge or his conduct, he can request a review from the Head Judge and Teragg can decide to open the case and require ALL case files and evidence to be presented before him to review the case. Then he can decide to let the ruling stand or change it. This system is pretty fair, its reasonably open and it provides the defendant with recourse if he feels the Judge acted inappropriately.

Archon Judge:
If one is jailed or under investigation by an archon, they will be tried by an Archon Judge that has not been trained to provide the same treatment as other similar cases. The public will NOT be able to watch the proceedings of their case or the Archon's conduct and the public cannot read about the case on Justice Board, instead the proccedings will be secret. And lastly, if one is jailed by an archon they cannot request the case to be reviewed by Head Judge Teragg. Instead they will need to try to contact the Archon Primarch or Archon Primogen... who are often too busy and do not deal with these cases as often and thus cannot provide the same treatment as others in the justice system.

I just disagree with the fact that we have two Justice Systems that do not provide the same rights and treatment to players.

I think the Head Judges over the last 4-5 years have GREATLY improved our justice system. I think all players should be subject to the SAME judges, who have been trained to conduct justice the SAME way, who are required to communicate to the public on Justice Board the SAME way and can/may be reviewed by their superior in the SAME manner.


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Blackh
post Feb 9 2010, 02:01 PM
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Hell no

After what they did to Gerdi, I already know what's going on with them. They are just odd to me, I asked them once to observe something; "ask a judge." Multiple times I've seen them RUNNING to jail someone else though laugh.gif

I just don't care for nearly everyone on top of the authority line on NTK though, Judge/Archon. Only 1 that I've encountered actually used her sense, instead of pretending What I did was right or wrong.

Because you know, if you apologize, plead, and pretend you're sorry, that makes it all better laugh.gif
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Brant
post Feb 9 2010, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (Blackh @ Feb 9 2010, 01:01 PM) *
Hell no

After what they did to Gerdi, I already know what's going on with them. They are just odd to me, I asked them once to observe something; "ask a judge." Multiple times I've seen them RUNNING to jail someone else though laugh.gif

I just don't care for nearly everyone on top of the authority line on NTK though, Judge/Archon. Only 1 that I've encountered actually used her sense, instead of pretending What I did was right or wrong.

Because you know, if you apologize, plead, and pretend you're sorry, that makes it all better laugh.gif


I agree here. Most Archons probably aren't educated in the Justice System, and even if they were told about it, they still probably don't know all of the laws or understand many of the details of the system.

As Blackh pointed out, (and I too have experienced this) either by lack of motivation and simply being lazy, many Archons tell you to report something to the Judges or make a Justice post. Yet, that Archon has been elected (that mark needs to be changed to appointed judge or kru slave, I prefer the latter) and should know how to deal with issues of Justice.


I've mentioned it so many times now, but seriously, Archons should ONLY BE ABLE TO JAIL PLAYERS FOR USE OF BOTS/3rd Party Programs. Issues concerning EVERYTHING ELSE should be dealt with by Justice vita Justice Board.


-Brant
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MainAttraction
post Feb 9 2010, 08:20 PM
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Just like with all high positions in nexus, it isn't about intelligence, reasoning skills, experience, knowledge and or logic, like you'd expect with a position of power-- what will get you that position is using a ton of emoticons, friending the right people, and being ultimatley "pleasant" in a mature sort of way.

Wouldn't it be funny if the Supreme Court of Canada/US chose its judges like that? I wonder what the world would be like... probably dying, and with lots of kruna crap everywhere.


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Gerdi
post Feb 10 2010, 12:50 AM
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QUOTE (Buddy @ Feb 8 2010, 09:42 PM) *
as far as I know, Archons only currently jail for offenses they witness.



Very untrue -- I got jailed for that whole sire pit ordeal: "Do you feel the same way black people felt when they were able to drink from the same water fountain?" There were no Archons around. I'm convinced that the group of people I said it to had an Archon, logged on it and then attempted to bully me into apologizing for that comment. When I refused (on the basis that I hadn't done/said anything illegal), I was promptly jailed. I went through every single channel I could to get the jailing removed; ticketing, head archon, head judge, etc. But this was during the height of my infamy, and no one would do anything to help me tongue.gif
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Alston
post Feb 15 2010, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE (Gerdi @ Feb 9 2010, 09:50 PM) *
Very untrue -- I got jailed for that whole sire pit ordeal: "Do you feel the same way black people felt when they were able to drink from the same water fountain?" There were no Archons around. I'm convinced that the group of people I said it to had an Archon, logged on it and then attempted to bully me into apologizing for that comment. When I refused (on the basis that I hadn't done/said anything illegal), I was promptly jailed. I went through every single channel I could to get the jailing removed; ticketing, head archon, head judge, etc. But this was during the height of my infamy, and no one would do anything to help me tongue.gif

Archons can go 100% invis (i.e. you wouldn't know they were there unless you were an Archon/GM - even the packets sent to your computer wouldn't indicate their presence). Fact of life. They also can approach with complete stealth, summon themselves onto any tile on any map (whether or not that tile is walkable), and can walk thru walls, unwalkable areas, and even outside of map edges.

Some archons (don't know if GMs still have this ability turned on for them) can see ALL text in the kingdom with a simple flag switch between "LOCAL," (area they're in), "MAP" (everything on the map they're in), and "SERVER" (everywhere on the server), and can see all whispers, shouts, group messages, clan messages, SP messages, etc. with all flags switched on.

An archon could easily have been on another map and noticed your text in sire. Nuff said. They don't have to physically be there, and (most of the time) you would have no way of knowing if they were there to begin with.

As for Archons vs. Judges vs. RL appointed judges... it's all politics. People with more powerful connections get the big jobs, whether they're fully qualified for it or not. It's a fact of life, and Nexus is a big example of how most governmental systems work (with a few differences, of course). Trust me when I say Nexus politics and RL politics have a lot more in common than people give them both credit for.


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Brant
post Feb 15 2010, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (Alston @ Feb 15 2010, 09:12 AM) *
Archons can go 100% invis (i.e. you wouldn't know they were there unless you were an Archon/GM - even the packets sent to your computer wouldn't indicate their presence). Fact of life. They also can approach with complete stealth, summon themselves onto any tile on any map (whether or not that tile is walkable), and can walk thru walls, unwalkable areas, and even outside of map edges.

Some archons (don't know if GMs still have this ability turned on for them) can see ALL text in the kingdom with a simple flag switch between "LOCAL," (area they're in), "MAP" (everything on the map they're in), and "SERVER" (everywhere on the server), and can see all whispers, shouts, group messages, clan messages, SP messages, etc. with all flags switched on.

An archon could easily have been on another map and noticed your text in sire. Nuff said. They don't have to physically be there, and (most of the time) you would have no way of knowing if they were there to begin with.

As for Archons vs. Judges vs. RL appointed judges... it's all politics. People with more powerful connections get the big jobs, whether they're fully qualified for it or not. It's a fact of life, and Nexus is a big example of how most governmental systems work (with a few differences, of course). Trust me when I say Nexus politics and RL politics have a lot more in common than people give them both credit for.


This also includes whispers, so don't think you're safe there.

-Brant
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Gerdi
post Feb 15 2010, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Alston @ Feb 15 2010, 10:12 AM) *
Archons can go 100% invis (i.e. you wouldn't know they were there unless you were an Archon/GM - even the packets sent to your computer wouldn't indicate their presence). Fact of life. They also can approach with complete stealth, summon themselves onto any tile on any map (whether or not that tile is walkable), and can walk thru walls, unwalkable areas, and even outside of map edges.

Some archons (don't know if GMs still have this ability turned on for them) can see ALL text in the kingdom with a simple flag switch between "LOCAL," (area they're in), "MAP" (everything on the map they're in), and "SERVER" (everywhere on the server), and can see all whispers, shouts, group messages, clan messages, SP messages, etc. with all flags switched on.

An archon could easily have been on another map and noticed your text in sire. Nuff said. They don't have to physically be there, and (most of the time) you would have no way of knowing if they were there to begin with.

As for Archons vs. Judges vs. RL appointed judges... it's all politics. People with more powerful connections get the big jobs, whether they're fully qualified for it or not. It's a fact of life, and Nexus is a big example of how most governmental systems work (with a few differences, of course). Trust me when I say Nexus politics and RL politics have a lot more in common than people give them both credit for.


there were no archons there. I was contacted an hour later after the incident had happened.
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ToRaToRa
post Feb 15 2010, 03:34 PM
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I don't mind if GM has the power/ability to do the log check if its proven necessary.

But having an archon/paid customer to have the ability to read other people whisper/group message is outrageous and totally out of the line.

They should respect our Privacy none the less.

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Alston
post Feb 15 2010, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (Brant @ Feb 15 2010, 09:35 AM) *
This also includes whispers, so don't think you're safe there.

-Brant

Forget your reading glasses?

Edit: To elaborate, I had already mentioned that. tongue.gif


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Muckish
post Feb 16 2010, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE (Alston @ Feb 15 2010, 10:12 AM) *
As for Archons vs. Judges vs. RL appointed judges... it's all politics. People with more powerful connections get the big jobs, whether they're fully qualified for it or not. It's a fact of life, and Nexus is a big example of how most governmental systems work (with a few differences, of course). Trust me when I say Nexus politics and RL politics have a lot more in common than people give them both credit for.


Thanks for pointing out the obvious? That is simply what happens in all human communities.

However, I think the bigger issue is the fact that governmental systems in the West do have organisations/regulations which force transparency and some sort of accountability. While Nexus, for the most part does not -- the player base does provide limits to an extent. To the point that we cry and complain when injustices occur force the GM and KRU to attempt to either avoid injustices or keep them well hidden.

However, I choose to support "Appointed Judges" as mechanisms to enforce Nexus Justice, because we know who is appointed and we can use their past as a track record to cause a public outcry and have them removed. Are the Nexus Judges largely unfair or 'corrupt'? No. I think the Justice System today is VASTLY superior to the ones we have seen previous and I give A LOT of credit to our current and recently past Head Judges.

Yet, my problem is the fact that as Archon's identities are hidden due to the kind of service they provide (a service I can understand which demands anonimity), so when Archons do jail --

We have no idea whether that person could/may have been involved in the issue on their mortal.

Thus, it is very difficult for the public to use their only preventative outlet against injustice, because we simply don't know about it. Judges however, would have a MUCH more difficult time of getting away with this.


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Brant
post Feb 16 2010, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE (Muckish @ Feb 16 2010, 12:22 PM) *
Thanks for pointing out the obvious? That is simply what happens in all human communities.

However, I think the bigger issue is the fact that governmental systems in the West do have organisations/regulations which force transparency and some sort of accountability. While Nexus, for the most part does not -- the player base does provide limits to an extent. To the point that we cry and complain when injustices occur force the GM and KRU to attempt to either avoid injustices or keep them well hidden.

However, I choose to support "Appointed Judges" as mechanisms to enforce Nexus Justice, because we know who is appointed and we can use their past as a track record to cause a public outcry and have them removed. Are the Nexus Judges largely unfair or 'corrupt'? No. I think the Justice System today is VASTLY superior to the ones we have seen previous and I give A LOT of credit to our current and recently past Head Judges.

Yet, my problem is the fact that as Archon's identities are hidden due to the kind of service they provide (a service I can understand which demands anonimity), so when Archons do jail --

We have no idea whether that person could/may have been involved in the issue on their mortal.

Thus, it is very difficult for the public to use their only preventative outlet against injustice, because we simply don't know about it. Judges however, would have a MUCH more difficult time of getting away with this.



I think that incorporates everything that people have been saying on this topic for a very long time.

Archons are players too, and they shouldn't be able to hide behind anonymity. These Archons should stick to doing the jobs they are assigned to, none of which is related to jailing players. Even with Habaek as an exception, I could very easily argue that we don't even need a Justice Archon. If anything is questioned about a decision by Teragg, it almost always lands in mug's hands anyway.

I would very much like to see Archons lose their ability to freely jail players while sitting behind a mask. I am almost certain that a few of these current Archons would step down quicker and future players asked to be an immortal would decline the position.

-Brant
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Alston
post Feb 16 2010, 08:04 PM
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Muckish, ever heard of undercover police?

Ever heard of CIA?

Ever heard of FBI?

Look up the practices of these departments... not to mention the Treasury Dept., DHS and IRS.


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Muckish
post Feb 17 2010, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (Alston @ Feb 16 2010, 08:04 PM) *
Muckish, ever heard of undercover police?

Ever heard of CIA?

Ever heard of FBI?

Look up the practices of these departments... not to mention the Treasury Dept., DHS and IRS.


Point taken. However, depsite their appointment practices and the... unique way they collect evidence. They are not permitted to jail person without a trial.

Archons can act as law enforcement, jury and executioner and can do all of this behind a mask. I totally disagree with this.

But like I said, I could accept Archons collecting evidence like the secret law enforcement agencies you mentioned PROVIDING they must submit this evidence to a judge before a person may be jailed.


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JaydePhoenix
post Feb 18 2010, 12:56 AM
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QUOTE (Muckish @ Feb 17 2010, 09:25 AM) *
They are not permitted to jail person without a trial.


I can tell you with complete certainty, this is not entirely true.
I've done it more than once myself, under extenuating circumstances.



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Alston
post Feb 18 2010, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (Muckish @ Feb 17 2010, 10:25 AM) *
Point taken. However, depsite their appointment practices and the... unique way they collect evidence. They are not permitted to jail person without a trial.

Archons can act as law enforcement, jury and executioner and can do all of this behind a mask. I totally disagree with this.

But like I said, I could accept Archons collecting evidence like the secret law enforcement agencies you mentioned PROVIDING they must submit this evidence to a judge before a person may be jailed.

Two words: Guantanamo Bay.

And it's been done before: SS, KGB, Crusades, MacArthur era, etc.

You're naive to think this kind of thing doesn't still happen today, even in America and especially in other countries.

Again, minor differences. For example, I don't know anyone with god-like powers that can hear every conversation in the world simultaniously.


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Blackh
post Feb 19 2010, 08:58 AM
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mug said to me profanity is whispers is fine

So the same day, 5 minutes later actually, I was whispering someone some stupid [Content removed] without filter and I actually whispered mug by mistake

He didn't jail me though thank God laugh.gif
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QuestionMark
post Feb 19 2010, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE (Blackh @ Feb 19 2010, 08:58 AM) *
mug said to me profanity is whispers is fine

So the same day, 5 minutes later actually, I was whispering someone some stupid [Content removed] without filter and I actually whispered mug by mistake

He didn't jail me though thank God laugh.gif


Mug can be pretty cool, sometimes.

If it were a judge you whispered you'd be in jail in less than 20 seconds.
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Blackh
post Feb 19 2010, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE (QuestionMark @ Feb 19 2010, 09:56 AM) *
Mug can be pretty cool, sometimes.

If it were a judge you whispered you'd be in jail in less than 20 seconds.


Of course

sad.gif

Especially with Corruagg
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