Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Nexus Forums _ Community Board _ Chongun Leeching Issue

Posted by: LouisVuitton Apr 21 2013, 09:00 PM

basically guldar said any chongun caught leeching will be kicked out.
my thoughts: he's an idiot. look at people like lepetitchou who has a chongun guide alt but sells leeches..look at Berlin who leeches ALL of her characters with her chongun.. yeah you can go c.ryong but right now when the game only has 250-300 players online max Guldar is being a complete idiot. Hey Guldar, if leeching is sooo bad how about you make a warrior, & try to "hunt" him to rage 5-6 (this is when people will actually let warriors into the group) pants on the head move.

Posted by: Scruffy Apr 21 2013, 09:48 PM

I wouldn't say Guldar is an idiot. As someone that has played as both a Chongun and a Barbarian, both of which have anti-leeching rules, I don't see the issue. This is what they believe is best for the path, the communities view of the path, and the members of the path. I know that, at least for the Barbarians, there have even been recent votes in regards to leeching. Even a majority of the path agreed that they didn't want to be seen as a group of leechers. There were of course people that spoke out otherwise, and made some very good points, but the decision was made to keep the rule the same.

In regards to your final comment: "Hey Guldar, if leeching is sooo bad how about you make a warrior, & try to "hunt" him to rage 5-6."

It's not that bad. Anyone that knew me saw me go from 99-EE san in the matter of 3 days. Admittedly this was during wisdom star, but realistically without wisdom star it may have taken 2-4 weeks, accounting for a reduced number of people hunting. I didn't get leeched. Pre-wisdom star I soloed in rooster 1 constantly. As soon as I could, I soloed in Rooster 2 for hours at a time. Did it suck? Sure it did, but I did it. I spent hours upon hours of saging and grinding, just looking for a hunt that never came.

Leeching is taking the easy route, and these paths probably don't want to be seen as those type of people. I don't believe they are saying leeching is bad for everyone, but they don't want it for their respective paths.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 21 2013, 11:00 PM

QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 21 2013, 09:48 PM) *
It's not that bad. Anyone that knew me saw me go from 99-EE san in the matter of 3 days. Admittedly this was during wisdom star, but realistically without wisdom star it may have taken 2-4 weeks, accounting for a reduced number of people hunting. I didn't get leeched. Pre-wisdom star I soloed in rooster 1 constantly. As soon as I could, I soloed in Rooster 2 for hours at a time. Did it suck? Sure it did, but I did it. I spent hours upon hours of saging and grinding, just looking for a hunt that never came.


Uh, there is no way in the nine hells of Satan you can go from level 99 to Ee San stats by soloing Rooster 1 for 4 weeks.

I know this because BACK IN THE DAY WHEN ALL THIS CRAP ACTUALLY MATTERED, LrdDrkMoon only ever soloed, and like everyone else in the game at the time who was considered a power hunter, he hunted somewhere around 3-4 hours a day.

He is the first one to cast Rage 5 and Rage 6. It took him two years to get there, soloing mythic caves (because that's all there was back then; no vortex, no mug island, no woodlands, etc). You can attempt to argue that there are stronger weapons nowadays, people can get rage easier, etc etc but the spawn rate of mythic caves have not changed so it makes little difference.

As for this anti-leeching rule..........one would think there is bigger issues to focus on, like the lack of players in general.

In all truth, things like Wisdom Stars that allow people to go from 99 to Ee san stats in a weekend ruined the achievements people had previously made in regards to how long it took a player to get stats. DM sat for years in the top #10 of Warriors when I originally quit, and he was just a little over 1 million vita with Rage 6 mana. Now getting those stats is no big accomplishment for new players.

As an oldie who worked his ass off for what were once considered epic stats, I am here to tell you that hunting in Nexus is pretty much impossible to enjoy if you don't have anyone to party with. If you can manage to find fresh blood and get them to want to play this bloody game, I don't see the problem with helping them catch up to you in stats so you can play the game together.

That's just my two-bits though. The Chonguns have long since been a path where the leadership cares more about their personal glory than what is actually good for the community. Though you can say that for most of the subpaths and clans, too.

When I quit Nexus, I played Ragnarok Online for a few years. I helped build an epic PVP super-clan that took over nearly all the castles on the server, and we accomplished it by recruiting people, giving them the best equipment for leveling they could use, and leeching them up the levels. That's the smart thing to do, and maybe if the subpaths like Chonguns helped new recruits level up people would give a [Content removed] about this game again.

QUOTE
Even a majority of the path agreed that they didn't want to be seen as a group of leechers.


Sure, better to be seen as a bunch of self-righteous twats who kick people out of their club if they try to make the game tolerable to new players.

If I had been Elder of the Chonguns I would have organized a Chongun militia and assigned members to units who would hunt together, and rewarded them for doing so. I had a whole system planned out that included requesting special legend marks and items so we could recruit Poets, Rogues, and Mages into the militia units and give them special perks. That's what the Chonguns ought to have done, and I proposed it many, many times but we all know how that scenario with me and them went down.

Posted by: Brant Apr 21 2013, 11:45 PM

I wonder how Guldar's rogue got its stats?

Posted by: Brant Apr 21 2013, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 21 2013, 09:48 PM) *
I wouldn't say Guldar is an idiot. As someone that has played as both a Chongun and a Barbarian, both of which have anti-leeching rules, I don't see the issue. This is what they believe is best for the path, the communities view of the path, and the members of the path. I know that, at least for the Barbarians, there have even been recent votes in regards to leeching. Even a majority of the path agreed that they didn't want to be seen as a group of leechers. There were of course people that spoke out otherwise, and made some very good points, but the decision was made to keep the rule the same.

In regards to your final comment: "Hey Guldar, if leeching is sooo bad how about you make a warrior, & try to "hunt" him to rage 5-6."

It's not that bad. Anyone that knew me saw me go from 99-EE san in the matter of 3 days. Admittedly this was during wisdom star, but realistically without wisdom star it may have taken 2-4 weeks, accounting for a reduced number of people hunting. I didn't get leeched. Pre-wisdom star I soloed in rooster 1 constantly. As soon as I could, I soloed in Rooster 2 for hours at a time. Did it suck? Sure it did, but I did it. I spent hours upon hours of saging and grinding, just looking for a hunt that never came.

Leeching is taking the easy route, and these paths probably don't want to be seen as those type of people. I don't believe they are saying leeching is bad for everyone, but they don't want it for their respective paths.


Leeching the easy route? It's the smart route.

Hard to believe anyone on Nexus has time for a real life, but there are a few of us!

Leeching is the only thing keeping the newer/low level players around. It's damn near impossible to find a hunt these days unless you have friends with characters at the same level/stats or you stand around saging for hours trying to get a group.

I sat in Flower 3 a couple weeks ago for nearly an entire week, and there was a single group that came from 6-8pm each night -- other than that, not a single other group. And this is flower 3 we're talking about.. the fastest place to get EXP from Il san to EE.. So fast that most people stay until they are EE both ways.

Yeah, there are places you can get hunts, but leeching is the most efficient way to get stats these days. That goes for everyone, even sam and sa sans.

Look at the majority of the groups in Vortex 3 -- it's usually like 10 people, 5 of them grouped, the others helping to get the other 5 (their alts) exp.

Hell, I whispered a poet the other day to see if she'd like to hunt, and she was leeching her weaker poet with her buffer poet. That's how pathetic things are now days.




So yeah, the leeching policy has been taking way too far. People want to be able to play the game, with their friends if possible, but people like Guldar let their personal opinions and ego get in the way of the rest of the community enjoying the company of each other. I don't mean to call Guldar out specifically, because he's not the only one. For so long so many have spoken out against those who hold positions of power within the game because of how they use the power.

This game is so fragmented, even more so within the players that are left at this point, that it's just pathetic.

Posted by: Laren Apr 22 2013, 01:51 PM

The public sentiment against leeching used to make sense, back when a person who wanted to hunt legitimately could always find a hunt. I was able to actually hunt, in groups, up to Enchanted stats, never getting leeched. If I wanted to hunt, it never took more than 30 minutes or so to find a good group. These days it's hard to find a group below Ee San, and nearly impossible below 99. Even as a Mage I'd have a hard time finding a hunt right now, and if I did find one it would be Courtyard, which I hate. Leeching is the only practical way to get to the point where you can actually hunt now. I'd love to see that change with more players, but until it does, leeching's just a fact, and fighting it is pointless.

Posted by: Hijack Apr 22 2013, 02:08 PM

This game would be [Content removed]ing dead without leeching. Guldar just has some [Content removed]ty attitude, and wants to micromanage everyone in his path.

Why not let the particular player decide?

-hijack
Proud supporter of the nexus tk Pro Choice movement

Posted by: Scruffy Apr 22 2013, 06:16 PM

QUOTE (Hijack @ Apr 22 2013, 02:08 PM) *
This game would be [Content removed]ing dead without leeching. Guldar just has some [Content removed]ty attitude, and wants to micromanage everyone in his path.

Why not let the particular player decide?

-hijack
Proud supporter of the nexus tk Pro Choice movement



I hate to be "that guy," but the player does get to decide. These rules aren't exactly hidden to potentials. They know that joining the path means no leeching or being leeched. They aren't surprised by that, and that's their choice. Why join a path, knowing what their rules are, just to say that you don't want to follow those rules? It's like coming into Nexus, swearing left and right, and then complaining that you want to be able to swear. It was your choice to come into the game, knowing the rules (Level 5 and it's stated directly to you via. quest,) and now you want to change those rules. It's just silly.

Posted by: Musoyan Apr 22 2013, 07:47 PM

Its always 1 step forward 2 steps back with this game. no wonder its dead.

Posted by: Doctor Apr 22 2013, 10:24 PM

lol who the [Content removed] cares

Posted by: Adam Apr 22 2013, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (Doctor @ Apr 22 2013, 09:24 PM) *
lol who the [Content removed] cares

people that still play the game












lol

Posted by: Adam Apr 22 2013, 10:54 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 21 2013, 10:00 PM) *
Uh, there is no way in the nine hells of Satan you can go from level 99 to Ee San stats by soloing Rooster 1 for 4 weeks.

I know this because BACK IN THE DAY WHEN ALL THIS CRAP ACTUALLY MATTERED, LrdDrkMoon only ever soloed, and like everyone else in the game at the time who was considered a power hunter, he hunted somewhere around 3-4 hours a day.

He is the first one to cast Rage 5 and Rage 6. It took him two years to get there, soloing mythic caves (because that's all there was back then; no vortex, no mug island, no woodlands, etc). You can attempt to argue that there are stronger weapons nowadays, people can get rage easier, etc etc but the spawn rate of mythic caves have not changed so it makes little difference.


Chill out -- that's not what he said.

He said he used to solo Rooster 1 and Rooster 2 BEFORE Wisdom Star, at which point he hunted during WS and went from 99 to Ee san.
QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 21 2013, 08:48 PM) *
It's not that bad. Anyone that knew me saw me go from 99-EE san in the matter of 3 days. Admittedly this was during wisdom star, but realistically without wisdom star it may have taken 2-4 weeks, accounting for a reduced number of people hunting. I didn't get leeched. Pre-wisdom star I soloed in rooster 1 constantly. As soon as I could, I soloed in Rooster 2 for hours at a time. Did it suck? Sure it did, but I did it. I spent hours upon hours of saging and grinding, just looking for a hunt that never came.

Posted by: lepetitchou Apr 22 2013, 11:52 PM

Stop being a stupid troll. People play different characters precisely because they can do different things with them.

LePetitChou is not a Chongun, so he can leech people.

People put work into subpaths and can set the rules for entering into those subpaths.

Don't like the silly hats club? Do something else. Stop being a dumb hater.

There is no 'issue' here.

QUOTE (LouisVuitton @ Apr 21 2013, 09:00 PM) *
basically guldar said any chongun caught leeching will be kicked out.
my thoughts: he's an idiot. look at people like lepetitchou who has a chongun guide alt but sells leeches..look at Berlin who leeches ALL of her characters with her chongun.. yeah you can go c.ryong but right now when the game only has 250-300 players online max Guldar is being a complete idiot. Hey Guldar, if leeching is sooo bad how about you make a warrior, & try to "hunt" him to rage 5-6 (this is when people will actually let warriors into the group) pants on the head move.


Posted by: Doctor Apr 23 2013, 02:10 AM

QUOTE (Adam @ Apr 22 2013, 08:50 PM) *
people that still play the game












lol

someone call the [Content removed]ing internet police, one of the 30 active chongun might get kicked out if they leech someone

SOMEONE [Content removed]ING CALM ME DOWN AND HOLD ME BACK THIS IS SERIOUSLY CHANGING AND ALTERING MY DAY TO DAY LIFE IN A WAY I CANT DEAL WITH

[Content removed] GULDAR HE IS BASICALLY HITLER

Posted by: DivineChi Apr 23 2013, 10:17 AM

Nah, Guldar is just like Obama, contradicting himself at every turn. He's leeched his own alts before, yet makes a policy not to do it. Anikara, JeranOrador, even Hanad he's done it to himself. I just think less of him now. And it's not really our job to tell him how to lead, just can point out his mistakes as he does it.

Sure, leeching is bad, if this game was well populated and actively hunting. But if you're world shouting for 5 hours a day, not finding a hunt, you waste more money looking for hunts than it would to pay for a leech. And before you say "Any experience is better than none" if I'm not maxing in 2 hours with your group, I can solo faster in woodlands, which I've been doing frequently. Just gets repetitive for little progress at that point. So leeching isn't the worst thing you can do, botting like Eggio did, is tongue.gif

Posted by: Doctor Apr 23 2013, 01:12 PM

QUOTE (DivineChi @ Apr 23 2013, 08:17 AM) *
Nah, Guldar is just like Obama, contradicting himself at every turn.


Posted by: Conro Apr 23 2013, 04:19 PM

Leeching isn't 'bad'.

Every other [Content removed]ing game has methods to get alternate characters and accounts to 'max level' in a quicker fashion except this game (besides 'leeching'). It's another way to make money and another way for people to spend it.

Holy hell, this game has so many other problems but you people still focus on the minor [Content removed] while things like THE PLAYER BASE IS BASICALLY FIVE PEOPLE WITH A BUNCH OF ACCOUNTS still exist.

Posted by: DivineChi Apr 23 2013, 04:35 PM

I still blame Conro.

Posted by: Darken Apr 23 2013, 06:41 PM

I wonder whats the Chongun stance on prostitution

Posted by: Destyn Apr 23 2013, 07:34 PM

Honestly guys, who cares. If you want to leech, then leech. The only real reason a path would make the decision to not leech is to make sure that their members actually know how to play their path properly. But, realistically, most elders now are horrible at playing their paths whether it be hunting or PK and only know how to roleplay (being optimistic on the latter).

But realistically, if you want to leech, just don't get caught?

Posted by: solman Apr 23 2013, 11:28 PM

guldar leeches on their alts.. i think there is a conflict of interest. Only real reason for no leech is because then you can prove how much better chongun/barb spells/weapons are over CR. But stupid either way.

Posted by: LouisVuitton Apr 24 2013, 06:37 AM

All of the good leeching rooms are usually pretty busy, even with 100 players.. 2nd room Rhino, Lobsters, Northern ogers last room, underwater.. Awhile ago I was playing my Chongun and was leeching my alt poet in Rhinos.. Once another group came in and saw a mighty honorable coolguy Chongun leeching they cried to a guide, and I got a NASTY n-mail about leeching.. If you're going to leech on a Chongun make sure you do it somewhere nobody hunts, which is pretty easy to find now.
Yes Guldar, I have a Chongun and I leeched. <3 Kick me, I dare you

Posted by: Destyn Apr 24 2013, 01:02 PM

QUOTE (solman @ Apr 23 2013, 11:28 PM) *
guldar leeches on their alts.. i think there is a conflict of interest. Only real reason for no leech is because then you can prove how much better chongun/barb spells/weapons are over CR. But stupid either way.


Hardly. If you actually knew something, you'd realize that CR do quite a bit more damage than the subpaths. I have a sam san barb with weapon and CR does more damage (easily) with the same items. Just because someone leeches on their alt, doesn't mean it is a conflict of interest. That's called metagaming which should not apply to subpaths who roleplay. Regardless, leeching rule is stupid.

Posted by: Brant Apr 24 2013, 02:16 PM

QUOTE (Destyn @ Apr 24 2013, 01:02 PM) *
Hardly. If you actually knew something, you'd realize that CR do quite a bit more damage than the subpaths. I have a sam san barb with weapon and CR does more damage (easily) with the same items. Just because someone leeches on their alt, doesn't mean it is a conflict of interest. That's called metagaming which should not apply to subpaths who roleplay. Regardless, leeching rule is stupid.


CR is slightly better than Barb damage wise, but with attacks and everything else taken in to account, Barb has a huge advantage. Unfortunately, the last few Chongun elders spent so much time whining and lobbying the archons/KRU that they were so weak that they are now the strongest PC subpath. Do, on the other hand, has gotten jack [Content removed] in the last 5+ years with regards to hunting abilities. Then again, Do doesn't whine about it.

All of the classes are unbalanced when it comes to subpaths, that's why certain classes have a much larger player base than the others of the same class.

In case you were wondering:

Poet - Monk
Mage - Diviner
Rogue - Spy
Warrior - Historically it's been barb, but in the last few years Chongun passed them.

The rest of the paths are typically filled with alts or those who don't really hunt.

Posted by: OhHowSoCute Apr 24 2013, 03:08 PM

If anyone wants to start some drama, pull a guldar.

Step 1: Get whiny and leave the path, email kru saying you are going to quit if guldar's head isn't on a plate.
Step 2: Lead revolt
Step 3: suck some [Content removed]
Step 4: become elder

But seriously, I think it would be mighty funny if the community outraged about this, and overthrew him for something so dumb. At least he's consistent though. He is the most holier than thou guy in the world.

Posted by: oogabooga Apr 24 2013, 03:51 PM

CR may only be slightly better than the subpaths damage wise until Sa san but since the ingresses weren't evened out at Sa san like they were all the previous sans CRs can 2-4 swing a full PA set in anch3 while the rest take 10+ swings.

Posted by: Destyn Apr 24 2013, 04:12 PM

QUOTE (oogabooga @ Apr 24 2013, 03:51 PM) *
CR may only be slightly better than the subpaths damage wise until Sa san but since the ingresses weren't evened out at Sa san like they were all the previous sans CRs can 2-4 swing a full PA set in anch3 while the rest take 10+ swings.


I'm pretty sure even at sam san they out damage them. The PC subpath weapons really aren't all that great since some of these new weapons came out, and at sam san and sa san PC warriors have to use the same ingress as NPC warriors. So with stronger rage, similar weapons, and same ingress..you do the path.

Posted by: oogabooga Apr 25 2013, 05:03 AM

I know that PC subpaths are comparably weaker was just going on Brant's point on how the may slightly be weaker. As I haven't had a below Sa san fighter since the ingress revamp I wouldn't know so I said may only slight be better.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM

QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 22 2013, 06:16 PM) *
I hate to be "that guy," but the player does get to decide. These rules aren't exactly hidden to potentials. They know that joining the path means no leeching or being leeched. They aren't surprised by that, and that's their choice. Why join a path, knowing what their rules are, just to say that you don't want to follow those rules? It's like coming into Nexus, swearing left and right, and then complaining that you want to be able to swear. It was your choice to come into the game, knowing the rules (Level 5 and it's stated directly to you via. quest,) and now you want to change those rules. It's just silly.


So let me get this straight.


Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

When there are unfair rules, people are supposed to protest them and demand change. That's how social progress is made.

Sure, there are some rules that are part of a group's identity. Chonguns are supposed to be honorable, for example. But the leeching rule is just questionable as hell. I don't see how that fits in the identity of the path, and I'm saying that as one of the people responsible for their lore. If anything, there is a way to make it comply with their lore; Chonguns as militia leaders who need to train their soldiers from raw recruits into well drilled infantrymen, for example.

Posted by: Falaris Apr 25 2013, 09:28 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM) *
So let me get this straight.


Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?


Dude, whoa.

Posted by: Scruffy Apr 26 2013, 12:14 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 09:27 PM) *
So let me get this straight.


Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

When there are unfair rules, people are supposed to protest them and demand change. That's how social progress is made.

Sure, there are some rules that are part of a group's identity. Chonguns are supposed to be honorable, for example. But the leeching rule is just questionable as hell. I don't see how that fits in the identity of the path, and I'm saying that as one of the people responsible for their lore. If anything, there is a way to make it comply with their lore; Chonguns as militia leaders who need to train their soldiers from raw recruits into well drilled infantrymen, for example.


That's getting a bit extreme. People have protested. Members of the barbarians have said they want to leech. The path spoke and a majority said they didn't want to allow for leeching. The difference between your analogy and the reality of this situation is that these paths choosing not to leech literally does not affect anyone outside of the path. The people in the path are willing, where the slaves were not. It's like trying to go to the White House and saying "Quit brewing your White House beer, because we don't want you to. It's not fair." Well, how does that affect you at all? If these paths were directly trying to infringe on the entire community's right to leech, then I could see a need for protest. However, considering this isn't what's happening, I don't see the issue. If you have a character in one of these paths, talk to your elder. If not, why complain?

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 26 2013, 11:57 AM

Not sure why it double posted.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 26 2013, 11:57 AM

QUOTE (Falaris @ Apr 25 2013, 09:28 PM) *
Dude, whoa.


Well, it's true.

If you take the stance that people should react to unfair rules by just leaving and/or not joining a group, and that you should just form a different one, that's akin to saying, "Don't like the laws? Don't live here."

Unfortunately, in the land of Nexus, the game developers in their infinite wisdom have decided there is a finite number of subpaths and no new ones can be created. 12 lucky people get to be tyrants over the land and raise their own band of ass-kissers to political positions within their subpath cults. Even if "votes" are held, they are not held in any way that even remotely resembles a real democratic election, since nothing is done by secret ballot. People who vote to a side the Elder doesn't support suffer political backlash, and everyone knows it. The history of this community is filled with examples.

Of course, the Elders and their band of ass-kissers will never acknowledge this is how things work, because their egos do not allow them to accept anything less than them being good people; indeed, in their minds they are the last bastion of hope for their paths and guardians against it completely falling into decay. They are the heroes of the game, even if the consequences of their actions indicate otherwise.

It really sickens me how this game is held back by a handful of people who use the game to compensate for the lack of success in their real lives.

QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 26 2013, 12:14 AM) *
That's getting a bit extreme. People have protested. Members of the barbarians have said they want to leech. The path spoke and a majority said they didn't want to allow for leeching. The difference between your analogy and the reality of this situation is that these paths choosing not to leech literally does not affect anyone outside of the path. The people in the path are willing, where the slaves were not. It's like trying to go to the White House and saying "Quit brewing your White House beer, because we don't want you to. It's not fair." Well, how does that affect you at all? If these paths were directly trying to infringe on the entire community's right to leech, then I could see a need for protest. However, considering this isn't what's happening, I don't see the issue. If you have a character in one of these paths, talk to your elder. If not, why complain?


I'll give you three golden reasons why:

#1 This is not something that should have went to a path vote, because there is no harm in a Sa San Barbarian / Chongun helping someone go from level 1 to 99 in a weekend. There is only positive things that can come from that. There should not be penalties for doing things that cause no harm.

Just because it was decided by a "majority" does not make it a moral decision.

#2 It affects the community because it dictates how Barbarians will interact with non-Barbarians / Chonguns, especially during events where a Barbarian / Chongun may need to hunt with someone well below their own stats because the pickings are slim due to a low userbase. The parties in need of a fighter won't be able to select a Barb / Chongun whose stats are higher and might be perceived as leeching them, which leads the people in those parties to consider the Chonguns / Barbs some self-righteous twats too good for them.

# 3 It makes for more unnecessary political drama, such as someone crying for so-and so Sa san to be kicked from the Barbarians / Chonguns simply because he was in a party with an army of poets needed to heal him, because nobody else wanted to [Content removed]ing hunt at that time of day.

I could go on but it's really a giant waste of my time to do so. Those three reasons are enough.

Posted by: Falaris Apr 26 2013, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 26 2013, 11:57 AM) *
Well, it's true.

If you take the stance that people should react to unfair rules by just leaving and/or not joining a group, and that you should just form a different one, that's akin to saying, "Don't like the laws? Don't live here."


No, it really isn't true. The world is not black and white. I think my past on Nexus speaks for itself when it comes to what I believe in regard to changing things that I don't believe are right. However, in no way, shape, or form would I ever suggest that anything I did on Nexus compares to being for or against slavery.

I'm not really interested in getting into a long discussion with you and I have avoided the main point of this topic because A) I really don't care about Nexus, 2) I find it seriously amusing that people are still getting caught up in drama and arguments over this kind of nonsense, and D) lists are better in threes. Yet I jumped in here because it is flat out absurd to suggest that someone who ignores another person's silly rule in a fantasy game is akin to ignoring slavery and being a white supremacist. We are talking about players having a stupid restriction placed on them as far as how they choose to enjoy this game versus the ownership of other human beings' lives. That's not even on the same continent, much less in the same sport, much less in the same ballpark. Actually, it's not even on the same planet. You're on like, Pluto.

It's still a planet to me, damnit sad.gif

Posted by: WereWulf Apr 26 2013, 03:48 PM

Wait lemme just get some things...




Okay go! tongue.gif

Posted by: CinderZ Apr 26 2013, 05:59 PM

QUOTE (WereWulf @ Apr 26 2013, 03:48 PM) *


Okay go! tongue.gif

My pleasure, WereWulf. tl;dr - I'm old, so listen to me, dang kids. I care more than Falaris, so I'll write more.

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM) *
Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

Well, let's deconstruct this. It's always fun to redefine an opponent's position to one that few could possibly agree with. Unfortunately, it's not how reasonable discussion works. DarkMaverick presumes too early that the other side believes the rules are unfair. Many think it's a fair idea. Chonguns who train Warriors to be better Warriors feel that recipients of leeches are often ill-equipped and ill-informed on how to play the game well. Leechers aren't often very good trainers.

Now, I did leech people on my alternate character because there was and is a massive market of people who wanted an easier path for their alternate characters. I like warriors so I play warriors. It wasn't even gaming a system, because Chonguns were completely pathetic damage-dealers in hunts before PC fighter subpaths got rages and cunnings. Swinging became pointless very early in the game, and without vitality, Chonguns weren't much better than a poet walking around with a Spike. After I stepped down as elder, came back a few years later as my alternate character, then got my original character, CinderZ, restored, I thought, awesome, two warriors! Even better for me, WARRIORS GOT WAY BETTER! The suckfest that was playing a warrior from Y24-Y80 (I don't know, like 8 or 9 years) was unbelievable. I give a lot of credit to DarkMaverick for working so hard to get warrior whirlwind from 10 vitality ALWAYS TO an optional 10%. I remember that change. God, I'm old.

Perhaps it is the implementation of the leeching rules (by decree) which is unfair. That's a fair topic to debate, but let's set that aside for now.

DM, you compared a "try something else in another group" mindset to the beliefs of white supremacists, and that is beyond absurd. Doing this gets pageviews and attention, sure, but it also reveals a contempt for your opponent. It's fighting in the gutter, ignoring the original argument, and blatantly AD HOMINEM and REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM at the same time. Other examples of this style of poor argumentation include the oft-used Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies. ('You know who else thought your way.... HITLER!')

Conflating a demonstrable need for democracy within some subpaths with white supremacists confuses the issue, and isn't helpful.

Now, highlighting that there are other possibilities than just fomenting a rebellion is entirely within the bounds of discussion. On that point... life is not always about tearing down other people's work. People play favorites. Leaders make bold decisions. Rebellions sometimes occur as a result. DarkMaverick, yours failed, years and years ago. It was a hell of an attempt, but a failure nonetheless. It was consistent with many tight-knit organizations with strong leadership. When people quit and/or are removed from organizations, reinstatement is rare for the leaders of very public and very embarrassing insurrections, rebellions, etc.

I agreed with many of your ideas for the Chonguns then, which is why I didn't choose a successor when I stepped down as Elder, and the path voted for the next Elder, Audi. Over time, the Chongun lore dramatically changed, and it was great that you had a hand in writing it. You have great ideas, but when it came to Nexus... you had terrible methods. One of your great ideas is a blind ballot. It ought to be implemented in more subpaths.

You write that the subpath system ruins this game & subpath leaders are tyrannical in nature but are blind to it because of their own hero complexes. For a few cases, this is true. Not for all cases. People are more inclined to remember the worst examples of abuses of power. The subpath system absolutely could be set up better, but would not be historically or fictionally faithful, as god-awful as some GMs and Archons have been over the years.

IMO, doing what you did so long ago -- announcing to the Nexus Community board (and oh god, what

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 25 2013, 08:27 PM) *
# 3 [...] unnecessary political drama, [...]

that was...) that a subpath elder is handing off Eldership to a real-life relationship partner -- was revealing very personal information, and to many, that was an invasion of privacy. Was it the right thing to do? Again, I think it was the right idea but the wrong method, and it earned you many enemies and friends. Uprooting every subpath's culture and spreading freedom & democracy belies arrogance. Nexus was and continues to be a place shaped by ideas other than your own -- Neoconfucian ideas, Taoist ideas, Buddhist ideas, and ideas on Democracy.

So... not only do I believe that it is perfectly fine to tell people "Don't like this decision? Try another subpath!" Which, admittedly, can make us feel like this...



...in regards to subpaths themselves...

I think it is perfectly fine to tell people,

"Don't like this game? Accomplish something else in it!"

"Don't like subpath policies? Consult with subpaths in a respectful manner!"

"Have a good idea? Share it! It might be difficult to implement but don't let that stop us!"

Why? Because kindness and compassion can earn one extraordinary things in life, such as the respect of your opponents. These things are not promises, and are subject to that which is beyond one's control, but they are often reciprocated, and people are usually the better for it. Frankly, I'm glad you care enough about Nexus to want to make it better. I hope it continues to get better and make money for Kru. I think, unfortunately, that you were very badly burned by your own experiences playing the game, and not adept enough at collaborating with others in it.

Kind regards,
CinderZ

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 27 2013, 07:05 AM

QUOTE (Falaris @ Apr 26 2013, 03:07 PM) *
No, it really isn't true. The world is not black and white. I think my past on Nexus speaks for itself when it comes to what I believe in regard to changing things that I don't believe are right. However, in no way, shape, or form would I ever suggest that anything I did on Nexus compares to being for or against slavery.

I'm not really interested in getting into a long discussion with you and I have avoided the main point of this topic because A) I really don't care about Nexus, 2) I find it seriously amusing that people are still getting caught up in drama and arguments over this kind of nonsense, and D) lists are better in threes. Yet I jumped in here because it is flat out absurd to suggest that someone who ignores another person's silly rule in a fantasy game is akin to ignoring slavery and being a white supremacist. We are talking about players having a stupid restriction placed on them as far as how they choose to enjoy this game versus the ownership of other human beings' lives. That's not even on the same continent, much less in the same sport, much less in the same ballpark. Actually, it's not even on the same planet. You're on like, Pluto.

It's still a planet to me, damnit sad.gif


You clearly saw the word "slavery" and ignored everything else.

This is what I actually said:

QUOTE
[i]Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

When there are unfair rules, people are supposed to protest them and demand change. That's how social progress is made. [/i]


The argument I made was thus:

The position that, "when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules" is a position that echoes the pro-slavery arguments made during the Civil War (ex. "if you don't like slavery, don't live in a State with slavery!).

Because the position can be used to justify any number of morally reprehensible things, the position is obviously a bad one to adopt for even minor things.

That was my actual argument. I thought it pretty obvious.

QUOTE (CinderZ @ Apr 26 2013, 05:59 PM) *
Well, let's deconstruct this. It's always fun to redefine an opponent's position to one that few could possibly agree with. Unfortunately, it's not how reasonable discussion works. DarkMaverick presumes too early that the other side believes the rules are unfair. Many think it's a fair idea. Chonguns who train Warriors to be better Warriors feel that recipients of leeches are often ill-equipped and ill-informed on how to play the game well. Leechers aren't often very good trainers.


Uh, this is Nexus:TK, not World of Warcraft that demands actual strategy and skill (complex skill rotations based on builds, different pull strategies for different mob packs, raid bosses requiring different complex strategies like http://youtu.be/zuVX8x5dq3g?t=1m9s, etc).

Nexus is not the most complicated game in the world to play. Warriors these days can just hold down spacebar to win. So the argument, "leeched people won't know how to play!!!" is pretty weak, if not retarded.

Also, as I said before, a majority decision does not make it a moral decision. Such a rule should not even have went up for a path vote to begin with, because it's so ridiculous.

QUOTE
DM, you compared a "try something else in another group" mindset to the beliefs of white supremacists, and that is beyond absurd. Doing this gets pageviews and attention, sure, but it also reveals a contempt for your opponent. It's fighting in the gutter, ignoring the original argument, and blatantly AD HOMINEM and REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM at the same time. Other examples of this style of poor argumentation include the oft-used Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies. ('You know who else thought your way.... HITLER!')


I didn't compare "try something else in another group" to the position of white supremacists. Go back and read the posts, it's clear you skimmed through them.

QUOTE
Now, highlighting that there are other possibilities than just fomenting a rebellion is entirely within the bounds of discussion. On that point... life is not always about tearing down other people's work. People play favorites. Leaders make bold decisions. Rebellions sometimes occur as a result. DarkMaverick, yours failed, years and years ago. It was a hell of an attempt, but a failure nonetheless. It was consistent with many tight-knit organizations with strong leadership. When people quit and/or are removed from organizations, reinstatement is rare for the leaders of very public and very embarrassing insurrections, rebellions, etc.

I agreed with many of your ideas for the Chonguns then, which is why I didn't choose a successor when I stepped down as Elder, and the path voted for the next Elder, Audi. Over time, the Chongun lore dramatically changed, and it was great that you had a hand in writing it. You have great ideas, but when it came to Nexus... you had terrible methods. One of your great ideas is a blind ballot. It ought to be implemented in more subpaths.

You write that the subpath system ruins this game & subpath leaders are tyrannical in nature but are blind to it because of their own hero complexes. For a few cases, this is true. Not for all cases. People are more inclined to remember the worst examples of abuses of power. The subpath system absolutely could be set up better, but would not be historically or fictionally faithful, as god-awful as some GMs and Archons have been over the years.


I know you haven't gotten to your point here, but I'm going to stop you right there at the point I put in bolds and correct you.

People are more inclined to remember the worst examples of abuses of power that the community became aware of.

Due to the secretive nature of the Archons, there is a whole lot of [Content removed] they have gotten away with that the community doesn't know about, because talking about it in or out of game tends to get people jailed / banned.

Also, the whole "it wouldn't be historically accurate" thing? There were no dragons in ancient Korea either. Actually, the Elder, Guide, etc system isn't historically accurate either. It came from a fantasy novel that had secret societies, whose name escapes me for the moment, but that ORB cited in his essay about subpaths on his website. Also he was inspired by the clans from Vampire: The Masquerade.

But here's the best reason why subpaths in Nexus aren't historically accurate:

If it had been RL, we wouldn't have needed to ask the Archons to remove anyone from Elder. The subpaths would depose bad leaders http://youtu.be/g4YnqoWZ7FU?t=4m13s, which is the truly "historically accurate way" bad leaders are removed from power during that time period.

QUOTE
IMO, doing what you did so long ago -- announcing to the Nexus Community board (and oh god, what
that was...) that a subpath elder is handing off Eldership to a real-life relationship partner -- was revealing very personal information, and to many, that was an invasion of privacy.


Oh you must be joking.

Hey newer generations of Chonguns reading this, let me clarify what actually happened back then:

Originally, subpath Elders could only make a certain number of Guides. After they hit this number they were expected to step down from Elder.

When then-Elder Gildenstar maxed out on Guides, she decided to leech up a character called Neese which was played by her RL boyfriend while Gild leeched the chara up. Neese was brought into the path for the sole purpose of allowing Gildenstar to be Elder a second time, because once Neese passed Eldership back to Gildenstar, Gild would have more Guide slots, since she abandoned the path to reset her slots after giving Eldership to Neese. Gild then re-joined and was given instant Guideship back.

(For the record, this was considered bug abuse by NEXON, and her guide slots were locked by Kismet shortly before he got fired and the game basically didn't have an active GM who gave a damn (but did she step down? of course not. Not for many more months would she relinquish power).

Anyway, getting more Guide slots was not the sole purpose. Neese was also used to kick out Chonguns Gildenstar didn't particularly like but the path loved. Guide Gamefire protested and got swiftly kicked out himself, and after a tearful phone call from Gamefire that is when I came back to the game (I had just completed my initial MOS training in the Army when this all started) and attempted to get Gildenstar to see reason. I screenshoted the entire conversation because I could not believe the bull[Content removed] I was hearing from Gild and how far she had fallen. When I refused to agree with Gildenstar's master plan of kicking people out without needing to take the blame personally -- it could go to Neese instead -- and being Elder forever, Neese / Gild then kicked me out of the path, too. That's when I went public with what was going on and tried to get Gild removed from power.

CinderZ knows all this, because he was one of the people who was raised to Guide for kissing ass to Gildenstar during the whole crisis. He just didn't give a [Content removed]. So trying to pull a "shame on you for revealing personal info" is pretty pathetic. The only thing I regret about that crisis was that Gild remained in power, and the path has never fully recovered from it since the leadership has been tainted by the experience. The path has gone through all kinds of lunacy, especially that period with Alton as Elder. It was incompetent Elder after incompetent Elder.

The Chonguns were supposed to be the paladin equivalent of Nexus. Instead they've become people who like to speak the words of the creed but can't abide by them, and any decision by path vote is jeopardized by the immaturity of the membership who never had a proper role model to follow in the first place of what a Chongun should be. This anti-leeching rule wouldn't have been supported back in my day as Guide. Hell, we regularly hunted with our weaker members when possible, our own version of a clan hunt.

Gild and I buried that hatchet a long ass time ago, so I'm not saying this out of spite. I'm just clarifying the truth of the matter, since the BS people are spoonfed (mostly through that ridiculous post of Kamehameha in the path scroll, who btw was also raised to Guide as a reward for betraying the other Chonguns who were revolting in the path, giving their names to Gild so she could kick them out before they could take part in an Archon held path vote to have Gild removed). The people who remained in the path after that time were the ones who betrayed the very ideals the path was based on, and the people who joined have been tainted by the back-stabbing culture that remained. I tried many, many times to get the path back on track, but each time I got thwarted by people who wanted to preserve their sense of self-importance or other greed (ex. "Hey, maybe we shouldn't be charging aspirants 100 dark ambers to join the path?" which was one of Audi's trials for a time) and saw me as a threat to them becoming Elder / other influence.

tl:dr the scandal was not that it was her boyfriend. The scandal was that she was bug abusing and using an alt chara to kick people out of the path that she didn't have legit reasons to do so, and didn't want her main chara to get the heat for doing the dirty work. Her bf just happened to be a co-conspirator.

QUOTE
Was it the right thing to do? Again, I think it was the right idea but the wrong method, and it earned you many enemies and friends. Uprooting every subpath's culture and spreading freedom & democracy belies arrogance. Nexus was and continues to be a place shaped by ideas other than your own -- Neoconfucian ideas, Taoist ideas, Buddhist ideas, and ideas on Democracy.

So... not only do I believe that it is perfectly fine to tell people "Don't like this decision? Try another subpath!" Which, admittedly, can make us feel like this...

...in regards to subpaths themselves...

I think it is perfectly fine to tell people,

"Don't like this game? Accomplish something else in it!"

"Don't like subpath policies? Consult with subpaths in a respectful manner!"

"Have a good idea? Share it! It might be difficult to implement but don't let that stop us!"


It's actually not fine, because unlike World of Warcraft, Ragnarok Online or pretty much any other MMORPG, if you don't like what a group is doing you can't just form another group with the people who agree with you. There is finite number of subpaths, and that number is maxed out. Even with clans now, it doesn't seem possible to make more since the playerbase doesn't exist to support it.

If the game is going to have a finite number of groups total, the groups need to operate under something other than a charismatic dictatorship. Sure, some Elders are benevolent dictators, but that isn't always the case. And short of an Elder trying to disband the subpath, KRU doesn't really give a [Content removed] what silly rules Elders institute because they don't police their own police states, which means hard-coded tools should be added to subpaths that allow for things like silent votes or deposing an Elder by path vote.

Of course, that's just wishful thinking since, again, KRU doesn't give a [Content removed].

Also CinderZ you can butter your post with, "I kinda agree with you, I kinda don't", but at the end of the day you're trying to justify the Chonguns kicking out people on the basis that they help new players get to the point they can actually play with the rest of the active community.

I may have lost my Guideship by refusing to turn a blind eye to what Gild did back then, and gotten into more escapades over the years for continually refusing to pretend everything is fine and dandy when it's not, but at the end of the day I have something you and others in the path who were willing to play some Game of Thrones level political BS don't have: my integrity. And that's what actually makes a Chongun a Chongun, not some text over your path name.

And in a game that has always been about the community interaction and not the gameplay, you and other subpath leaders share blame with KRU for the dwindling player base. Had you all made better decisions things would not be the way they are today. The elitist viewpoints you cling to and willingness to turn a blind eye to injustices to preserve your personal political agendas (i.e. become Guide, Elder, Primogen, Archon, etc) have driven good people away from the game, and this path inevitably will result in the game shutting down for financial reasons, and all your achievements, histories, and reputation will be gone.

In short, your actions will result in the destruction of the very empires you've built. If it was any other game publisher, Nexus would have shut down a long time ago, but we're dealing with a company that operated on a skeleton crew to begin with so you've been fortunate. But there will inevitably come a point their model doesn't work and they are forced to file for bankruptcy. And I very much doubt NEXON will take over running a game like this.

Oh last thing:

QUOTE
I give a lot of credit to DarkMaverick for working so hard to get warrior whirlwind from 10 vitality ALWAYS TO an optional 10%. I remember that change. God, I'm old.


Let's be hypothetical and suppose things had worked out differently. NEXON did give a damn that Gild was bug abusing to the point she got stripped of Elder and jailed with something she couldn't use Pardon to remove from herself (like she did with her Sage abuse jailing). A path vote was actually held, and I was made Elder.

If events had worked out like that, do you think the game would still be in the state it is right now? Sure, Eldridge and I didn't get along, but I did convince him to change Whirlwind. Kismet also liked me. mug especially liked me. I was able to get a hell of a lot accomplished behind the scenes when mug was around.

Despite never holding a political office higher than Guide I was able to accomplish things usually only achieved by Elders and Archons. So dont you think that maybe -- just maybe-- had I actually been Elder of the Chonguns and the GMs had to meet with me every week, I might have persuaded them to implement a lot of better changes for the whole community years ago, and things might not suck as hard today? Or even make some better quota round choices that gave the path better tools for community engagement and assist roleplaying? And because the other Elders would have had to actually listen to me every week, I could have also persuaded them to make wiser decisions on their round requests.

In the end, we'll never know for sure, but I think if Eldership was viewed less as an end-goal and more as a means to speak with the developers to impact positive change for the whole community (rather than just individual paths and the glory that can be obtained from naming subpath maps after yourself...) things would be different.

Posted by: LouisVuitton Apr 27 2013, 07:50 AM

QUOTE (OhHowSoCute @ Apr 24 2013, 04:08 PM) *
If anyone wants to start some drama, pull a guldar.

Step 1: Get whiny and leave the path, email kru saying you are going to quit if guldar's head isn't on a plate.
Step 2: Lead revolt
Step 3: suck some [Content removed]
Step 4: become elder

But seriously, I think it would be mighty funny if the community outraged about this, and overthrew him for something so dumb. At least he's consistent though. He is the most holier than thou guy in the world.



So who emailed kru saying they would quit if Guldars head wasn't on a plate?

Guldar did this before? What a prick.

Posted by: Cuchulain Apr 27 2013, 10:27 AM

For the record: The rule isn't that you can't help people get to 99. The rule is you can't afk leech them while they're boxed in by horses, and you can't receive leeches yourself. This is also not a new rule, just a clarification of an old one.

Posted by: solman Apr 27 2013, 10:45 AM

You sure about that cuchulain? Pretty sure it was all leeching especially if paid for even if your not boxed in and walking around. you have to contribute to the group and no cash can exchange hands either for the leech or to accept $ for said leech.

Either way I personally find it hard to believe the whole path voted and the majority now a days is against leeching when 99% of this game your expected to and its common place. Just saying, its not like we had thousands of players in the past sure but the stat gap is so much bigger now then it was back then so finding said hunts is impossible. What took maybe a 1/2 hour just to find a hunt you might find in maybe 6 hours of begging and pleading. If your lucky. Most now just wont touch a subpath until they are leeched said stats then join later. But whatever it takes man. People will find work around no matter if they make up rules or not. It will not stop. But the fact that the elder does leech on alts or has accepted it in the past makes it a conflict of interest does it not? You cant take any rule seriously that the elder enforced but yet has done just the opposite in the past.


Its all semantics anyways. You dont want to leech, you will rarely find a hunt. You want stats without leeching you go to the black market and buy a character with stats already. Do a name change and boom your in biz. Your either with the change or against it. but dont think rules like no leech policies are going to change anything in nexus. Its not what is wrong with the game.

Posted by: Falaris Apr 27 2013, 11:56 AM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 27 2013, 07:05 AM) *
You clearly saw the word "slavery" and ignored everything else.

This is what I actually said:

Your position is that, when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules.

You do realize this puts you in the company of white supremacists who believe slavery should never have been outlawed, right?

When there are unfair rules, people are supposed to protest them and demand change. That's how social progress is made.


The argument I made was thus:

The position that, "when there are unfair rules and policies in place, people should just refuse to be part of a group and/or play a game than attempt to change the unfair rules" is a position that echoes the pro-slavery arguments made during the Civil War (ex. "if you don't like slavery, don't live in a State with slavery!).

Because the position can be used to justify any number of morally reprehensible things, the position is obviously a bad one to adopt for even minor things.

That was my actual argument. I thought it pretty obvious.


Except a majority of people in a group on a game deciding the rules that must be followed in their clique and telling people if they don't like it, they are welcome to leave is not a morally reprehensible opinion in the first place, and it certainly isn't factually correct or incorrect. Not everyone has a right to join the Chonguns as I'm sure you know, and therefore they can decide whatever rules they want. They are not infringing on anyone else's rights besides their own members, they are not forcing their people to do something wrong, and if the majority are for this then so be it.

I find their rule to be utterly ridiculous, and there isn't a problem with at least voicing your own opinion on a public forum, but I'm not going to sit here and tell them how they should run their path, nor will I insult people who don't share my view or make outrageous comparisons whilst turning the derp up to 11.

This path rule goes against your values and what you would do if you were there, but your values are not right or wrong, they just are. Your opinion is not right, wrong, correct, or incorrect; it just is. This is what you have never understood, and so then you make ridiculous comparisons and go to the absolute furthest extremes in your metaphors.

You can use any kind of reasoning you want to try to get out of this, and I know in your own mind you are right and nothing is ever going to change that, but you clearly said "this puts you in the company of white supremacists." You made a direct correlation by saying "Your reasoning regarding this game makes you akin to people who are pro-slavery." You purposely chose that example because you were hoping to make the biggest impact and to also guilt the person into changing their opinion, but in the end you went so far overboard that you undermined your own point because no one can take you seriously, and moreover you were insulting to boot.

All things are not black and white. The reason we don't use the electric chair for people who steal purses is because it isn't the same as the premeditated murdering another person. Both are, actually in this instance, morally reprehensible, but we don't compare the two at all because one is much more severe than the other.

Look, at the end of the day you are free to make all the ridiculous statements you want, I'm just giving you an honest assessment of why most people don't even bother with you any longer.

Anyway, I have no idea why I even bothered to type this all out since you'll just come back with a wall of text 4x the size using every form of twisted logic so that you can feel good about yourself that you won an argument on an internet forum and feel you are right, but at the end of the day you talked out of your ass and no amount of logical fallacies are going to change that. Telling someone who opts for the position that "if you don't like the Chongun rule, then don't join the Chonguns" that they are in the same company as white supremacists is flat out ridiculous.

For the record, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying it was a ludicrous example. You are still entitled to your own opinion to compare the guy to white supremacists, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to sit here and not give our own opinions that your opinion is, bluntly stated, stupid.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 27 2013, 01:19 PM

So basically Falaris, you're saying you agree with me that it's a ridiculous rule, you just don't like my reasons for why I believe, "We held a vote" doesn't make the rule right.

Posted by: Cuchulain Apr 27 2013, 05:31 PM

QUOTE (solman @ Apr 27 2013, 10:45 AM) *
You sure about that cuchulain? Pretty sure it was all leeching especially if paid for even if your not boxed in and walking around. you have to contribute to the group and no cash can exchange hands either for the leech or to accept $ for said leech.

Either way I personally find it hard to believe the whole path voted and the majority now a days is against leeching when 99% of this game your expected to and its common place. Just saying, its not like we had thousands of players in the past sure but the stat gap is so much bigger now then it was back then so finding said hunts is impossible. What took maybe a 1/2 hour just to find a hunt you might find in maybe 6 hours of begging and pleading. If your lucky. Most now just wont touch a subpath until they are leeched said stats then join later. But whatever it takes man. People will find work around no matter if they make up rules or not. It will not stop. But the fact that the elder does leech on alts or has accepted it in the past makes it a conflict of interest does it not? You cant take any rule seriously that the elder enforced but yet has done just the opposite in the past.


Its all semantics anyways. You dont want to leech, you will rarely find a hunt. You want stats without leeching you go to the black market and buy a character with stats already. Do a name change and boom your in biz. Your either with the change or against it. but dont think rules like no leech policies are going to change anything in nexus. Its not what is wrong with the game.


Oh sorry, yeah. I was referring to whoever was saying "well for RP reasons it would make sense to train your new recruits", you can totally do that, as long as they're contributing in some way, and not boxed in with horses. The no paying/getting payed thing has been a rule in the chongunate for as long as I was a part of it. (Not saying it's a good or bad rule, just saying it hasn't been changed recently.)

The only -recent- change was the "no chongun gets leeched period" part, and the clarification of how chonguns are allowed to help others (no boxing in with horses, must be contributing).


QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 27 2013, 01:19 PM) *
So basically Falaris, you're saying you agree with me that it's a ridiculous rule, you just don't like my reasons for why I believe, "We held a vote" doesn't make the rule right.


Falaris' post had nothing to do with the "We held a vote" part of the discussion, and neither did your comparison to white supremacists. You compared "If you don't like our groups rules, don't join our group" to white supremacists.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 28 2013, 12:16 AM

QUOTE (Cuchulain @ Apr 27 2013, 05:31 PM) *
Falaris' post had nothing to do with the "We held a vote" part of the discussion, and neither did your comparison to white supremacists. You compared "If you don't like our groups rules, don't join our group" to white supremacists.


It's all tied together, dude. And with the prejudice veteran subpathers have against new players (or in the Chongun's case, people who quit the game and then return with a desire to re-join the path) I don't think the comparison is that far off. They all have this weird paranoia that everyone wants to steal their spells / items / super secret knowledge that guides most of their decision making, and blame the ruin of everything to the GM enforced quota.

Of course, I'm a little bias given my history with the path. I'll admit that.

Posted by: Mellow Apr 28 2013, 01:22 AM

This has been a rule for a while with Barbarians.

I can't imagine even coming across anyone interested in being leeched either way with how things are.

Still if you were desperate, would be better off in NPC to enjoy the stronger rage.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 28 2013, 09:20 AM

Also, if I recall correctly, I had written a 'Chongun Bill of Rights' during the time I was encouraging the path to become more democratic in major decision making, and that document was designed specifically to prevent silly rules like this from being implementable in the first place.

Posted by: Brant Apr 28 2013, 01:54 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 28 2013, 09:20 AM) *
Also, if I recall correctly, I had written a 'Chongun Bill of Rights' during the time I was encouraging the path to become more democratic in major decision making, and that document was designed specifically to prevent silly rules like this from being implementable in the first place.


The great thing about Nexus subpaths though is that just because one person writes something doesn't mean the next Elder has to enforce it.

Posted by: Doctor Apr 28 2013, 02:47 PM

QUOTE (Brant @ Apr 28 2013, 11:54 AM) *
The great thing about Nexus subpaths though is that just because one person writes something doesn't mean the next Elder has to enforce it.

This is signified by DarkMaverick's lesser known plea to construct an NPC that was his naked adonis body carrying innocent women on his shoulder away from the danger that is metagaming.

Posted by: Cuchulain Apr 28 2013, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Doctor @ Apr 28 2013, 02:47 PM) *
This is signified by DarkMaverick's lesser known plea to construct an NPC that was his naked adonis body carrying innocent women on his shoulder away from the danger that is metagaming.


What has been seen, cannot be unseen.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 28 2013, 08:12 PM

QUOTE (Brant @ Apr 28 2013, 01:54 PM) *
The great thing about Nexus subpaths though is that just because one person writes something doesn't mean the next Elder has to enforce it.


It's only good when the thing not being enforced shouldn't have been enforced to begin with.

The rights were meant to be permanent safeguards against future abuse, the same way the US Bill of rights are.

I mean, imagine the US where the President can just decide to ignore the Bill of Rights. Sound like a place you'd like to live?

And laugh all you want. I said years ago it was important for subpath abuses to stop because it'd lead to a declining userbase, and that's precisely what has happened. It's not so much a prediction, but common sense.


Posted by: Destyn Apr 28 2013, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 28 2013, 08:12 PM) *
It's only good when the thing not being enforced shouldn't have been enforced to begin with.

The rights were meant to be permanent safeguards against future abuse, the same way the US Bill of rights are.

I mean, imagine the US where the President can just decide to ignore the Bill of Rights. Sound like a place you'd like to live?

And laugh all you want. I said years ago it was important for subpath abuses to stop because it'd lead to a declining userbase, and that's precisely what has happened. It's not so much a prediction, but common sense.


What happens when someone buys a tank? They have the right to bear arms. Does that give them a right to own a tank? Sometimes things become outdated! Just sayin'.

Heard it on TV, had to say it. I'm not even American so I don't really care smile.gif

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 29 2013, 09:47 AM

QUOTE (Destyn @ Apr 28 2013, 08:45 PM) *
What happens when someone buys a tank? They have the right to bear arms. Does that give them a right to own a tank? Sometimes things become outdated! Just sayin'.

Heard it on TV, had to say it. I'm not even American so I don't really care smile.gif


Watch less Fox News. It's already legal for civilians to own tanks. They just require special permits if you want to drive them on the road.

Tanks are, of course, incredibly expensive and impractical. And this really doesn't have anything to do with the thread.


Posted by: Scruffy Apr 29 2013, 10:55 AM

Seems Guldar had a change of heart.

http://imgur.com/a/dXpdC

Posted by: Brant Apr 29 2013, 03:31 PM

QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 29 2013, 10:55 AM) *
Seems Guldar had a change of heart.

http://imgur.com/a/dXpdC



Posted by: Darken Apr 29 2013, 04:22 PM

THE GREAT CHONGUN DISPARITY IS OVER

MA! PA! ITS OVER! TELL THE KIDS!

Posted by: Darken Apr 29 2013, 04:22 PM

I mean triple posting, what the [Content removed]

Posted by: Darken Apr 29 2013, 04:22 PM

Just cant stop double posting, man.

Posted by: Destyn Apr 29 2013, 04:35 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 29 2013, 09:47 AM) *
Watch less Fox News. It's already legal for civilians to own tanks. They just require special permits if you want to drive them on the road.

Tanks are, of course, incredibly expensive and impractical. And this really doesn't have anything to do with the thread.


Was on CNN smile.gif And yes, I know it is legal and I think it is ridiculous that it is. No civilian should have the right to own a tank, sorry. But anyway, the point is that sometimes things which were written a long time ago tend to become out dated and don't suit the times.

Times change, and so do people. The laws and rules that govern them should change with them. Just because you wrote something way back in the day, and INSIST that it should be permanent, it shouldn't. If they gave the authority to people to make rules PERMANENT, then our subpaths would be even further down the tube then they are now.

Posted by: darkmaverick Apr 29 2013, 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Scruffy @ Apr 29 2013, 10:55 AM) *
Seems Guldar had a change of heart.

http://imgur.com/a/dXpdC


Well, I will be the first to say bravo to Guldar, and whoever else was part of the change in position.

Now, I don't understand the value of Chonguns not being on the "receiving end" of a leech (doesn't that mean strong Chonguns can't help newer Chonguns get stats?) but the big change is the last bit about C. Ryongs not being forced to give up rage just to undergo aspirant training.

I have protested that rule for years. Good to see it finally change.

Anyway, on the leeching thing. Someone said leeching was whether or not someone was "contributing" and cited the example of horsing someone in. To that, I say the idea that an Il san Warrior is somehow contributing to a group of Sa Sans because they are swinging their weapon is ridiculous. That's like just trying to put up the appearance of contributing. But once you start defining what is and isn't leeching under the vague term of "contributing", it opens up the rule to interpretation on case by case basis.

It's better to just not have the rule in the first place. Any rule that can get someone instantly kicked out of a path is prone to being used to try to get someone kicked out of a path in spite.

QUOTE (Destyn @ Apr 29 2013, 04:35 PM) *
Times change, and so do people. The laws and rules that govern them should change with them. Just because you wrote something way back in the day, and INSIST that it should be permanent, it shouldn't. If they gave the authority to people to make rules PERMANENT, then our subpaths would be even further down the tube then they are now.


I could get into a philosophical debate about why certain rules should be regarded as cornerstones by which an organization is governed and therefore not subject to tampering with, but you'd probably gloss over it.

I do agree an organization needs to be flexible, and part of that flexibility is the ability to change policies and rules. But there should be classes of rules; some changable, some not because they are viewed as so vital to the stability of the organization that without these rules it can fall apart, or at least into decay.

Of course, the current subpath system does allow for rules to be permanent. Or at least close to it. All you need to do is become Elder and then refuse to step down from power until you literally die IRL, or get close to it.

Posted by: LouisVuitton Apr 30 2013, 08:23 PM

oh thank god, I was worried about BerLin being able to leech his rogue to sa san, Now he'll be able to without having to leave the honorable knights of nexus tk. *bows*
Oh and LePetitChou will be able to leech again too. One character "CinderZ" : NO DON'T LeECh ITS AGAINST THE RULe!S IM GOING TO RED MARK YOU LEECHING MAKES NEXUS HORRIBLE then he logs on his other char..
LePetitchou: Selling leech for an overpriced amount, you pay first.

Posted by: Styledatol May 1 2013, 09:08 AM

I've never had an issue with the no-leaching rule; then again I don't really hunt - fact remains that as long as an elder in control, what he says goes. Don't like it? That's great, if there's really something wrong with a certain rule, the majority of the path will stand up, and possibly overthrow the elder - seen it happen on a few occasions in the game. To be honest though, unless you're a current member of said path, you got no bloody business deciding what goes in it, you can [Content removed] and moan about it all you want; but it does not concern anyone, least of all a failure of a human being like DM: Quit your crusade against the Chogunate, your existence in the game ranges from an annoyance to a rolling joke inside the path.

Posted by: BeffyCabeza May 2 2013, 08:05 AM

The training as a CR will be interesting to watch. I think it'll make training as a Chongun longer and more difficult, which I'm sure people will start to fuss about at some point.

And the whole thing about leeching, let's face it. Most paths are very lax, as long as the person isn't horsed in snoring, you're golden. So everyone "LET THEM LEECH" you're getting too technical. You basically can as long as your leechie's are bloody paying attention tongue.gif

Posted by: Krmit May 2 2013, 09:35 AM

Who cares, if you leech, you leech. If you don't you don't.

My personal take on it is games usually have a lot to enjoy and explore through out the course of the game. Most people hit all of these points the first or second Go-around. After that the monotony will just bore you to death.

Leeching is a part of every game. People need to deal with it.

Posted by: Destyn May 3 2013, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ Apr 29 2013, 08:24 PM) *
Of course, the current subpath system does allow for rules to be permanent. Or at least close to it. All you need to do is become Elder and then refuse to step down from power until you literally die IRL, or get close to it.


Doesn't work. It's actually pretty easy to overthrow an elder and force them down, it's happened to Spy several times in the last couple of years. So no, there are absolutely no rules that an elder himself can push on a path that are permanent. If you force things onto people and they don't like it, you will eventually get forced out of elder, through peer pressure or archons.

Posted by: Songa May 3 2013, 05:39 PM

That's why you make friends with every single person in the path, and ask them what they would want to see changed. Then you take into account everyone and offer them "great advice", pretend that you care about them, and even offer them other positions/jobs. (Usually made-up and useless ones) While listening to their ideas, you provide solutions to them that completely change their idea entirely, without them knowing it. Then they'll think you give a flying [Content removed] about them and they'll go along with anything you say. So you get away with whatever the flying [Content removed] you want while making everyone believe that they thought of it themselves.

Whose glad they never made me an Elder? LOL rolleyes.gif

But in all seriousness, who the [Content removed] cares about the following:

Leeching
Selling karma
Being trained while you are in an NPC Subpath (it really has NOTHING to do with your training and it is kind of jerky of the path to force you to lose an entire aspect of the game for your stupid subpath. Now training for two subpaths at the same time is another thing altogether and I think people got these two mixed.)
Whether you called this person fat at east gate kugnae
That you said lol once while in a hunting group

ETC

Posted by: darkmaverick May 5 2013, 02:07 PM

QUOTE (Destyn @ May 3 2013, 04:02 PM) *
Doesn't work. It's actually pretty easy to overthrow an elder and force them down, it's happened to Spy several times in the last couple of years. So no, there are absolutely no rules that an elder himself can push on a path that are permanent. If you force things onto people and they don't like it, you will eventually get forced out of elder, through peer pressure or archons.


I'm sure that is all bearing on if the Archons actually care to get involved, and given how political this game is these days I'm sure that's a special circumstances thing.

I mean, there have been Elders who have been Archons. Archon Primogens, in fact. How are you gonna force them to resign?


Posted by: Destyn May 5 2013, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ May 5 2013, 02:07 PM) *
I mean, there have been Elders who have been Archons. Archon Primogens, in fact. How are you gonna force them to resign?


That right there is a special circumstance. Obviously it's going to be harder to get these Elders out of those positions. But again, if they are causing a big stink in their path and they truly are an archon, chances are they are going to resign before they make themselves look foolish and lose their archon position.

This game is all about maintaining the care bear stance, so if a path starts an uproar there is a pretty good chance the elder will get removed. I don't really care to look, but I can remember at least 3 times in recent history where a path has gone into lockdown and a new elder was elected. It's not really a hard thing to accomplish now a day. Hell, 2 of them alone were in the Spy path alone in the last year or so.


Posted by: darkmaverick May 6 2013, 02:25 AM

QUOTE (Destyn @ May 5 2013, 07:07 PM) *
That right there is a special circumstance.


No, it's not.

Off the top of my head I can name about 5 Archons who were also Elders and abused the hell out of their positions, and even when they ceased being Archons, the RL friendships they formed with other Archons were continually leveraged over the years for personal benefit or to harass their in-game enemies.

And I would list them if I thought it wouldn't get my post deleted.

If you seriously think it's a special circumstance, you just don't know what actually goes on behind the scenes in Nexus.

Three circumstances I can recall where Archons did intervene in Elderships were Alton (Chonguns), Illios (Merchants) and Liadriel (Chonguns). Each of those situations were people who did absurd things that impacted other Archons or their friends. Granted, I haven't played in a few years so I don't keep tabs of things but chances are any situation where an Archon intervened is a situation where that Archon was having a direct issue with that Elder, and while the path may have been in an uproar that was not the deciding factor.

The Archons are not, and never have been, the friends of the community. They have always been power hungry players who, regardless of what they tell themselves to justify their behavior, have been in it for themselves and consider the role of Archon just another political position in the game for them to acquire and use to benefit their playstyles in the same way another player might try to join a subpath for hunting spells.

Posted by: Destyn May 18 2013, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (darkmaverick @ May 6 2013, 02:25 AM) *
Granted, I haven't played in a few years so I don't keep tabs of things


..I was referring to somewhat recently, not years and years ago when you actually played. When we are talking about the present, it is more applicable to talk about things that happened recently and not 10 years ago.
'

Posted by: Yeas May 24 2013, 03:35 PM

To be fair, the Elder should be accountable to the path and not use it to promote their own agenda. That being said, they should suspend their attachment to the past way of doing things to at least give it a shot.

Its not really a big deal its banned. I think its a dumb idea but meh overall.

Posted by: IamAmage Jun 18 2013, 02:35 PM

Who gives a [Content removed]. Break the rules, leech, sell characters, sell coins, bypass the filter... The game is dead, do whatever the [Content removed] you want before it's all over.

Posted by: Mazel Jun 18 2013, 02:41 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rI8zV2-Doo

Posted by: IamAmage Jun 18 2013, 02:55 PM

QUOTE (Mazel @ Jun 18 2013, 03:41 PM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rI8zV2-Doo


Pretty much.

It really is a shame, too. I used to love this game, played it all the time way back in late elementary school all the way through high school. Even into my adult years I played it between work and play time, just having fun killing mother [Content removed]ers in sire/vale or hunting. Now I'm 25 and really have no interest in this, or any, game. Most of the people that are still left playing have been around for at least a decade or more, otherwise they wouldn't still be here! I, myself, haven't played since 2012.. but I may or may not ever be back.

If I do come back, better believe I will not adhere to any [Content removed]ing rules.

Posted by: Adam Jun 18 2013, 04:32 PM

QUOTE (IamAmage @ Jun 18 2013, 02:55 PM) *
If I do come back, better believe I will not adhere to any [Content removed]ing rules.

Yeh, you [Content removed]es betta Wreckonize.

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)